Calorie intake among low, normal and obese people pretty much the same

[T.G.G. Moogly]

And these behaviors are also typical of someone with disordered eating at best and a full on eating disorder at worst. Not living IMO. People are not meant to "put up with hunger". Hunger is your body's way of saying it NEEDS nutrients and it is just STUPID to ignore them. Would you ignore your thirst?

The feeling of hunger can be a habitual sort of process, not always a physiological signal.

Certain types of foods lessen the hunger feeling (such as the effect of protein upon the hypothalamus, etc.) but people can keep eating long after they reach the point of "feeling full."

When I overeat it's because I enjoy the taste of what I'm eating. It has nothing to do with being hungry.

On the other hand if I'm emaciated or have a condition where I can't keep weight on that's a different ballgame.

 

[EricB]

The feeling of hunger can be a habitual sort of process, not always a physiological signal.

Certain types of foods lessen the hunger feeling (such as the effect of protein upon the hypothalamus, etc.) but people can keep eating long after they reach the point of "feeling full."

When I overeat it's because I enjoy the taste of what I'm eating. It has nothing to do with being hungry.

On the other hand if I'm emaciated or have a condition where I can't keep weight on that's a different ballgame.

Many people do this. I should have simply said there are psychological reasons for eating that have nothing to do with the need of nutrients. Also, dietary deficiencies in either a macro- or micro-nutrient may be expressed as feelings of hunger, but this does not exactly translate to the knowledge of what needs to be eaten. Someone deficient in certain areas, such as some vitamins or minerals, may experience great hunger, and eat a bunch of crap that they do not need to in an attempt to satisfy their cravings. And the cravings will remain as long as the deficiencies exist.

In my case, I would love to be able to eat a bunch of pasta with every lunch and dinner, but I like being in what I feel is good physical condition, so that is not exactly an option. I would do it if I could get away with it, and I used to be able to.

If my diet is high in protein and lower in carbs, I stay leaner. If these ratios flip, I gain body fat and start to struggle a bit more in the gym, over time. This is true even when my total caloric intake does not change.

And given my training volume, my diet is higher in protein than most people need.

 

[EricK]

When I overeat it's because I enjoy the taste of what I'm eating. It has nothing to do with being hungry.

On the other hand if I'm emaciated or have a condition where I can't keep weight on that's a different ballgame.

Many people do this. I should have simply said there are psychological reasons for eating that have nothing to do with the need of nutrients. Also, dietary deficiencies in either a macro- or micro-nutrient may be expressed as feelings of hunger, but this does not exactly translate to the knowledge of what needs to be eaten. Someone deficient in certain areas, such as some vitamins or minerals, may experience great hunger, and eat a bunch of crap that they do not need to in an attempt to satisfy their cravings. And the cravings will remain as long as the deficiencies exist.

In my case, I would love to be able to eat a bunch of pasta with every lunch and dinner, but I like being in what I feel is good physical condition, so that is not exactly an option. I would do it if I could get away with it, and I used to be able to.

If my diet is high in protein and lower in carbs, I stay leaner. If these ratios flip, I gain body fat and start to struggle a bit more in the gym, over time. This is true even when my total caloric intake does not change.

And given my training volume, my diet is higher in protein than most people need.

I think hunger is generally a need for more protein. Almost everybody has more than enough body fat to meet their energy needs for weeks. Whereas the body's constant need for protein (and fat) to repair and rebuild all the cells in the body means that if you eat a lot, but skimp on the protein, then you will get hungry again much sooner than if eat a lot of meat, but skimp on the carbs.

This is why talk of calories is so simplistic. Much of what you eat isn't needed for energy at all, so measuring it in calories (to tie this in with the original theme of this thread) is pointless. The reason you stay leaner if you eat low carb rather than high carb is that in the former case most of what you eat can be used for repair and (re)building lean body tissue; whereas in the latter case, the body can do nothing with the extra sugars other than convert them to fat (or let you die of hyperglycaemia). Furthermore, in the former case, you'll only get hungry again after a long time, once your body has used up all the building material; whereas in the latter case it will shortly signal that it is hungry again because it wants more protein.

