If you enjoyed Guns Germs and Steel, check out "Collapse" by the same author. Gives a history of Easter Island and how the people destroyed themselves there, which is a great parallel to today and climate change denial.
-
Features
Books that dramatically changed the way you think
- Thread starter rousseau
- Start date
If you enjoyed Guns Germs and Steel, check out "Collapse" by the same author. Gives a history of Easter Island and how the people destroyed themselves there, which is a great parallel to today and climate change denial.
Underseer
Contributor
Isn't CS Lewis the originator of the "liar, lunatic or lord" argument? It's sad that people find that argument compelling.
wally
New member
The Harrad Experiment, Stranger In A Strange Land, The Hobbit books,
Lots more that don't come to mind now.
And something to keep in mind:
Unfortunately, our human instincts are much, much stronger than our logic.
Lots more that don't come to mind now.
And something to keep in mind:
Unfortunately, our human instincts are much, much stronger than our logic.
James Brown
Veteran Member
Yes, he is, in his book, Mere Christianity. Christians find the argument very compelling.
Lion IRC
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2016
- Messages
- 4,978
- Basic Beliefs
- Biblical theist
Yes, add Mere Christianity to your reading list. It might dramatically change the way you think.
Lewis' trilemma is highly contentious among anti-theists / counter-apologists.
Which is good because it promotes AvT discussion.
Lewis' trilemma is highly contentious among anti-theists / counter-apologists.
Which is good because it promotes AvT discussion.
credoconsolans
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2005
- Messages
- 2,900
- Location
- Texas
- Basic Beliefs
- neopagan leaning toward moral relativism
Actually it was destroyed with one additional line
""liar, lunatic or lord" or "just mistaken".
Sarpedon
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2002
- Messages
- 2,976
- Location
- MN, US
- Basic Beliefs
- the Philosophy of Not Giving a Damn
Using the 'lunatic' label escalates the argument by making use of a loaded term. Basically, it is a sneaky way to add emotion to the argument: and religion thrives on emotion. Instead of asking whether 'Jesus was merely synthesizing the spiritual beliefs of his time into a new, but equally incorrect system,' you go to 'are you calling Jesus crazy?!?'
Same with 'liar.' Basically Lewis forces anyone who disagrees with his argument to do it in an insulting manner. It's an old trick. It isn't intended to convert people who don't already believe, but to shore up support among believers by making them feel emotionally attacked by people who disbelieve.
Mere Christianity was another disappointment to me. I read it after it being recommended by all sorts of people, but was filled with nothing but tired and unconvincing arguments like this one. It really shows the bankruptcy of Christian Intellectualism, especially when he basically comes out and says 'these arguments are all well and good, but the real reason to believe in Christ is that you will go to Hell if you don't.'
For myself, when I started reading the religious books of other religions, it was eye opening. Many were as bad as the bible. Some were worse, and a few were better. They showed me that there was nothing unique or special about the Bible. They also showed how much religion depends on the emotional connection. I found the Bhagavad Gita and the Tao Te Ching much better than the Bible, but I did not become a Hindu or Taoist, because I lacked the emotional connection to them. I could intellectually note that they were much better books, but that wasn't enough to make me take them up.
Same with 'liar.' Basically Lewis forces anyone who disagrees with his argument to do it in an insulting manner. It's an old trick. It isn't intended to convert people who don't already believe, but to shore up support among believers by making them feel emotionally attacked by people who disbelieve.
Mere Christianity was another disappointment to me. I read it after it being recommended by all sorts of people, but was filled with nothing but tired and unconvincing arguments like this one. It really shows the bankruptcy of Christian Intellectualism, especially when he basically comes out and says 'these arguments are all well and good, but the real reason to believe in Christ is that you will go to Hell if you don't.'
For myself, when I started reading the religious books of other religions, it was eye opening. Many were as bad as the bible. Some were worse, and a few were better. They showed me that there was nothing unique or special about the Bible. They also showed how much religion depends on the emotional connection. I found the Bhagavad Gita and the Tao Te Ching much better than the Bible, but I did not become a Hindu or Taoist, because I lacked the emotional connection to them. I could intellectually note that they were much better books, but that wasn't enough to make me take them up.
laughing dog
Contributor
I can think of 4 books that really caused me at the time to look at the world differently:
1) To Kill a Mockingbird - Read this in 7th grade. It made me think about we view people who look different from us. And how life can really be unfair.
