Both the Israelis and the Palestinians suck

[font]

Yes, anti-semitism is a problem here. The old Nazism from the 30'ies never really went away. Anti-semitism isn't on the rise. It's been steady on the extreme fringes of society.

In this case I agree with you. The postwar shock is over (may be excluding Germany) and Europe is the same Europe.. The disgusting "modern society" is on its way to nowhere..

 

[font]

Do those Methodists consider themselves as a people? Have they a history as a people? Do they want be a people living in their own country? Are they ready to build their country and defend it? If all answers are "yes" my answer definitely is "yes".
And it doesn't matter that I have no idea who are these Methodists..

The Palestinians are a people, and they have much more connection to Palestine than European jews, some of whom even have blonde hair and blue eyes.
According to your logic it's the Palestinians who should be in Palestine

Not correct.
One of my preconditions is "Are they ready to build their country and defend it?". Palestinians don't demonstrate will to build their state but rather to destroy jewish one. Until it is so my answer is "no".
Anyway it's only hypothetical because palestinians already are in Palestine and already have their own state.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yes, anti-semitism is a problem here. The old Nazism from the 30'ies never really went away. Anti-semitism isn't on the rise. It's been steady on the extreme fringes of society.

But I'd rather be a Jew than an Arab in Sweden. The chances of being targetted in a racist attack are infinitely higher if you sport Islamic symbols or just look like you might. That type of hate crime is on the rise.

Interesting development is that the Swedish nazi party now embrace homosexuals. Which I have a hard time understanding. But there you have it.

That is interesting. What is driving the Swedish Nazi party? I would have guessed that racist attacks against Islamic people would be by far right Christians in Europe?

Well... the same thing driving nationalism anywhere. Idiocy. It's unemployed losers (often with substance abuse problems) who feel the need to blame their predicament on somebody else than themselves. That was the driver that put Hitler to power in Germany. Same nonsense has been at the root of Nazism (and all racism) since forever. But people who feel they have nothing to lose are dangerous. And they often commit violent crimes. Lash out like children as some kind of perceived enemy.

Christians in Sweden are not the problem. They are very few and a rather pathetic lot. We have very little problems with religion in general. I think it's safe to call Sweden a fully atheistic country.

I think the reasons why Swedish Nazis now embrace homosexuals is because extremist Muslims are so anti-gay. And since everything Muslims are for is evil, ergo homosexuality is good. That's just me speculating freely. I have no idea if this really is the reason. It could be many things really. Since gays got equal marriage rights they've been rushing to get married, and have ended up in some sort of bizarre status of upholding heterosexual circa 1950'ies norms way above straight people. So Swedish gays can often come across as more squeaky clean than straights today. And since racism has zero substance. Only superficiality. This could explain it.

Here's the Swedish Nazi parties homepage. If anybody cares. You read it using google translate.
https://www.svenskarnasparti.se/

 

[DrZoidberg]

The silly thing with atheistic Nazis is that... well.... unless you're a Christian there's not even the most flimsy pretext to hate Jews. The Nazi animosity toward Jews came from it's Christians...only. Back when the Thule society was mostly mystics and Pagans anti-semitism could not be found. It was only when the Nazi party was formed from it, and went mainstream and starting attracting large numbers Christians that the anti-semtism started showing up. It even went so far that the Thule societies informal leader (and certainly it's ideological leader) Sebottendorff got bumped for his refusal to accept anti-semitism.

Well... who would have thunk that uneducated bruisers would hold illogical beliefs?

 

[Sabine Grant]

Today the Zionists are fully dependent on the USA. Israel does not pay it's own way in life they are a sponge on America.

The amount of aid they get from us is a small % of their budget and most if it comes right back to our defense contractors--in other words, it's mostly corporate welfare.

Now, the Palestinians are getting about half of their GNP in aid. How about cutting 1% off that for every round that heads towards Israel?

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, as long as 2000 years jews were fully dependent from other people..

Today the Zionists are fully dependent on the USA. Israel does not pay it's own way in life they are a sponge on America.

The amount of aid they get from us is a small % of their budget and most if it comes right back to our defense contractors--in other words, it's mostly corporate welfare.

Now, the Palestinians are getting about half of their GNP in aid. How about cutting 1% off that for every round that heads towards Israel?

- - - Updated - - -

French Jews are afraid to "expose their national identity"?(since you mentioned "Europe") Being French Jews, they are usually French citizens. The only time my father was afraid of revealing his Jewish ancestry was during the German occupation under the Vichy Government. France being my country of origin, I can assure you that French Jews are not afraid of being known as Jews. Most of our French Jews are represented within the White Collar working class. They occupy professions such as lawyers, physicians, business owners etc... and are far from longing to emigrate to Israel. The reason being is that they feel far more comfortable living in a secular nation and a secularism secured by the 1905 French Secular Laws to where they know there is no way religion will influence legislation. There is no law hanging over their heads restricting their driving on the Sabbath. They actually enjoy far more individual liberty than they would in Israel, a state with theocratic blue prints.