 

[EricB]

Many people do this. I should have simply said there are psychological reasons for eating that have nothing to do with the need of nutrients. Also, dietary deficiencies in either a macro- or micro-nutrient may be expressed as feelings of hunger, but this does not exactly translate to the knowledge of what needs to be eaten. Someone deficient in certain areas, such as some vitamins or minerals, may experience great hunger, and eat a bunch of crap that they do not need to in an attempt to satisfy their cravings. And the cravings will remain as long as the deficiencies exist.

In my case, I would love to be able to eat a bunch of pasta with every lunch and dinner, but I like being in what I feel is good physical condition, so that is not exactly an option. I would do it if I could get away with it, and I used to be able to.

If my diet is high in protein and lower in carbs, I stay leaner. If these ratios flip, I gain body fat and start to struggle a bit more in the gym, over time. This is true even when my total caloric intake does not change.

And given my training volume, my diet is higher in protein than most people need.

I think hunger is generally a need for more protein. Almost everybody has more than enough body fat to meet their energy needs for weeks. Whereas the body's constant need for protein (and fat) to repair and rebuild all the cells in the body means that if you eat a lot, but skimp on the protein, then you will get hungry again much sooner than if eat a lot of meat, but skimp on the carbs.

This is why talk of calories is so simplistic. Much of what you eat isn't needed for energy at all, so measuring it in calories (to tie this in with the original theme of this thread) is pointless. The reason you stay leaner if you eat low carb rather than high carb is that in the former case most of what you eat can be used for repair and (re)building lean body tissue; whereas in the latter case, the body can do nothing with the extra sugars other than convert them to fat (or let you die of hyperglycaemia). Furthermore, in the former case, you'll only get hungry again after a long time, once your body has used up all the building material; whereas in the latter case it will shortly signal that it is hungry again because it wants more protein.

Of course. People talk about calories because it is simple, or at least a good starting point for those unused to portion control and dietary discipline. That being said, this only goes so far. If you are not getting essential nutrients, such as the proper amino acids in sufficient quantity, essential fatty acids, vitamins, minerals, etc. you may still experience significant cravings, even with a caloric surplus.

A great example of this are the cravings a mother may experience during pregnancy. Only takes a small (relatively speaking) amount of calories to grow a child from a dietary standpoint, but the macro and micronutrients required vary greatly over time. And no, a prenatal vitamin does not come close to covering them.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Of course. People talk about calories because it is simple, or at least a good starting point for those unused to portion control and dietary discipline. That being said, this only goes so far. If you are not getting essential nutrients, such as the proper amino acids in sufficient quantity, essential fatty acids, vitamins, minerals, etc. you may still experience significant cravings, even with a caloric surplus.

A great example of this are the cravings a mother may experience during pregnancy. Only takes a small (relatively speaking) amount of calories to grow a child from a dietary standpoint, but the macro and micronutrients required vary greatly over time. And no, a prenatal vitamin does not come close to covering them.

Not all calories, be they fat, carb or protein, are created equal. People who eat healthy diets, that tiny minority of us, know this. And it is unfortunate that what was once common knowledge has been lost.

 

[EricB]

Of course. People talk about calories because it is simple, or at least a good starting point for those unused to portion control and dietary discipline. That being said, this only goes so far. If you are not getting essential nutrients, such as the proper amino acids in sufficient quantity, essential fatty acids, vitamins, minerals, etc. you may still experience significant cravings, even with a caloric surplus.

A great example of this are the cravings a mother may experience during pregnancy. Only takes a small (relatively speaking) amount of calories to grow a child from a dietary standpoint, but the macro and micronutrients required vary greatly over time. And no, a prenatal vitamin does not come close to covering them.

Not all calories, be they fat, carb or protein, are created equal. People who eat healthy diets, that tiny minority of us, know this. And it is unfortunate that what was once common knowledge has been lost.

I would say it is ignored, instead. The information is out there, but people try and deny it.

