• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Can cartilage in joints be made in adults?

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
8,592
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
To me this seems to a bit of a controversy between western and "naturopathic" etc.. .

Obviously, it grows well when we are young. But can it grow/repair to appreciable degrees as a fully grown adult even when you throw in MSM and Glucosamine Sulfate and so on.

If either position is wrong then negative effects come from that. Either lack of hope where some exists, or a false hope.

Anyone know about this?
 
I was discussing options for managing degenerative spinal disk issues with a consultant neurosurgeon a few weeks ago, and we covered analgesia, a variety of anti-inflamatories, surgical options, traction, and physiotherapy, amongst other things.

He mentioned glucosamine, and as I recall, his exact words were: "Don't bother with glucosamine, it's a scam".

Of course that's just one opinion, but coming from one of the most respected neurosurgeons in Australia, it is one to which I am inclined to give considerable weight.
 
I think that if it is a scam it may be from a kind of self-deception from naturopathic type people. I am NOT saying it is a scam. However, I would not trust anyone's authority and especially not someone who buys into things like homeopathy.

For supplements to be proven to actually aid for joint cartilage, you would need evidence that it actually works, I would think that high quality MRIs would be part of that evidence. Arthroscopic inspection before and after could also work.

I think that talking about the expensiveness and profit motive of "allopathic" arthritis type medicine may be a dodge for providing evidence that your naturopathic medicine works. The cost of Glucosamine is tiny and taking MRIs does not seems to be out of the financial range for some studies.

If Glucosamine helps with other aspects of joints (saying making them more fluid) that would be harder to measure and it not related to having more cartilage. This is a separate discussion.
 
As you might know, I used to have a health food store. I have personally seen enough before/after transformations to be convinced that glucosamine at the very least puts a smoothing coating over pitted joint surfaces.

I first heard of it long before I had any interest in nutrition, on Towards 200/Quantum/Catalyst/whatever incarnation of {this science show I respect} they were on at the time. That had to be more than 20 years ago. That show was specifically about shark cartilage, the percentage of chondroitin in that form of glucosamine is very high. It's gone downhill recently, but in its early days it was well researched.

When I opened the shop it wasn't long before people began to ask for glucosamine, on the recommendation of their Dr., and I had to get some in and read up a bit.

I saw some amazing transformations in the next 10 years. My favourite was the 82yo man who couldn't bend to pick up 10c before, but came in especially to show me and got down on his knees in quite sprightly fashion to illustrate the difference it had made.

Then I had my own experience with it. I was prescribed a drug for something else entirely when I was an active 53yo with just a buggered right knee, that had the unwanted side effect of loosening off all my ligaments. That meant that all my weight bearing joints were grinding in ways they weren't meant to and the other joints were doing things they weren't meant to, as well.

I stopped taking the drug and my ligaments slowly tightened up, though there is still a bit of slack in most of my joints, but a lot of damage was done and the pain and stiffness remained. To my shame, it took me more than a year of walking past glucosamine 30 times a day and advising others on the correct way to take it, before it occurred to me that I was a candidate.

I took my own advice. I take a total of 1500mg a day, plus at least 300mg of chondroitin and make sure I get some vit C every day, in tablet form if necessary. The brand I favour has the sulphur etc.that you mention incorporated.

Like you, I would like to see some formal studies. For myself, I am getting steady improvement but notice the difference if I am away from home or forget it for more than 3 days. I have also learned not to switch to a type with less than 200mg chondroitin. The economy isn't worth it.

What I gleaned from my reading and experience: Oral Glucosamine will deposit on joint surfaces but needs the presence of Chondroitin in most people. Chondroitin seems to help you produce synnovial fluid but I ran into people who COULDN'T take Chondroitin because their joints swelled and became unbendy. I would love to know if this was some sort of allergic reaction or a variation on the pressure suit phenomenon.

I don't believe for a minute you get the joints of your youth back, but it does seem to paper over the cracks. I have seen too many astounding increases in mobility to be able to dismiss it.

If you find any studies that have examined joints after extended use, either arthroscopically or post mortem, I would be interested.
 
I think that if there are actual effects from it (other than a powerful placebo effect - the confidence in mobility seems very primed for this) the timelines it takes for the supplements to have an effect would depend on the how the supplement works.

For it to help with a fine, smooth joint coating could be something that could take weeks to take effect and days to lose the effect. Same for somehow helping with joint fluids over and above just using the joints in a healthy way.

For helping with more intensive repair of joint surfaces and deeper into the matrix would require a longer timeline to take effect. Several months at least, I would guess.

I am curious what you mentioned about the supplement that loosened your ligaments. I would like to generally stay away from that one. I think that you need the proper compromise between strength and stability. Too much range of motion on a compromised joint seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
 
I think that if there are actual effects from it (other than a powerful placebo effect - the confidence in mobility seems very primed for this) the timelines it takes for the supplements to have an effect would depend on the how the supplement works.

For it to help with a fine, smooth joint coating could be something that could take weeks to take effect and days to lose the effect. Same for somehow helping with joint fluids over and above just using the joints in a healthy way.

For helping with more intensive repair of joint surfaces and deeper into the matrix would require a longer timeline to take effect. Several months at least, I would guess.

The average for people to notice a change seemed to be about 6 weeks. I have known people claim an effect in 2 weeks but in those cases the difference wasn't visible to an observer. I can't remember when I first noticed a change for myself, it was all few years ago.

I am curious what you mentioned about the supplement that loosened your ligaments. I would like to generally stay away from that one. I think that you need the proper compromise between strength and stability.

It wasn't a supplement, it was a prescription drug, as I mentioned. I am way ahead of you there, never touching that again. There were other nasty side effects as well as this one, and it permanently changed my life for the worse. Still pissed off with the doctor who advised me to keep taking it even after I told him about what was happening.

Too much range of motion on a compromised joint seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

Tell me about it. :)
 
Just because one sees an increase in joint mobility doesn't mean anything is happening to the cartilage.

To say there is a change in the cartilage requires taking before and after biopsies of the cartilage.
 
I think that the first chain of logic showing that they work is this:

Does it even get into the joints to begin with?

You could test it with other large adult animals, you could label the supplements with radio isotopes (still be the exact same chemical formula) and look at intervals.

Even topical DMSO could be examined - however that shit kind of freaks me out. But it seems to actually be the one thing that has the best bet of getting into joints - even if to destroy them (muahahaha!) This reminds me of a teacher I had a long time ago who had intense DMSO breath. Yuck. Like garlic and rotten eggs and fresh metal shavings.
 
There are injections used to treat arthritis. Don't they work by stimulating the growth of cartilage. Or is it something else?
 
Glucosamine is repeatedly coming up with negative results in study after study.


Ojuice5001:
There are injections used to treat arthritis. Don't they work by stimulating the growth of cartilage. Or is it something else?

I'm not aware of any injections that stimulate cartilage growth. The injections I'm familiar with are usually steroid-based in order to reduce inflammation and thus pain.
 
Glucosamine is repeatedly coming up with negative results in study after study.


Ojuice5001:
There are injections used to treat arthritis. Don't they work by stimulating the growth of cartilage? Or is it something else?

I'm not aware of any injections that stimulate cartilage growth. The injections I'm familiar with are usually steroid-based in order to reduce inflammation and thus pain.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. I was getting my information from someone who was getting such injections, and she didn't know enough about it to answer that question when I asked her.
 
I bet that some of them will say that it is a persecution by western medicine to make it look bad.
 
Back
Top Bottom