Let me suggest you read this article regarding those "blue prints" which IMO remain a deterrent to millions of Jews citizens of other nations and have no desire to reside in a "Jewish State" :

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/we-must-stop-israel-from-becoming-a-theocracy-1.371671

You continue to pretend that France is all sweetness and light--

No, I am not. I am demonstrating the reality that secular minded Jews who represent the VAST majority of French Jews have NO desire to move to Israel due to its theocratic blue prints. And as to any claims that French Jews are somehow afraid to manifest their identity while Font seems to think that "1200" polled French Jews from which 40% (meaning less than 600) are afraid to wear items identifying them as Jews supports his original claim, it appears you and Font need to educate yourselves as to the actual status of Jewish communities in France, how organized those communities are, are culturally vibrant they are and certainly not afraid to manifest their Jewish identity:

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/communities/show?id=98

Further, anyone familiar with the variety of mentalities in France would be fully aware that if there is a demographic group persistently targeted by discrimination and prejudice, it is not French Jews but our French of Northern African origin (to include Sub Sahara and Sahel immigrant origin). FYI, French Jews are not relegated to our housing projects(really no different than ghettos), maintained in a state of socio economical stagnation. When we speak of "cages a poules" (hen houses), it is not with the vision of French Jews but the vision of of those French of those specific immigrant origins. I am also rather familiar with the reality that when it comes to heavy handed profiling exercised by our bodies of law enforcement, it is not French Jews who fall victim of such methods but those French of those specific immigrant origins.

the reality is that Jews *ARE* fleeing these days. Not a lot yet but even a trickle is a very bad sign.

The reality is that when it comes to France, the one demographic group who persistently suffers through discrimination and prejudice is representative of our French of Northern African origin to include Sahel and Sub Sahara origin. Not French Jews.

 

[Draconis]

I agree with the initial statement of this thread and much else that is said here. Although I don't think anyone deserves to die, and peace does not seem possible. So brace ourselves for more of this.

 

[font]

I am demonstrating the reality that secular minded Jews who represent the VAST majority of French Jews have NO desire to move to Israel due to its theocratic blue prints. And as to any claims that French Jews are somehow afraid to manifest their identity while Font seems to think that "1200" polled French Jews from which 40% (meaning less than 600) are afraid to wear items identifying them as Jews supports his original claim, it appears you and Font need to educate yourselves as to the actual status of Jewish communities in France, how organized those communities are, are culturally vibrant they are and certainly not afraid to manifest their Jewish identity:

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/communities/show?id=98

Sorry but arguments like "I know" don't impress me. As well as the substitute of "jews" by "secular minded Jews". It doesn't work this way. Jews are a people and not a group of specifically minded people. I presented you data and it doesn't matter that you don't like it. And you again present an irrelevant link. There is no one word about free manifestation of jewish identity in the article. It do states that "Statistics show an increase in aliya and tourism to Israel in recent years" which of course does not support your position.
More interesting though are headlines on the page:
"Pro-Palestinian youth attack two synagogues in Paris suburbs"
"French Jews leave for Israel in increasing numbers"

 

[Sabine Grant]

I am demonstrating the reality that secular minded Jews who represent the VAST majority of French Jews have NO desire to move to Israel due to its theocratic blue prints. And as to any claims that French Jews are somehow afraid to manifest their identity while Font seems to think that "1200" polled French Jews from which 40% (meaning less than 600) are afraid to wear items identifying them as Jews supports his original claim, it appears you and Font need to educate yourselves as to the actual status of Jewish communities in France, how organized those communities are, are culturally vibrant they are and certainly not afraid to manifest their Jewish identity:

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/communities/show?id=98

Sorry but arguments like "I know" don't impress me. As well as the substitute of "jews" by "secular minded Jews". It doesn't work this way. Jews are a people and not a group of specifically minded people.

Are you denying that the vast majority of French Jews are secular minded and certainly not representative of Judaic orthodoxy? Are secular minded Jews living in a secularized nation like France not Jews any longer for whatever reason? Are you going to claim that my paternal grand father was not a Jew because he was an atheist? Do you believe that only practicing Jews abiding to Judaic orthodoxy are Jews?

You keep saying that Jews are a people why you seem to reject the diversity of cultural traits among Jews. What is your definition of Jewish? Since you reject the reality of secular minded Jews, surely you must have a restrictive definition of what being Jewish means.

I presented you data and it doesn't matter that you don't like it.

The data you presented specifically regarding France speaks of 40% out of 1200 Jews (as if only 1200 Jews live in France) who are afraid of wearing items identifying them as Jews. Are you at all aware that French Jews have last names which identify them as Jews just like my father was? Are you under the belief that close to half a million of Jews who live in France change their last name for fear of being identified as Jews?

Further , the below article from the Economist states (and I hope you will pay attention to the fact that the 2 named parties are important Jewish personalities ) :

http://www.economist.com/news/brief...sympathy-not-just-europe-also-among-americans

A survey released this year by the Anti-Defamation League said 34% of eastern Europeans and 24% of western Europeans harboured anti-Semitic views—implying that the continent houses 165m Jew-haters. Others are less gloomy. Vivian Wineman, who heads the Board of Deputies of British Jews, the umbrella body of British Jewry, notes that spikes in anti-Jewish attacks correlate to bouts of fighting in the Middle East. His French counterpart, Roger Cukierman, says public attitudes are driven “by the images of Palestinian babies on television, which makes [people] very angry.”

Some of the Israeli government’s critics hit back by accusing its supporters of highlighting rising anti-Semitism in Europe and elsewhere to deflect criticisms of its own abuses of human rights. “Ninety-five per cent of demonstrators have nothing against Jews,” says a French government official and Jewish campaigner for a two-state settlement.

