Both the Israelis and the Palestinians suck

[font]

As long as land can be owned and people can claim rights to it such problems will always remain.

It's not about land, it's about jewish state.

 

[font]

I don't see any chances for the solution in the foreseeable future.

So why should either Israel or Gaza stop fighting then? What's in it for them?

For palestinians the question is why stop fighting, for jews - why start fighting.

 

[funinspace]

It looks to me like they deserve each other.

One sad reality is that they are also very closely related genetically to each other. It is kind of like feuding distant cousins...

One of the key problems is West Bank settlements:
7/6/2014
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-...cils-build-three-outposts-in-West-Bank-361618

In an unusual move, the Gush Etzion Regional Council on Friday built two outposts within the boundaries of the settlements of Tekoa and Bat Ayin. The Kiryat Arba Council also built one on the outskirts of its settlement.

In all three cases, the councils placed modular homes on state land in what they hope will become neighborhoods of the three settlements.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/10/17/drastic-hike-in-israelisettlementgrowth.html

Construction on new homes in Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank spiked by 70 percent in the first half of 2013, an Israeli NGO reported Thursday — raising worries that peace talks, which renewed in July after a three-year lull due to ongoing disputes over settlement building, could falter.

According to Peace Now, which tracks settlement activity in Palestinian territory Israel captured in the war of 1967, construction began on 1,708 settlement homes from January to June of this year, compared with 995 during the same period in 2012.

Moreover, it said that 61 percent of the construction took place in isolated settlements outside larger settlement blocs that Israel has said it intends to keep in any future land-for-peace deal.

Settlements built on Palestinian territories occupied by Israel, including East Jerusalem, are deemed illegal by the United Nations, and insistence that Israel demonstrate good faith by halting such construction had been a key reason for the Palestinian side declining to reenter peace talks over the past three years.

An estimated 500,000 Israelis currently live in fortified Jewish-only settlements in the Palestinian territories, home to 2.5 million Palestinians.

Yeah, the Palestinians are such dirty dogs, for not rolling over and accepting living in the world’s largest prison, Gaza Mad Max style. Abbas and the PA have partially tried appeasement in the West Bank (WB), to no avail as settlement growth keeps going like an energizer bunny...

Neither side with power really wants peace. I can’t see how the Palestinians will become receptive to any long term peace as long as they are continually being squeezed out of the WB bit by bit. They have been used and abused by the Arab world as pawns against Israel in the past. Jordan certainly doesn’t want several million Palestinians moving in. Though I imagine that someday, Palestinians will rule Jordan, as they make up a majority there already between refugees and Jordanian citizens. Between Israel, the WB, Gaza, and Jordan there are roughly 13 million Palestinians. There are a little over 6 million Jews in Israel. It is a sad situation all round.

The only thing I think will change the dynamics sufficiently, is if the US stops supporting Israel 110%. Sure Israel won the 1967 war, but the modern world doesn’t look too kindly on a perpetual land grab. The only thing keeping the lid on it to date, has been the US’s nearly unconditional support, and Israel’s slow pace of taking. The difference in US perspective on the Israeli-Palestinian land grab versus the Russian-Crimean land grab could fill the Grand Canyon…

 

[font]

In an unusual move, the Gush Etzion Regional Council on Friday built two outposts within the boundaries of the settlements of Tekoa and Bat Ayin. The Kiryat Arba Council also built one on the outskirts of its settlement.

You forgot to point out why it was done:
"the building was in response to the Palestinian killing of three teenagers last month".
If the buildings are illegal they will be soon removed by israeli authority.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If foreigners come into your city and tell you to leave your house, because its theirs now, because they say so, and you say you don't want to leave, does that make you a combatant and fair game for extermination?

You're assuming things not in evidence here--the presence of an army doesn't mean property seizures.

 

[funinspace]

In an unusual move, the Gush Etzion Regional Council on Friday built two outposts within the boundaries of the settlements of Tekoa and Bat Ayin. The Kiryat Arba Council also built one on the outskirts of its settlement.

You forgot to point out why it was done:
"the building was in response to the Palestinian killing of three teenagers last month".

ROTFLMAO....yeah "the reason". You grabbed this one sentence out of the whole post, and that is all you saw...so sad. The reason, the reason, the reason....hate hate hate....blah blah blah

Babble babble bitch bitch
Rebel rebel party party
Sex sex sex and don't forget the "violence"
Blah blah blah got your lovey-dovey sad-and-lonely
Stick your STUPID SLOGAN in:
Everybody sing along. -- Marilyn Manson

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And why isn't something like that all over the history books?

And note that you're proving they were combatants--civilians would have no reason to defend themselves as they wouldn't have been under threat.

What in the world are you talking about? You do realize in those days the guys attacking Palestinian villages were members of the Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah, right? You remember that the Irgun and Lehi were terrorists, and their joining the quasi-terrorist Haganah to attack villages was terrorism, right?

Civilians have every right to defend themselves when terrorists attack, and the fact those same attackers later returned and murdered 75 men in cold blood proves the civilians were right to fear them.