I mean, I do this shit for a living, and the next time some dillhole argues with me and quotes Dr. Oz, I am going to slap the shit out of them. I see people every day who spend far more time bitching about their lack of success than they do contributing to it. I will never understand this.

 

[Playball40]

And these behaviors are also typical of someone with disordered eating at best and a full on eating disorder at worst. Not living IMO. People are not meant to "put up with hunger". Hunger is your body's way of saying it NEEDS nutrients and it is just STUPID to ignore them. Would you ignore your thirst?

Because it's not hunger. I'll want to eat those things even after I've eaten a full meal. My body's cues are heavily influenced by billions of years of evolution where refined carbohydrates didn't exist. It's not a fucking eating disorder, it's called discipline.

Bullshit. It said they stay trim by "ignoring hunger cues". I'm not talking about craving sweets, I'm talking about HUNGER CUES as used in the thread. Ignoring hunger cues is stupid. "measuring and weighing" everything that goes in your mouth is not normal and can lead to eating disorders. Ignoring your body's cues is disordered eating and NOT healthy. My guess is you don't know jack shit about what an eating disorder is or isn't.

 

[Playball40]

I'm referring to intentionally suppressing/denying the signal of hunger. Obsessively measuring and weighing food. Obsessively calorie counting. This is disordered eating (and has become so common in this country that NOT behaving this way is seen as unusual or incorrect.

And these behaviors are also typical of someone with disordered eating at best and a full on eating disorder at worst. Not living IMO. People are not meant to "put up with hunger". Hunger is your body's way of saying it NEEDS nutrients and it is just STUPID to ignore them. Would you ignore your thirst?

The feeling of hunger can be a habitual sort of process, not always a physiological signal.

Certain types of foods lessen the hunger feeling (such as the effect of protein upon the hypothalamus, etc.) but people can keep eating long after they reach the point of "feeling full."

 

[Playball40]

Of course. People talk about calories because it is simple, or at least a good starting point for those unused to portion control and dietary discipline. That being said, this only goes so far. If you are not getting essential nutrients, such as the proper amino acids in sufficient quantity, essential fatty acids, vitamins, minerals, etc. you may still experience significant cravings, even with a caloric surplus.

A great example of this are the cravings a mother may experience during pregnancy. Only takes a small (relatively speaking) amount of calories to grow a child from a dietary standpoint, but the macro and micronutrients required vary greatly over time. And no, a prenatal vitamin does not come close to covering them.

Not all calories, be they fat, carb or protein, are created equal. People who eat healthy diets, that tiny minority of us, know this. And it is unfortunate that what was once common knowledge has been lost.

Really? Only a tiny majority know this? Uh we've been saying it throughout the thread. Not only are they NOT created equal, they affect different people in different ways - therefore, YOUR ratio of fat/carb/protein may keep you trim, while that EXACT SAME ratio of fat/carb/protein may make someone else obese. There is NO ONE SIZED FITS ALL. We can go even further and say that you may be very healthy at 15% body fat, while someone else is very healthy at 30% body fat. Your judgment of others that don't fit YOUR mold is amazing.

 

[bilby]

The problem with the 'energy in = energy out' equation isn't that it is wrong; it is that the 'energy out' term is impossible for an ordinary person to gauge.

Sure, some of the 'energy out' is due to excercise. But humans are homeothermic; most of the energy out is heat loss, and different people lose heat at different rates in identical conditions; and an individual's rate of heat loss varies due to a huge number of factors, including (but certainly not limited to) genetics, ambient temperature, the type of food consumed, the frequency of food consumption, body fat level, excercise, humidity, clothing worn, disease and pathogen exposure, medications taken, body shape (particularly skin area:volume ratio), stress levels, fatigue, and age.

So the 'energy in = energy out' equation is not wrong, but it is useless (except in very strictly controlled conditions that are never encountered outside a laboratory).

 

[EricB]

I'm referring to intentionally suppressing/denying the signal of hunger. Obsessively measuring and weighing food. Obsessively calorie counting. This is disordered eating (and has become so common in this country that NOT behaving this way is seen as unusual or incorrect.