Let this sink in : it is not Antisemitism which is driving such harsh critics of Israel, protests and demonstrations critical of Jews, but this,

notes that spikes in anti-Jewish attacks correlate to bouts of fighting in the Middle East

And yes, many Europeans are very angry with the high ratio of civilian casualties in the Gaza. The error they are making though is that they somehow assume that their fellow citizens who are Jews are incapable of being critical of Israeli policies. I suppose they conclude that by the sole quality of being a Jew it must mean allegiance and loyalty to Israel under any circumstance. Well...Bernard Kouchner,(ex Ministre des Affaires Etrangeres) named as one of the most influential 50 Jewish personalities in the world by the Jerusalem Post, had not hesitated to be critical of the Israeli embargo on the Gaza and that during his visit to Israel in 2008. While he certainly did not mince his words when commenting on the sufferings of the Palestinian population in the Gaza. Oh wait... he is a secular minded Jew and oh the horror, a renown humanitarian, founder of Medecins sans Frontieres. Ever heard of Jack Lang? Probably not...here is another French Jew politician who has been critical of Israeli policies.

I do not suppose they would be accused of Antisemitism , would they? As it appears that the inflammatory mantra of accusing of Antisemitism, members of this board critical of Israel, keeps popping up.

And you again present an irrelevant link.

The content of the link I presented in fact describes the vibrant cultural manifestation of French Jews. Did you at all read it?

As to the previous article from Haaretz I linked you to, its content was quite relevant to the reality I had exposed of Israel being a state with theocratic blue prints, theocratic blue prints which remain a deterrent to French secular minded Jews who have no desire to become citizens and residents of a nation with legislation tainted by religious influence. Of wait...you have rejected "secular minded" as if those French Jews do not count.

There is no one word about free manifestation of Jewish identity in the article.

The content of the article expands greatly on the presence of a multitude of Jewish organizations to include the national recognition afforded to the Representative Council of French Jewry (CRIF) and the United Jewish Social Foundation (FSJU). Did you also somehow not comprehend this part as you appear to not have comprehended the rest?

In Paris alone, there are more than 20 Jewish day schools, both elementary and high schools, as well as kindergartens and religious seminaries. Jewish schools are also to be found in Strasbourg, Nice, Toulouse, Marseilles, Bordeaux, Metz, and Aix-les-Bains. Most French universities offer courses in Judaic studies, including courses in Yiddish, Ladino, and Hebrew. The Mercaz Rashi, which contains the University Center for Jewish Studies, provides courses for academics and students. The Rabbinical Seminary ordains rabbis to serve in French-speaking countries. About 4% of the school-age children are enrolled in Jewish day schools. The Alliance Israelite Universelle supervises an international network of French-oriented schools in other countries.

Every year there is a Jewish Book Week, a Jewish Music Week, an intellectual colloquium, and a variety of symposia and seminars on Jewish issues. Jewish dance and theater companies are also active. A lively Jewish press exists in France, featuring two weeklies and a number of monthly journals. Weekly Jewish programs are broadcast on both radio and television, and several local Jewish radio stations are on the air in Paris and in other major cities.

Now of course, I would not expect you to be familiar with French radio stations focusing on Jewish culture/traditions etc...

Here, you can listen live to Radio Shalom, from Dijon, France :

http://radio-shalom-dijon.com/ (Home Page)

http://streema.com/radios/Radio_shalom_Dijon (live broadcast)

Here is a list of Religious Judaic and cultural Jewish radio stations throughout France :

http://www.radio-home.net/radio-by-theme.php?musiregion=juif&lang=EN

As to this "national identity" you keep referring to regarding French Jews : what do you think heads the cover of a French passport held by a French citizen such as a Bernard Dray, or a Simon Cohen or a Pierre Levi or a Roger Schwartz?.... "Etat d'Israel" or "Republique Francaise"? Which anthem do they identify with as French citizens ? The "Hatkivah" or "la Marseillaise"?

By the way, no one is denying that Jews are a people. No differently than Maori in NZ are a people. However, does being a "people" justify occupying territories which were the legitimate property of another people? The answer is : no.



As to the Aliyah and what you need to know in view of you attributing to an increase of French Jews immigrating to Israel the sole factor of being afraid to show their "national identity" in France :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Aliyah_from_France

During the first few months of 2014, The Jewish Agency of Israel has continued to encourage an increase of French aliyah through aliyah fairs, Hebrew-language courses, sessions which assist in potential olim to find jobs in Israel, and immigrant absorption in Israel.[55] A May 2014 survey revealed that 74 percent of French Jews consider leaving France for Israel where of the 74 percent, 29.9 percent cited anti-Semitism. Another 24.4 cited their desire to “preserve their Judaism,” while 12.4 percent said they were attracted by other countries. “Economic considerations” was cited by 7.5 percent of the respondents.[56] By June 2014, it was estimated by the end of 2014 a full 1 percent of the French Jewish community will have made aliyah to Israel, the largest in a single year. Many Jewish leaders stated the emigration is being driven by a combination of factors, including the cultural gravitation towards Israel and France’s economic woes, especially for the younger generation drawn by the possibility of other socioeconomic opportunities in the more vibrant Israeli economy.[57][58]

You did not bring up the economical factor, did you? Better to portray all Jews citizens of European nations with hyperbolic terms such as (compliments of Loren) " Jews being chased" from Europe. And concoct scenarios of doom echoing the Shoah with mentions of American Jews being only "currently" comfortable living in the US.

While you spicing up the hyperbolic tone with your accusing another member of this board, posting in this thread, of antisemitism.

It do states that "Statistics show an increase in aliya and tourism to Israel in recent years" which of course does not support your position.
More interesting though are headlines on the page:
"Pro-Palestinian youth attack two synagogues in Paris suburbs"

I totally condemn such vandalism and attacks targeting Jewish property, stores, religious edifices etc...no differently than I have always condemned vandalism and attacks committed by other groups targeting any other ethnic group in my country. I am disgusted by the sight in the French media footage of placards and shouting of "il faut gazer les Juifs". It is horrible and can only re open wounds in the scars left by the Shoah. Folks of my generation (am only a couple of weeks away from turning 58) have known in person Shoah survivors. For some of us they were our relatives.