You're missing my point. I'm saying that had the events actually happened they would have been #2 in the list of massacres of Arabs. It's not there. Thus I believe the event either didn't happen or is being greatly exaggerated.

ETA: Here's the thing that really bothers me about these discussions.

If the events tupac chopra described had happened to Jews there would be no disagreement between us that is was an atrocity. There would be no disagreement between us that the people who did it were terrorists and murderers. But since it was done by Zionists and the victim were Palestinians you trot out this inane argument that the villagers were the guilty party because they fought their attackers.

1) I'm not saying they were the guilty party. I'm saying that if they attacked they weren't civilians.

2) The absence of the event from the history books makes me think it didn't happen in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

As long as land can be owned and people can claim rights to it such problems will always remain.

It's not about land, it's about jewish state.

Exactly. The whole conflict has been about religion from day 1. The Muslims went apeshit at the thought of losing land they considered conquered.

 

[font]

You forgot to point out why it was done:
"the building was in response to the Palestinian killing of three teenagers last month".

ROTFLMAO....yeah "the reason". You grabbed this one sentence out of the whole post, and that is all

For you reasons don't matter? OK, I got it.

 

[funinspace]

ROTFLMAO....yeah "the reason". You grabbed this one sentence out of the whole post, and that is all

For you reasons don't matter? OK, I got it.

I didn’t even try to engage your “reason” as I provided that link from Israel to show that the settlement expansion is part of a continuum that has not stopped. It is a 40 year old issue/problem, and you think these 3 murders are relevant to what I was posting...again so sad. The second link and following chart, describes the decades old encroachment and taking of Palestinian land that the UN and many countries considers illegal.

Reference showing that it is more than just the UN...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.603030

“Israeli settlements are illegal under international law, constitute an obstacle to peace and threaten to make a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict impossible,” the statement read. “The EU and its Member States will not recognize any changes to the pre-1967 borders, including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties,” it stated.

 

[font]

I didn’t even try to engage your “reason”

My "reason"? Three killed teenagers..
It's very unfortunate I cannot use some appropriate expressions from my native language..

 

[Jayjay]

I didn’t even try to engage your “reason”

My "reason"? Three killed teenagers..
It's very unfortunate I cannot use some appropriate expressions from my native language..

What logical connection is there between the kidnapping incident and expanding the settlements?

Are Palestinians also entitled to, say, start building settlements in Israel for every Palestinian that is killed? According to your logic, since 3 dead Israelis mean 3 new outposts, Palestinians are now entitled to set up 1000-1500 new outposts inside Israel...

 

[funinspace]

Wow, when one thinks the stinking pile of pig shit can't get any worse...someone does something like this...

Article that is quickly retracted; but doesn't quite die on the Wild, Wild, Web.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-01/genocide-permissible-muses-times-israel-promptly-retracts

When Genocide Is Permissible?

I will conclude with a question for all the humanitarians out there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu clearly stated at the outset of this incursion that his objective is to restore a sustainable quiet for the citizens of Israel. We have already established that it is the responsibility of every government to ensure the safety and security of its people. If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals?

 

[Arctish]

What in the world are you talking about? You do realize in those days the guys attacking Palestinian villages were members of the Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah, right? You remember that the Irgun and Lehi were terrorists, and their joining the quasi-terrorist Haganah to attack villages was terrorism, right?

Civilians have every right to defend themselves when terrorists attack, and the fact those same attackers later returned and murdered 75 men in cold blood proves the civilians were right to fear them.

You're missing my point. I'm saying that had the events actually happened they would have been #2 in the list of massacres of Arabs. It's not there. Thus I believe the event either didn't happen or is being greatly exaggerated.

Instead of looking for minor discrepancies, try looking for the sequence of events and the manner in which those men were murdered. If you do that, you will soon come across reports of the Safsaf Massacre.

The reports say up to 70 men were killed, tupac chopra's friend said the number killed was 75. The reports and his friend both say it happened in 1948, after a fight, and that the men were lined up and shot. The report says 4 women were raped, including a 14 year old girl.

It sounds like the friend's grandfather was from Safsaf, and that massacre is the second most bloody on the list of massacres that year.

ETA: Here's the thing that really bothers me about these discussions.

If the events tupac chopra described had happened to Jews there would be no disagreement between us that is was an atrocity. There would be no disagreement between us that the people who did it were terrorists and murderers. But since it was done by Zionists and the victim were Palestinians you trot out this inane argument that the villagers were the guilty party because they fought their attackers.

1) I'm not saying they were the guilty party. I'm saying that if they attacked they weren't civilians.

You're saying if Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah fighters attacked then that means the villagers weren't civilians? The village was a military encampment and the children were, what, cadets?

If I post a report of a Jewish village coming under attack and the men fighting back, losing, and being massacred, are you going to argue that their fighting back proves they weren't civilians, either?

2) The absence of the event from the history books makes me think it didn't happen in the first place.

If the village was Safsaf, it's there all right. The grandfather's unconfirmed number differs slightly from the confirmed dead, but the 70 men shot and 4 women raped are all in the same category called "victims of the massacre"

 

[untermensche]

"We gave those little Palestinians such a fine ghetto to live in."

"And yet they still complain and attack us."