Ok, missed that.

Of course, what defines obsessive? I control my portion size, but I really do not need to weigh it any more because, well, the first time I cut to make weight was about 1980 or so, maybe 81, so I just pretty much eyeball everything. That being said, if I really want to eat something, I go ahead and do it, but by and large I limit my caloric intake via limiting carbohydrates and excessive fat intake.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with the 'energy in = energy out' equation isn't that it is wrong; it is that the 'energy out' term is impossible for an ordinary person to gauge.

Sure, some of the 'energy out' is due to excercise. But humans are homeothermic; most of the energy out is heat loss, and different people lose heat at different rates in identical conditions; and an individual's rate of heat loss varies due to a huge number of factors, including (but certainly not limited to) genetics, ambient temperature, the type of food consumed, the frequency of food consumption, body fat level, excercise, humidity, clothing worn, disease and pathogen exposure, medications taken, body shape (particularly skin area:volume ratio), stress levels, fatigue, and age.

So the 'energy in = energy out' equation is not wrong, but it is useless (except in very strictly controlled conditions that are never encountered outside a laboratory).

And even in a lab they are often inconsistent, regardless of how heavily we try to control them. Trying to control people's eating outside of a lab environment and then expect them to perform properly in the lab is often an utter joke.

 

[RavenSky]

Not all calories, be they fat, carb or protein, are created equal. People who eat healthy diets, that tiny minority of us, know this.

Really?

Some of us have been telling you that throughout this entire thread, and you became extremely rude telling us we were wrong. Now you agree?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Not all calories, be they fat, carb or protein, are created equal. People who eat healthy diets, that tiny minority of us, know this.

Really?

Some of us have been telling you that throughout this entire thread, and you became extremely rude telling us we were wrong. Now you agree?

Yes, I agree that you are wrong.

 

[RavenSky]

Really?

Some of us have been telling you that throughout this entire thread, and you became extremely rude telling us we were wrong. Now you agree?

Yes, I agree that you are wrong.

Ha ha you're so funny

EricK, Playball, Credo, Underseer, me and others have all been saying "not all calories, be they fat, carb or protein, are created equal" in various ways and with various studies to back us up since the OP. You have generally been telling us how wrong we are.

Now you claim "not all calories, be they fat, carb or protein, are created equal" as if you are some enlightened one with knowledge the rest of us haven't been telling you from the start.

So glad we were able to teach you a few facts about calories and the human body. You are welcome.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Yes, I agree that you are wrong.

Ha ha you're so funny

EricK, Playball, Credo, Underseer, me and others have all been saying "not all calories, be they fat, carb or protein, are created equal" in various ways and with various studies to back us up since the OP. You have generally been telling us how wrong we are.

Now you claim "not all calories, be they fat, carb or protein, are created equal" as if you are some enlightened one with knowledge the rest of us haven't been telling you from the start.

So glad we were able to teach you a few facts about calories and the human body. You are welcome.

Hardly the case. But you may believe as you wish.

 

[Playball40]

Obsessive is the constant thoughts that one has about food (in any capacity). Compulsive is the need to act on those thoughts (calorie counting, cutting up in small pieces, measuring, etc.) If you eat relatively intuitively, listen to your body's needs for food or water and aren't obsessively label reading, calorie counting, exercising (just to burn off a cookie), or personifying food into "good" or "bad" then you likely don't had disordered eating.

Ok, missed that.

Of course, what defines obsessive? I control my portion size, but I really do not need to weigh it any more because, well, the first time I cut to make weight was about 1980 or so, maybe 81, so I just pretty much eyeball everything. That being said, if I really want to eat something, I go ahead and do it, but by and large I limit my caloric intake via limiting carbohydrates and excessive fat intake.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with the 'energy in = energy out' equation isn't that it is wrong; it is that the 'energy out' term is impossible for an ordinary person to gauge.