2) The Structures of Scientific Revolutions - Changed my entire view of the history of the advancement of knowledge and how we look at the creation of ideas and knowledge.
3) Kindly Inquisitors - Made me realize how pervasive the attack on free thought would always be.
4) On Bullshit - the distinction between lying and bullshitting is crucial in understanding the world around us (especially today).
1) To Kill a Mockingbird - Read this in 7th grade. It made me think about we view people who look different from us. And how life can really be unfair.
2) The Structures of Scientific Revolutions - Changed my entire view of the history of the advancement of knowledge and how we look at the creation of ideas and knowledge.
3) Kindly Inquisitors - Made me realize how pervasive the attack on free thought would always be.
4) On Bullshit - the distinction between lying and bullshitting is crucial in understanding the world around us (especially today).
credoconsolans
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2005
- Messages
- 2,900
- Location
- Texas
- Basic Beliefs
- neopagan leaning toward moral relativism
Not necessarily.
Lot of people in a small town thought an angel had come down from heaven in the guise of a Catholic priest to comfort a girl trapped in a wrecked car.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/07/angel-crash-missouri/2630227/
Were they all lunatics?
No, they were just mistaken.
It's interesting how the changes of many of our members seem to involve shifts away from Christianity. Guess that'd more likely be the case when your parents do their best to indoctrinate when you're young.
I went to church when I was little, but theology was never forced on us, and I guess I always assumed that Christianity was just a nice story, even as an adolescent. So materialism was my starting point, and most of my time since then has been spent trying to map the world together with that basic assumption.
I went to church when I was little, but theology was never forced on us, and I guess I always assumed that Christianity was just a nice story, even as an adolescent. So materialism was my starting point, and most of my time since then has been spent trying to map the world together with that basic assumption.
Underseer
Contributor
Honestly, I can't think of any. Of all the times I had a large change in what I thought, it came from arguing with someone I didn't agree with rather than a book. Some of those things happened on these forums (well, on previous incarnations of these forums, such as Internet Infidels).
bilby
Fair dinkum thinkum
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2007
- Messages
- 34,074
- Gender
- He/Him
- Basic Beliefs
- Strong Atheist
Asimov's Guide to Science. It was a two volume set: Vol 1 covered the Physical Sciences and Vol 2 the Biological Sciences, and as a child it gave me a fascination with science and its applications that I have kept to this day.
The How and Why Wonder Book of World War II
This book was my introduction to the Second World War:
It began my interest in the war, which then became a more general interest in 20th century power struggles.
1000 Fantastic Facts
Anne McKie
Along with another called The Big Book of Facts, this book introduced me to a wide variety of subjects. I read both of them dozens of times. As the cover shows, it covered subjects as diverse as humans history, natural history, science, mathematics and superstition.
This book was my introduction to the Second World War:
It began my interest in the war, which then became a more general interest in 20th century power struggles.
1000 Fantastic Facts
Anne McKie
Along with another called The Big Book of Facts, this book introduced me to a wide variety of subjects. I read both of them dozens of times. As the cover shows, it covered subjects as diverse as humans history, natural history, science, mathematics and superstition.
ronburgundy
Contributor
This was the first book I thought of too. I read it at age 20 before entering college (I took 5 years off btw high school and college).
I think it probably could be a worthwhile read even a typical college grad biology major, simply for its emphasis upon the gene-level selection rather than organism level. IOW, a genetic variant could gain prevalence in a species even without direct net benefits to its own survival. This allows for what seems like unselfish, self-sacrificing behavior by an organism that has net benefits for its kin group, because since its kin is more likely than non-kin to have the same variant, then taking risks to oneself than on average yield net reward to one's offspring and kin will select for the genes that produce that risk taking behavior. I think that back 40 years ago when it was written, this framing of evolution was uncommon in most undergrad bio courses.