"French Jews leave for Israel in increasing numbers"

Combined factors motivating an increase in French Jews leaving for Israel addressed above. And it certainly does not come down to the one factor of antisemitism only as your original claim was.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are you denying that the vast majority of French Jews are secular minded and certainly not representative of Judaic orthodoxy? Are secular minded Jews living in a secularized nation like France not Jews any longer for whatever reason? Are you going to claim that my paternal grand father was not a Jew because he was an atheist? Do you believe that only practicing Jews abiding to Judaic orthodoxy are Jews?

Generally nobody will know a non-practicing Jew is a Jew, thus a lack of threat to them means nothing. The threat to those whose Jewishness is apparent is the true measure of the problem.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Oh, I almost forgot about my "Great Teacher" from Sweden.

How to Survive as a Jew in Sweden

At one point I glanced around our compartment: there were four other people there, four adults witnessing a single mother and her five-year-old child being attacked by a grown man. They did nothing. I tried forcing them to meet my gaze; but they just turned away, put on their headphones, stared at their screens, ignored what was happening in front of them.

I did not summon the railway police. I did not scream back at the man. I know better. I know that the only way to survive as a Jew in my country is not to be seen as one. Not to be exposed but to shut up and fade into the woodwork. I’ve known this for quite some time. Unfortunately, my son knows it now, too.

My son no longer wears his kippah in public.

http://mosaicmagazine.com/supplemental/2013/08/how-to-survive-as-a-jew-in-sweden/

Well, that link was an eye-opener for me. I had no idea what has been going on in Europe and in Sweden & Norway in particular. "Tolerant modern Democracies", eh? Much as I find any outward signalling of one's superstitious belief in religion and related other superstitions in public, whether Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, other Christian, Hindu, or whatever, to be as repugnant as any ritual slaughter of animals for human consumption and deserving of a ban in this 21st Century, the ban, if passed as a law, ought to apply to all such superstitions.

Sweden is a great country in many ways but it's not even close to as great as our image says it is. Like every country Sweden has many serious problems. Racism being one of them. Swedes are in general pretty tolerant. But we're no saints.

 

[arkirk]

Israel and Palestine are nations made up of lots of individual human beings, not homogeneous swarms. If you anthropomorphize each nation and treat its actions as reflections of some sort of coherent aggregate personality, then what you end up with is just two nations acting in ruthless pursuit of their own self interest, the same way all nations on the planet ever seem to do. Nations, like corporations, usually turn out to be contemptible in some manner or another if I pay enough attention to their behavior.

The nice thing about democracy is that the government actually represent the will of the people. We do know what Israelis, on average, think. So I'm afraid we can't really pass the buck on this one.

In what way do any of the sides, (Israel and Palestine) have anything to gain from continuing this ridiculous conflict? It doesn't look like selfish self-interest to me. To me it looks more like belligerent small-mindedness.

But hasn't general usage of terms on radio, TV, and internet news been shaped by selective reporting? What I find more disturbing than the actions of Hamas and the IDF is an absolutely anti-humanist attitude in those average Americans who allow their government to load this conflict from the back end. Giving one side back-up weapons in the event they have not concluded quite enough in the killing business. Obama is lock step with only one side. As neither side considers people residing outside their country, and certainly outside their religion or race as human, yes their attitudes are the crux of the local conflict. Somehow the message has not come through to these people that we are all equally human.

I have been conscious of the closeness of the genetic relationship of all members of homo sapiens for a long long time. If there is something to race, then the human race is fucked up. There really is no reason to just pin this on the locals in the goofy holy land. All the active combattants in this conflict are acting as surrogates for outside powers. Meanwhile back here at the Ponderosa it is easy to say so and so sucks. If we are putting guns in the hands of any of these combattants, we are complicit in the real crimes
....war, domination and assumption of the right to kill people of different race and ethnicity in the service to God. We really refuse to concede we are all in one enormous family and we ought to care for our family. Somehow humanism has vanished from our considerations. Somehow, we have stopped supporting the need for peace and taken up sides in this slaughter. "Lock step" Obama is like so many of us...ready to see some unworthy heathens die.

If we arrive a a policy that can only be termed hatred of some portion of our species and the actions supported by that hatred, can we really be saying anything significant or conflict reducing when we say these people suck. I suspect that there are large swaths of all societies on the earth who are willing to try to make something like peace....something good for all of us, rather than chauvinism.

 

[font]

Are you denying that the vast majority of French Jews are secular minded and certainly not representative of Judaic orthodoxy? Are secular minded Jews living in a secularized nation like France not Jews any longer for whatever reason? Are you going to claim that my paternal grand father was not a Jew because he was an atheist? Do you believe that only practicing Jews abiding to Judaic orthodoxy are Jews?

You keep saying that Jews are a people why you seem to reject the diversity of cultural traits among Jews. What is your definition of Jewish? Since you reject the reality of secular minded Jews, surely you must have a restrictive definition of what being Jewish means.