Sure, some of the 'energy out' is due to excercise. But humans are homeothermic; most of the energy out is heat loss, and different people lose heat at different rates in identical conditions; and an individual's rate of heat loss varies due to a huge number of factors, including (but certainly not limited to) genetics, ambient temperature, the type of food consumed, the frequency of food consumption, body fat level, excercise, humidity, clothing worn, disease and pathogen exposure, medications taken, body shape (particularly skin area:volume ratio), stress levels, fatigue, and age.

So the 'energy in = energy out' equation is not wrong, but it is useless (except in very strictly controlled conditions that are never encountered outside a laboratory).

And even in a lab they are often inconsistent, regardless of how heavily we try to control them. Trying to control people's eating outside of a lab environment and then expect them to perform properly in the lab is often an utter joke.

 

[EricB]

Obsessive is the constant thoughts that one has about food (in any capacity). Compulsive is the need to act on those thoughts (calorie counting, cutting up in small pieces, measuring, etc.) If you eat relatively intuitively, listen to your body's needs for food or water and aren't obsessively label reading, calorie counting, exercising (just to burn off a cookie), or personifying food into "good" or "bad" then you likely don't had disordered eating.

I eat the same shit most days. Makes it easy to keep my diet on track. Most people that know me tell me they do not understand how I manage to stay in shape, etc. then, of course, they bitch about my dietary habits.

Go figure.

I have a cheat meal planned every week, and then I eat whatever I want. Yes, sometimes I eat something else for dinner, but really, I do not do it that often.

And when I need to make weight, which I will do one or two more times before I am done with that shit forever, I can eat the same foods for 15 weeks straight if I have to.

So I guess it comes down to how someone defines things for themselves. Again, one of the reasons why I do not measure foods is because I just plain do not have to any more. Spent plenty of years doing exactly that, though.

 

[Playball40]

Obsessive is the constant thoughts that one has about food (in any capacity). Compulsive is the need to act on those thoughts (calorie counting, cutting up in small pieces, measuring, etc.) If you eat relatively intuitively, listen to your body's needs for food or water and aren't obsessively label reading, calorie counting, exercising (just to burn off a cookie), or personifying food into "good" or "bad" then you likely don't had disordered eating.

I eat the same shit most days. Makes it easy to keep my diet on track. Most people that know me tell me they do not understand how I manage to stay in shape, etc. then, of course, they bitch about my dietary habits.

Go figure.

I have a cheat meal planned every week, and then I eat whatever I want. Yes, sometimes I eat something else for dinner, but really, I do not do it that often.

And when I need to make weight, which I will do one or two more times before I am done with that shit forever, I can eat the same foods for 15 weeks straight if I have to.

So I guess it comes down to how someone defines things for themselves. Again, one of the reasons why I do not measure foods is because I just plain do not have to any more. Spent plenty of years doing exactly that, though.

I'm curious as to why you refer to one meal a "cheat" meal? Cheat who? Cheating implies something dishonest. Eating a meal you enjoy just because doesn't seem like a dishonest thing to me.

 

[EricB]

I eat the same shit most days. Makes it easy to keep my diet on track. Most people that know me tell me they do not understand how I manage to stay in shape, etc. then, of course, they bitch about my dietary habits.

Go figure.

I have a cheat meal planned every week, and then I eat whatever I want. Yes, sometimes I eat something else for dinner, but really, I do not do it that often.

And when I need to make weight, which I will do one or two more times before I am done with that shit forever, I can eat the same foods for 15 weeks straight if I have to.

So I guess it comes down to how someone defines things for themselves. Again, one of the reasons why I do not measure foods is because I just plain do not have to any more. Spent plenty of years doing exactly that, though.

I'm curious as to why you refer to one meal a "cheat" meal? Cheat who? Cheating implies something dishonest. Eating a meal you enjoy just because doesn't seem like a dishonest thing to me.

Convenient term of long habit. More of a mental game than anything else. From 30 or 35 years of disciplined dieting, it makes it feel more rewarding that way. May not make any sense to anyone else, but it does for me. This is even more the case when I have to make weight. Then it becomes more of a grind, and the thought of "cheating" makes it somehow more rewarded.

Stupid, but helps me stay on track.