On the one hand, the book was written for generally educated novices to the inner working of evolutionary theory. That means some over-simplifications often in the form of metaphors and analogies. OTOH, those metaphors and analogies can be useful even to non-novices because they are forms of abstractions and abstraction is often essential in the application of knowledge to specific situations and to communicating ideas to others. The title itself is a metaphor, merely pointing out that its the genes impacts on its own probability of replication wherever it occurs (whether within the acting organism or in other organisms) that will determine which genetic variations are "selected" and which are not. Nearly all the criticisms of this metaphor miss the point that it is a metaphor and not meant to imply that genes have the sentience to be "selfish" or that the environment interacts directly with genes rather than their phenotypic effects. His critiques also wrongly assert that his theory implies 1:1 gene-phenotype effects and ignores environment-dependent genetic expression. I always thought that was a wrongheaded interpretation stemming from taking the "selfish" metaphor too literally. There have been vacuous fights over whether it is the gene or the phenotype being "selected", which stem from taking the metaphor of "selected" too literally. Genes are what are getting replicated at varying rates, so ultimately they are being "selected", even its their phenotype effects that determines the selection by determining replication rates.
I think its worth reading the book, then reading the arguments, then reading those who point out that the arguments are over nothing. Clearly even many of the world's foremost evolutionary experts had something still to learn about the limits of the "selection" metaphor.
ronburgundy
Contributor
Besides Selfish Gene, other highly impactful books were:
All Quiet on The Western Front: Read in 10th grade and led me to write my first poem and take a more humanistic rather than nationalistic view of war.
Catcher in the Rye
How to Think About Weird Things: A great intro to critical and skeptical thinking that was part of my "Logic and Reasoning" course as an Undergrad. This was a huge gateway for me towards understanding that science was an approach to evaluating ideas and not just a set of declared truths by authorities in lab coats.
Alan Watt's "The Book: On the Taboo against knowing who you are". Watt's was a philosopher, a great writer, and distilled some of the most thoughtful and useful aspects of Eastern philosophy (Hindi, Taoism, and Buddhism) into ways that were both humorous and could make sense to a Western mindset. I read it just at the right time at age 20, when I was rejecting all of religion that I knew (Abrahamic monotheism) and seeking a new perspective that was more about finding the humor and absurdity of life and not in making moral judgments or trying to use supernatural woo to explain the natural world. Watt's philosophy emphasized separateness and the self as illusions that ignored inseparable and co-dependent nature of what was "inside" vs. "outside" each "thing" and the permeable membranes (and sensory inputs for organisms) that made the inside and outside of oneself a constantly changing and interchanging event, with our sense of self a constructed illusion of stability that isn't actually true but is a useful illusion for our organism to have. It mostly holds up to modern science (from physics to psychology). For me, it allowed my to view life as a kind of entertaining ride or work of fiction, that I could take seriously and really get into because its fun to do that, but if being serious got painful, just step back and realize, "oh wait, this doesn't actually matter beyond me pretending that it does." It also helped lead me to a passion for science as a form of self-awareness, realizing that the very real physical entanglement I had with everything in the Universe meant that understanding any part of it was to understand what, what, how, and why I was.
I also highly recommend Watt's other books and talks you can find online. Note, his works will have a more positive impact if you don't go seeking answers or take a literal stance and look for factual "errors", but rather treat it more as artistic expression and poetry that is "right" more on an emotional and metaphorical level (though it does get much right in a scientific sense, but at a very abstract conceptual level). Some claim the said can be said about the Bible and Koran, but I disagree. They are more hateful, closeminded and authoritarian even on a "artistic", emotional, or metaphorical level, and much of what is factually wrong (e.g., miracles) was intended to be taken as literal occurrences, otherwise it fails to show the power and "beyond-nature" aspects of God, which was the point of those writings.
All Quiet on The Western Front: Read in 10th grade and led me to write my first poem and take a more humanistic rather than nationalistic view of war.