I haven't. And there is very simple reason for that - I'm a secular jew. As many of israeli jews. Does it mean that they don't identify themselves as jews? Of course not. They make Jewish wedding (chuppah), circumcision, celebrate jewish holidays etc. All what is called a jewish tradition. And all jewish traditions have religious roots. Try to find in the Congress a jew in time of jewish Passover or Yom Kippur. Does it mean that these people are orthodox jews? No. It means that they are jews. Secular minded or not. Some of jews want be more religious. It's their right. In this case they are more exposable as jews and that is why several jews were killed near jewish religious school in Toulouse.

The data you presented specifically regarding France speaks of 40% out of 1200 Jews (as if only 1200 Jews live in France) who are afraid of wearing items identifying them as Jews.

Sorry, but it was a stupid comment. And again, you are free to present any other data.

Are you at all aware that French Jews have last names which identify them as Jews just like my father was? Are you under the belief that close to half a million of Jews who live in France change their last name for fear of being identified as Jews?

I'm under the belief that jews in France don't expose their last names on the streets.

And yes, many Europeans are very angry with the high ratio of civilian casualties in the Gaza. The error they are making though is that they somehow assume that their fellow citizens who are Jews are incapable of being critical of Israeli policies. I suppose they conclude that by the sole quality of being a Jew it must mean allegiance and loyalty to Israel under any circumstance. Well...Bernard Kouchner,(ex Ministre des Affaires Etrangeres) named as one of the most influential 50 Jewish personalities in the world by the Jerusalem Post, had not hesitated to be critical of the Israeli embargo on the Gaza and that during his visit to Israel in 2008. While he certainly did not mince his words when commenting on the sufferings of the Palestinian population in the Gaza. Oh wait... he is a secular minded Jew and oh the horror, a renown humanitarian, founder of Medecins sans Frontieres. Ever heard of Jack Lang? Probably not...here is another French Jew politician who has been critical of Israeli policies.

I do not suppose they would be accused of Antisemitism , would they? As it appears that the inflammatory mantra of accusing of Antisemitism, members of this board critical of Israel, keeps popping up.

Just a criticism of Israel is not anti semitism. But when it becomes an obsession - it is. And it did became an obsession. Just replace the word "jews" by "zionists" and "jewish state" by "zionist state" and going to "stealing land" and "apartheid" makes it pretty polit correct. This is not criticism. This is demonstration of hatred. Hatred to jews. And this is why jews fled Europe. Today Israel as a jewish state is a legitimate target of anti semitism. Oh, they are not against jews, just against Israel. But Israel is a jewish state and home for jewish people. And this is a real reason for "criticism". I've already said and say it again: it's not about palestinians, it's about jews.

The content of the link I presented in fact describes the vibrant cultural manifestation of French Jews. Did you at all read it?

As to the previous article from Haaretz I linked you to, its content was quite relevant to the reality I had exposed of Israel being a state with theocratic blue prints, theocratic blue prints which remain a deterrent to French secular minded Jews who have no desire to become citizens and residents of a nation with legislation tainted by religious influence. Of wait...you have rejected "secular minded" as if those French Jews do not count.

And still irrelevant to the issue of anti semitism in France today.

As to this "national identity" you keep referring to regarding French Jews : what do you think heads the cover of a French passport held by a French citizen such as a Bernard Dray, or a Simon Cohen or a Pierre Levi or a Roger Schwartz?.... "Etat d'Israel" or "Republique Francaise"? Which anthem do they identify with as French citizens ? The "Hatkivah" or "la Marseillaise"?

How national identity is connected to citizenship? Do you think that arabs in Israel eat matzah during jewish passover?

By the way, no one is denying that Jews are a people. No differently than Maori in NZ are a people. However, does being a "people" justify occupying territories which were the legitimate property of another people? The answer is : no.

As long as "another people" doesn't accept the right of "the people" to live in its national country my answer is: yes.

You did not bring up the economical factor, did you? Better to portray all Jews citizens of European nations with hyperbolic terms such as (compliments of Loren) " Jews being chased" from Europe. And concoct scenarios of doom echoing the Shoah with mentions of American Jews being only "currently" comfortable living in the US.

While you spicing up the hyperbolic tone with your accusing another member of this board, posting in this thread, of antisemitism.

Nobody say that jews leave Europe because of bad economy.

I'm not a judge and just express my opinion. But it is already not first such warning. If my posts are so annoying for the members of this board or for its administration I can leave the forum.

 

[Togo]

I'm not a judge and just express my opinion. But it is already not first such warning. If my posts are so annoying for the members of this board or for its administration I can leave the forum.

The rules are pretty simple. You can't make personal attacks on other posters. While I understand that you may honestly believe that all political criticism of Israel is secretly driven by racial hatred, you can't try and stifle political discussions by accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being a racist bigot. So compare what you are saying to what the standard is, and see if you can remain on the right side of it.

Rather than such accusations, which only serve to stifle debate, it would be better if you could present reasons why the people who disagree with you are wrong. Generally speaking, bigots don't have reasons which stand up to scrutiny. It's better for the board, it's better for Israel, and it's better for you.

Of course, if you don't actually have any reasons, and were supporting Israel out of blind allegiance, then the logical way out would be to make a load of personal attacks, get banned, and then blame it all on your opponents being unreasonable. Which is why it's important not to go down that route, if you do actually have a point to make.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Israel and the Palestinians are carrying on millennia of tradition for that part of the planet. I think frustration can build because there is this false expectation that something is wrong and different there today than has been the case historically. But that's not accurate. This is just the way people live there. It's the norm, exactly what one would expect to encounter based on what's happened in the past. There is no way they could ever possibly coexist peacefully under any circumstances for any appreciable length of time. Presently they can't stop hating and killing each other for 72 hours.

So long as they keep their violence in their back yards I say let them gleefully kill each other for another ten thousand years.