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reports say up to 70 men were killed, tupac chopra's friend said the number killed was 75. The reports and his friend both say it happened in 1948, after a fight, and that the men were lined up and shot. The report says 4 women were raped, including a 14 year old girl.

Ok, exaggerated.

 

[Arctish]

The reports say up to 70 men were killed, tupac chopra's friend said the number killed was 75. The reports and his friend both say it happened in 1948, after a fight, and that the men were lined up and shot. The report says 4 women were raped, including a 14 year old girl.

Ok, exaggerated.

No. Different sources report slightly different numbers of victims. The fact remains that Irgun and Lehi terrorists working with the quasi-terrorist paramilitary Haganah attacked Safsaf. They sustained losses, but ultimately prevailed. They rounded up scores of men, tied their hands behind their backs, and shot them. They also raped several women.

tupac chopra posted this:

It looks to me like they deserve each other.

I had dinner two nights ago with a friend of mine of Palestinian descent. In 1948 her grandfathers village was invaded by Israelis. the village defended itself as best it could and the Israelis suffered some casualties. The Israelis returned and lined up 75 men from the village and shot them.

How would you feel if someone invaded where you lived and started killing people?

Last night there was a meeting in the town I live in about Palestine. people want to organise some fund raising for the poor people there. My friend was there and another Palestinian man. His grandfather fought on the side of the British in World war 2 and he was captured and taken to Germany as a prisoner of war.
After the war in much the same way the same thing happen to his village.

No one deserves to have happen to them what happened to the Palestinians

It appears you disagree with the premise that no one deserves to have happen to them what happened to the Palestinians. You apparently believe there are people who deserve to be massacred, and that it's based on whether or not they take up arms. So my question to you is this: would you buy what you're selling? If I post a report of a Jewish shtetl coming under attack by a paramilitary force, the Jews taking up arms but losing the fight, and the winners massacring scores of them, would you argue that the Jews deserved it? Or is this something that only applies to Palestinians and Muslims?

 

[DrZoidberg]

You constantly confuse nationality and religion. Do you actually understand what you are speaking about?

Now you're just hiding behind the fact that Jewish religious symbols are both national symbols and religious symbols to avoid answering.

In it's founding laws it's many times referred to as a Jewish state.

Jewish and democratic state. Just try be a little bit correct.

Yes. But not a Palestinian/Jewish state. Only Jewish.

"The Law of Return" is not extended to Muslims.

Muslims have plenty countries to live. Jews have only one.

Palestinians also only have one. Now they have a fraction of one. I think it's you who have a trouble telling the difference of nation and religion. Have you noticed how Palestinians aren't welcome anywhere else in the Muslim world?

Palestine used to be a country for both Jews and Palestinian (Muslims). It needs to go back to being that if you ever want peace. The mixed national identity needs to be reflected in the constitution and it's symbols. The law of return can't only be offered to Jews alone.

A very old argument I've heard many times is that many Jews left places like Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and settled in Israel. In their minds they'd made a fair trade. But the Arabs in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan said "thank you" free land that we're keeping and not giving to Palestinians. And Palestinians ended up getting nothing. It wasn't a fair trade. You can't treat Muslims as one interchangeable whole. Muslim/Arab nationalism has always been complete bollocks. Never been more than empty words.

it is for discussion.

No, it isn't. It is a fact. Just try to live with it.

ha ha ha... never mind what I'm cool with. I'm not the one being targeted with suicide bombs. It's the Palestinians you need to convince.

It's also stupid attitude. You know for a fact that Palestinians don't agree. There's no point holding that position. If you do, you're up for an eternal war. That frankly... you've brought upon yourself.

And as long as Israelis keep pretending...

As long as you keep repeating this BS you more and more show signs of common anti-semitic syndrome. You just cannot understand very simple fact: today jews decide their fate.Yes, as long as 2000 years jews were fully dependent from other people. But now it is over. Israel is not and will not be like Europe where jews today are afraid exposing their national identity. Just forget about it.

ha ha... that's pathetic. I guess my Israeli Jewish ex-wife also is anti-semtic?

At this point I'm actually against both sides in the Palestine/Israel conflict. None have my sympathy. I don't think either of them deserve the land. Both are fucking nuts and behave like douchebags. Maybe the UN should take it back and give it to the Inuits or something.

 

[tupac chopra]

Yes, as long as 2000 years jews were fully dependent from other people..

Today the Zionists are fully dependent on the USA. Israel does not pay it's own way in life they are a sponge on America.

 

[tupac chopra]

As long as land can be owned and people can claim rights to it such problems will always remain.

It's not about land, it's about jewish state.

Why should jews have their own state? Should Methodists have their own state too? Are jewish people retarded in some way that means they can't fit in?

 

[font]

It's not about land, it's about jewish state.

Why should jews have their own state? Should Methodists have their own state too? Are jewish people retarded in some way that means they can't fit in?

Do those Methodists consider themselves as a people? Have they a history as a people? Do they want be a people living in their own country? Are they ready to build their country and defend it? If all answers are "yes" my answer definitely is "yes".
And it doesn't metter that I have no idea who are these Methodists..