Catcher in the Rye
How to Think About Weird Things: A great intro to critical and skeptical thinking that was part of my "Logic and Reasoning" course as an Undergrad. This was a huge gateway for me towards understanding that science was an approach to evaluating ideas and not just a set of declared truths by authorities in lab coats.
Alan Watt's "The Book: On the Taboo against knowing who you are". Watt's was a philosopher, a great writer, and distilled some of the most thoughtful and useful aspects of Eastern philosophy (Hindi, Taoism, and Buddhism) into ways that were both humorous and could make sense to a Western mindset. I read it just at the right time at age 20, when I was rejecting all of religion that I knew (Abrahamic monotheism) and seeking a new perspective that was more about finding the humor and absurdity of life and not in making moral judgments or trying to use supernatural woo to explain the natural world. Watt's philosophy emphasized separateness and the self as illusions that ignored inseparable and co-dependent nature of what was "inside" vs. "outside" each "thing" and the permeable membranes (and sensory inputs for organisms) that made the inside and outside of oneself a constantly changing and interchanging event, with our sense of self a constructed illusion of stability that isn't actually true but is a useful illusion for our organism to have. It mostly holds up to modern science (from physics to psychology). For me, it allowed my to view life as a kind of entertaining ride or work of fiction, that I could take seriously and really get into because its fun to do that, but if being serious got painful, just step back and realize, "oh wait, this doesn't actually matter beyond me pretending that it does." It also helped lead me to a passion for science as a form of self-awareness, realizing that the very real physical entanglement I had with everything in the Universe meant that understanding any part of it was to understand what, what, how, and why I was.
I also highly recommend Watt's other books and talks you can find online. Note, his works will have a more positive impact if you don't go seeking answers or take a literal stance and look for factual "errors", but rather treat it more as artistic expression and poetry that is "right" more on an emotional and metaphorical level (though it does get much right in a scientific sense, but at a very abstract conceptual level). Some claim the said can be said about the Bible and Koran, but I disagree. They are more hateful, closeminded and authoritarian even on a "artistic", emotional, or metaphorical level, and much of what is factually wrong (e.g., miracles) was intended to be taken as literal occurrences, otherwise it fails to show the power and "beyond-nature" aspects of God, which was the point of those writings.
Last edited:
ronburgundy
Contributor
Oh, since I haven't blathered enough in my prior 2 posts, let me add Neil Postman's "Amusing ourselves to death" to my list.
I thank the night-school community college instructor of my "Critical Reading and Writing" course I took in my years off between high school and returning full time to college. It is a critique of the modern entertainment culture, arguing that television is inherently less compatible with emphasizing rational argument than the printed word and has ushered in a culture where people trade away their own rights and interests in exchange for mindless amusement (akin to Huxley's Brave New World). It has corroded our politics and allowed emotionally manipulative images and sound bites to have more impact on elections and policy than substance. He correctly, IMO, argues that this danger of commercialism replacing reasoned discourse is a far greater threat than the totalitarian government stealing our rights and forbiding our rational thought (IOW, Huxley had it more right than Orwell).
The impact on me went way beyond this media/social critique. In the book, the author discusses the Enlightenment and Thomas Paine, and The Age of Reason. He discusses how he was a critical but oft forgotten true founding father of secular democracy. That led me to research Thomas Paine, with led me to Deism and the Enlightenment foundation of the US more generally. I wrote my thesis for the course on that topic. For the first time since before I was old enough to think rationally, I felt a sense of connection and pride to my country beyond my accident of being born a citizen of it. This also parlayed into my growing affinity for science and its critical place in a secular progressive democracy which depended on rational scientific thought to realize its potential.
Finally, it is also coincidental that a year after reading this book, my long-time favorite song writer and musician, Roger Waters of Pink Floyd released his 3rd solo album of almost the same title "Amused to death" that Water's says was inspired by the book and has a theme of a monkey flipping through tv channels to see what has become of human civilization.
Can't you see?
It all makes perfect sense,
expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, schillings, and pence.