 

[untermensche]

Israel and the Palestinians are carrying on millennia of tradition for that part of the planet. I think frustration can build because there is this false expectation that something is wrong and different there today than has been the case historically. But that's not accurate. This is just the way people live there. It's the norm, exactly what one would expect to encounter based on what's happened in the past. There is no way they could ever possibly coexist peacefully under any circumstances for any appreciable length of time. Presently they can't stop hating and killing each other for 72 hours.

So long as they keep their violence in their back yards I say let them gleefully kill each other for another ten thousand years.

Europe was exactly the same thing for millennia.

This has nothing to do with any particular area or people that are different in some way.

There are root causes, two groups that want the same land.

But the recent history is, one of these groups has been brutally oppressing the other for decades.

 

[Sabine Grant]

I haven't. And there is very simple reason for that - I'm a secular jew. As many of israeli jews. Does it mean that they don't identify themselves as jews? Of course not. They make Jewish wedding (chuppah), circumcision, celebrate jewish holidays etc. All what is called a jewish tradition. And all jewish traditions have religious roots. Try to find in the Congress a jew in time of jewish Passover or Yom Kippur. Does it mean that these people are orthodox jews? No. It means that they are jews. Secular minded or not. Some of jews want be more religious. It's their right. In this case they are more exposable as jews and that is why several jews were killed near jewish religious school in Toulouse.

So what was the intent or purpose of you stating, from :

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...alestinians-suck&p=46994&viewfull=1#post46994

As well as the substitute of "jews" by "secular minded Jews". It doesn't work this way. Jews are a people and not a group of specifically minded people.

in your reply to my comments SPECIFICALLY defining for you what the profile of the vast majority of French Jews is, meaning secular minded.

The data you presented specifically regarding France speaks of 40% out of 1200 Jews (as if only 1200 Jews live in France) who are afraid of wearing items identifying them as Jews.

Sorry, but it was a stupid comment. And again, you are free to present any other data.

If one wishes to survey the Jewish population in France, it certainly should not be based on only 1200 individuals when the Jewish population amounts to close to 500.000. You seem to have missed the point of my remark while calling it "stupid".

Are you at all aware that French Jews have last names which identify them as Jews just like my father was? Are you under the belief that close to half a million of Jews who live in France change their last name for fear of being identified as Jews?

I'm under the belief that jews in France don't expose their last names on the streets.

You seemed to believe that it is necessary to be wearing items revealing one's Jewishness in France to be identified as a Jew. When the reality is that French Jews have specific last names which identify them as Jews. Simon Levi needs not to wear any such items as his name will show in an ad regarding his profession and services he provides and will certainly be listed in phone and addresses directories and will certainly be printed at the entrance of his business or office etc...What served as a protection for my father during the occupation while the Vichy Government was tracking down French Jews was the fact he modified his last name.

My point being that I am not seeing close to half a million of French Jews hiding or modifying their last names in response to being "afraid of showing their national identity". Similarly, all the French Jewish radio stations I listed have not stopped broadcasting their programs. Usually, when people live in fear, they remove themselves from keeping any detectable or identifying profile.

And yes, many Europeans are very angry with the high ratio of civilian casualties in the Gaza. The error they are making though is that they somehow assume that their fellow citizens who are Jews are incapable of being critical of Israeli policies. I suppose they conclude that by the sole quality of being a Jew it must mean allegiance and loyalty to Israel under any circumstance. Well...Bernard Kouchner,(ex Ministre des Affaires Etrangeres) named as one of the most influential 50 Jewish personalities in the world by the Jerusalem Post, had not hesitated to be critical of the Israeli embargo on the Gaza and that during his visit to Israel in 2008. While he certainly did not mince his words when commenting on the sufferings of the Palestinian population in the Gaza. Oh wait... he is a secular minded Jew and oh the horror, a renown humanitarian, founder of Medecins sans Frontieres. Ever heard of Jack Lang? Probably not...here is another French Jew politician who has been critical of Israeli policies.

I do not suppose they would be accused of Antisemitism , would they? As it appears that the inflammatory mantra of accusing of Antisemitism, members of this board critical of Israel, keeps popping up.

Just a criticism of Israel is not anti semitism. But when it becomes an obsession - it is. And it did became an obsession. Just replace the word "jews" by "zionists" and "jewish state" by "zionist state" and going to "stealing land" and "apartheid" makes it pretty polit correct.

You have not made any rationally and evidence supported case that members of this board who have used such language it is because they "hate Jews". They profoundly disagree with Israeli policies and consider that the occupied territories are stolen lands. No one has portrayed millions of Jews dispersed throughout the world as "zionists". As to "zionist state", it reflects the descriptive content from,

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html

which directly connects Zionism to the existence of Israel.

This is not criticism. This is demonstration of hatred. Hatred to jews.

No, it is NOT. You are attempting to justify and rationalize your use of inflammatory accusations. Such use is no different than people who will accuse of racism against Arabs as a whole,or of "hating Arabs" someone who will consistently build argumentation opposing Hamas and the fundamentalist Islamic theocracies who resent the existence of Israel. Similarly, people who consistently build argumentation opposing and denouncing the Islamic Republic of Iran's Shia penetration in Irak, it is not because "they hate Persians".

And this is why jews fled Europe.

Jews fled from European nations who collaborated with The Nazi and had no qualm being active participants in the horrifying deportation of their Jews destined to concentration camps whether they be death camps or "labor camps". Such as it was the case for the Vichy Government. However, France today is far from having a government who does not protect French Jews. My government went as far as banning anti Israel and Pro Palestinian protests and demonstrations on the French territory :

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/25/372736/france-bans-propalestine-protest/

Today Israel as a jewish state is a legitimate target of anti semitism. Oh, they are not against jews, just against Israel. But Israel is a jewish state and home for jewish people. And this is a real reason for "criticism". I've already said and say it again: it's not about palestinians, it's about jews.

You saying it again and again does not make it true. It is only a prolongation of your determination to attempt to justify and rationalize your accusations of Antisemitism. I have a far longer observation of the argumentation presented by members on FRDB and now TFT than you can claim to have. None of them "hate Jews". Again, you fail to present evidence supporting your inflammatory accusations of Antisemitism and "hating Jews". Since I do not hesitate to be critical of Israeli policies and have done so consistently for a long time (which can be traced in the FRDB archives), according to you, the "real reason" for such criticisms is because I would "hate Jews". I then "hate Jews" because I consider that the occupied territories are stolen land. I then "hate Jews" because I recognize the influence of Zionism in the establishment of the State of Israel. I "hate Jews" because I do not hesitate to describe the Gaza strip as an open air prison from which no one can escape while the IDF is firing causing a high ratio of civilian casualties. I "hate Jews" because I strongly oppose any argumentation that children of Hamas loyal parents are not part of the "real victims".(can be traced in the other thread).

The content of the link I presented in fact describes the vibrant cultural manifestation of French Jews. Did you at all read it?

As to the previous article from Haaretz I linked you to, its content was quite relevant to the reality I had exposed of Israel being a state with theocratic blue prints, theocratic blue prints which remain a deterrent to French secular minded Jews who have no desire to become citizens and residents of a nation with legislation tainted by religious influence. Of wait...you have rejected "secular minded" as if those French Jews do not count.

And still irrelevant to the issue of anti semitism in France today.

The OP was not about a discussion on Antisemitism. You redirected the discussion towards Antisemitism with your original statement and one which which was phrased as if all European Jews are afraid to "show their national identity". I then corrected you as to what "national identity" is about for French Jews while reminding you that the vast majority of them are secular minded Jews and the why and how the theocratic blue prints of the State Of Israel remain a deterrent for French Jews who have no desire to live in a nation with theocratic blue prints. Thus, the link I provided which you immediately dismissed when its content commented on those blue prints.

As to this "national identity" you keep referring to regarding French Jews : what do you think heads the cover of a French passport held by a French citizen such as a Bernard Dray, or a Simon Cohen or a Pierre Levi or a Roger Schwartz?.... "Etat d'Israel" or "Republique Francaise"? Which anthem do they identify with as French citizens ? The "Hatkivah" or "la Marseillaise"?

How national identity is connected to citizenship? Do you think that arabs in Israel eat matzah during jewish passover?

You are then misusing the term "national identity". My nationality is French due to my French citizenship. There is not one government who would question it based on my being a secular and non religious person or would question it based on my being a French Muslim, a French Jew or a French Catholic. Any time I travel, my national identity is widely and officially recognized as French. The national identity of French Jews is French, not "Jew" whether they be practicing or non practicing Jews. Same with French Muslims and French Catholics.

By the way, no one is denying that Jews are a people. No differently than Maori in NZ are a people. However, does being a "people" justify occupying territories which were the legitimate property of another people? The answer is : no.

As long as "another people" doesn't accept the right of "the people" to live in its national country my answer is: yes.

But the result of the "national country" has been occupied territories which used to be the legitimate property of another "people". I see that you have no qualm in justifying taking away via occupation territories which used to be the legitimate territories of another people...as long as they are not Jews. Interesting.

You did not bring up the economical factor, did you? Better to portray all Jews citizens of European nations with hyperbolic terms such as (compliments of Loren) " Jews being chased" from Europe. And concoct scenarios of doom echoing the Shoah with mentions of American Jews being only "currently" comfortable living in the US.

While you spicing up the hyperbolic tone with your accusing another member of this board, posting in this thread, of antisemitism.

Nobody say that jews leave Europe because of bad economy.

Read the paragraph from Wiki I quoted. It specifically mentions a combination of factors to include the economical one, emphasizing the lack of employment prospect for younger generations who will find the thriving Israeli economy attractive compared with the unemployment crisis in France. You have repeatedly attributed the increase of immigration rate towards Israel due to Antisemitism alone. And now have dismissed the content of the paragraph I quoted.

I'm not a judge and just express my opinion.

You are attacking the person of a poster when you launch into inflammatory accusations of Antisemitism as being the motivation for their opinion opposing yours. You have clearly and undeniably concluded in what is quoted above that "it is not about Palestinians" but "hating Jews".

But it is already not first such warning. If my posts are so annoying for the members of this board or for its administration I can leave the forum.

Togo has taken the time to explain to you why such inflammatory accusations cannot be productive in this discussion. I suggest you reflect on why "it stifles the debate".

As to the attack on the Jewish school in Toulouse and what you left out :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootings

The Toulouse and Montauban shootings were a series of three gun attacks targeting French soldiers and Jewish civilians in the cities of Montauban and Toulouse in the Midi-Pyrénées region of France in March 2012.[2][3][4] In total, seven people were killed, and five others were injured, four seriously. The perpetrator was shot and killed after a 30-hour siege with police.