When you add it all up
The tears and marrowbone
There's an ounce of gold
And an ounce of pride in each ledger
And the Germans killed the Jews
And the Jews killed the Arabs
And Arabs killed the hostages
And that is the news
And is it any wonder
That the monkey's confused
He said Mama Mama
The President's a fool
Why do I have to keep reading
These technical manuals
And the joint chiefs of staff
And the brokers on Wall Street said
Don't make us laugh
You're smart kid
Time is linear
Memory's a stranger
History's for fools
Man is a tool in the hands
Of the great God Almighty
And they gave him command
Of a nuclear submarine
And sent him back in search of
The Garden of Eden
I thank the night-school community college instructor of my "Critical Reading and Writing" course I took in my years off between high school and returning full time to college. It is a critique of the modern entertainment culture, arguing that television is inherently less compatible with emphasizing rational argument than the printed word and has ushered in a culture where people trade away their own rights and interests in exchange for mindless amusement (akin to Huxley's Brave New World). It has corroded our politics and allowed emotionally manipulative images and sound bites to have more impact on elections and policy than substance. He correctly, IMO, argues that this danger of commercialism replacing reasoned discourse is a far greater threat than the totalitarian government stealing our rights and forbiding our rational thought (IOW, Huxley had it more right than Orwell).
The impact on me went way beyond this media/social critique. In the book, the author discusses the Enlightenment and Thomas Paine, and The Age of Reason. He discusses how he was a critical but oft forgotten true founding father of secular democracy. That led me to research Thomas Paine, with led me to Deism and the Enlightenment foundation of the US more generally. I wrote my thesis for the course on that topic. For the first time since before I was old enough to think rationally, I felt a sense of connection and pride to my country beyond my accident of being born a citizen of it. This also parlayed into my growing affinity for science and its critical place in a secular progressive democracy which depended on rational scientific thought to realize its potential.
Finally, it is also coincidental that a year after reading this book, my long-time favorite song writer and musician, Roger Waters of Pink Floyd released his 3rd solo album of almost the same title "Amused to death" that Water's says was inspired by the book and has a theme of a monkey flipping through tv channels to see what has become of human civilization.
Can't you see?
It all makes perfect sense,
expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, schillings, and pence.
When you add it all up
The tears and marrowbone
There's an ounce of gold
And an ounce of pride in each ledger
And the Germans killed the Jews
And the Jews killed the Arabs
And Arabs killed the hostages
And that is the news
And is it any wonder
That the monkey's confused
He said Mama Mama
The President's a fool
Why do I have to keep reading
These technical manuals
And the joint chiefs of staff
And the brokers on Wall Street said
Don't make us laugh
You're smart kid
Time is linear
Memory's a stranger
History's for fools
Man is a tool in the hands
Of the great God Almighty
And they gave him command
Of a nuclear submarine
And sent him back in search of
The Garden of Eden
DrZoidberg
Contributor
This one is relative since it matters what beliefs and information you had prior to the reading of said book.
The Human Genome
Matt Ridley
The Red Queen
Matt Ridley
Collapse
Jarred Diamond
Guns, Germs and Steel
Jarred Diamond
History of God
Karen Armstrong
Thinking fast. Thinking slow
Daniel Khaneman
Tipping Point
Malcolm Gladwell
The basic high school philosophy course text book for Sweden. Also the basic high school history text book for Sweden. Gave me an overview that gets lost when only looking at details.
The Big Book of Alcolics Anonymous
This one is great to understand any compulsive behaviour we have. Not just alcoholism. This is incredibly well written. And valuable to anyone. Not just people with problems. Couldn't recommend it highly enough.
The Human Genome
Matt Ridley
The Red Queen
Matt Ridley
Collapse
Jarred Diamond
Guns, Germs and Steel
Jarred Diamond
History of God
Karen Armstrong
Thinking fast. Thinking slow
Daniel Khaneman
Tipping Point
Malcolm Gladwell
The basic high school philosophy course text book for Sweden. Also the basic high school history text book for Sweden. Gave me an overview that gets lost when only looking at details.
The Big Book of Alcolics Anonymous
This one is great to understand any compulsive behaviour we have. Not just alcoholism. This is incredibly well written. And valuable to anyone. Not just people with problems. Couldn't recommend it highly enough.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
That one is great. Forgot about that one.