The first attack occurred on 11 March, when a Muslim French paratrooper was shot dead in Toulouse. A second attack on 15 March killed two uniformed soldiers and seriously injured another in a shopping centre in Montauban. On 19 March, four people, including three children, were killed at the Ozar Hatorah Jewish day school.[5][6]

If Merah admitted to "Jews killing our brothers and sisters in Palestine" motivating his attack against the school, his shooting and killing (first attack) of a MUSLIM French soldier followed by 2 more fatal shootings of French soldiers and one non fatal indicate that he was the typical radicalized Muslim (of Salafi origin) portraying himself as a mujaheed engaging in a holy war (jihad). His targets not only included Jewish victims but also 4 victims who were not in any way related to Jews. To include one Muslim.Such Jihadists will target anyone they view as being responsible for the death of their "brothers and sisters" while the "brothers and sisters" exclude Muslims who are not abiding to their fundamentalist and radicalized views of Islam.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Israel and the Palestinians are carrying on millennia of tradition for that part of the planet. I think frustration can build because there is this false expectation that something is wrong and different there today than has been the case historically. But that's not accurate. This is just the way people live there. It's the norm, exactly what one would expect to encounter based on what's happened in the past. There is no way they could ever possibly coexist peacefully under any circumstances for any appreciable length of time. Presently they can't stop hating and killing each other for 72 hours.

So long as they keep their violence in their back yards I say let them gleefully kill each other for another ten thousand years.

Europe was exactly the same thing for millennia.

This has nothing to do with any particular area or people that are different in some way.

There are root causes, two groups that want the same land.

When it comes to specifically Hamas, it is not just about "wanting the same land". As a reminder from the content of the Hamas Charter :

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.../carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

Article Eight: The Slogan of the Hamas
Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.

Hamas advocates IslaMISM throughout its Charter while quoting numerous surah all pointing to the eradication of those who "defy Islam". Their motivation is far more religious than it is about "wanting the same land".

Further and to consolidate my point that it goes further than just "wanting the same land" :

http://www.palestine-studies.org/files/pdf/jps/1734.pdf

The Last Hour would not come until the Muslims
fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill
them, and until the Jews would hide themselves
behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree
would say. Muslim or Servant of Allah there is a
Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree of
Gharqad would not say it, for it is the tree of the
Jews (Bukhari and Muslim).3

But the recent history is, one of these groups has been brutally oppressing the other for decades.

However, one cannot deny the purely religious motivation for Hamas to exterminate all Jews. A regaining by Hamas of lost territories and by those who abide to the Hamas Charter would in no way fulfill their religious motivation.

Is peaceful cohabitation between Muslims and Jews in the same nation a possibility? Well yes, it is...Morocco stood as an example of such peaceful cohabitation to the point that during WW2 Sultan Mohammed Vth (short of flipping a finger to the Germans) in a predominantly Muslim majority nation, refused to surrender Moroccan Jews to the Germans. "Our Jews are Moroccans" was his response.

As long as there exists on either side religious radicalized movements capable of pulling the strings in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, there is NO hope of peaceful cohabitation whether it be a 2 State solution or a one State solution.Territorial adjustments will not pacify Muslims who abide to the Hamas Charter.

 

[untermensche]

When it comes to specifically Hamas, it is not just about "wanting the same land". As a reminder from the content of the Hamas Charter :

So lets see.

The brutal occupation and oppression begins in 1967.

And this answer to it from the oppressed arises in 1987.

What am I supposed to make of this document born out of brutality and oppression?

It is not very nice?

There is absolutely nothing special about Hamas or it's charter. This is what oppression begets. Happens all the time.

 

[Sabine Grant]

When it comes to specifically Hamas, it is not just about "wanting the same land". As a reminder from the content of the Hamas Charter :

So lets see.

The brutal occupation and oppression begins in 1967.

And this answer to it from the oppressed arises in 1987.

What am I supposed to make of this document born out of brutality and oppression?

It is not very nice?

There is absolutely nothing special about Hamas or it's charter. This is what oppression begets. Happens all the time.

You are not addressing the reality that the religious content of the multiple quoted surah echoes the history of Muslim conquests which were driven by the same religious motivation as Hamas which is the Islamization of the entire world while eradicating those who "defy Islam" and those who will not convert to Islam and serve Allah and those who will not be abiding to a fundamentalist and radicalized interpretation of Islam.

Muslim conquests were always driven by a religious motivation. The occupation of conquered land always included the motivation of converting natives to Islam. It is a religiously motivated expansion not one based on "just wanting the same land".

I am very surprised you are not seeing the blue prints of such same religion motivated expansion in the Hamas Charter.

 

[untermensche]

So lets see.

The brutal occupation and oppression begins in 1967.

And this answer to it from the oppressed arises in 1987.

What am I supposed to make of this document born out of brutality and oppression?

It is not very nice?

There is absolutely nothing special about Hamas or it's charter. This is what oppression begets. Happens all the time.

You are not addressing the reality that the religious content of the multiple quoted surah echoes the history of Muslim conquests which were driven by the same religious motivation as Hamas which is the Islamization of the entire world while eradicating those who "defy Islam" and those who will not convert to Islam and serve Allah and those who will not be abiding to a fundamentalist and radicalized interpretation of Islam.

Muslim conquests were always driven by a religious motivation. The occupation of conquered land always included the motivation of converting natives to Islam. It is a religiously motivated expansion not one based on "just wanting the same land".

I am very surprised you are not seeing the blue prints of such same religion motivated expansion in the Hamas Charter.

It's possible that the combination of particular beliefs and two decades of oppression and abuse produced the document. Although I believe that we never really know what abuse and oppression will produce. There are too many contingencies to consider.

But in this case I blame the oppression and abuse.

You focus on the beliefs of the people abused.