Can We Discuss Sex & Gender / Transgender People?

[Metaphor]

Therefore, I actually was born different. Gender dysphoria is not anything so transient as a daydream in my head or an idea. It is actually something that is objectively different about me. I am literally not really the same thing as a cis-man. I am something different.

But I haven't said there isn't something different about your brain compared to the brains of people who are not transgender-identified males. Your brain being a particular way does not change your sex. And when we form sex-segregated spaces, your sex is what matters, by definition.

In my area, most people are willing to be accommodating toward somebody that has a neurobiological difference that makes it stressful or uncomfortable for them to comply with conventional customs. This is normal social behavior, and it is not really normal for people to make other people's lives difficult if they don't really have to. My experience is that people tend to treat me respectfully.

I told you already how people in my area dealt with the issue. They simply desegregated their bathrooms, and this has also started a chain-reaction all over the nation. By desegregating all single-occupancy bathrooms in the area, they have not just skirted around the so-called "bathroom bill," but they are really doing something even more revolutionary. They are abolishing the idea that single-occupancy bathrooms really have to be segregated. They are genuinely changing the whole world.

As a transgender person, I think it's kind of rad that we have acted as a social catalyst. I think that the good that desegregation does, for society, will extend beyond just ourselves.

"Single occupancy" - to be clear you mean a single stall in a room with no common areas for hand washing/drying etc - is already unisex, surely?

 

[Enigma]

Well, until we develop a litmus test, we are stuck with human judgment. Your objection seems to be based solely on the "No perfect solution" fallacy.

Human judgment as in people in society need to create and use a solution that minimizes the number/severity of errors compared to a perfect solution, yes we need such a solution.
Your solution of asking the teachers and staff to make the judgment call is one such solution. I believe we are in agreement that it is not a perfect solution. However, it is not the only possible solution that has been specified in this thread.

On the @Metaphor and @Emily Lake side of the discussion, we have the solution to limit locker room usage by sex and reject any notion from students that their claimed gender identity should give them access to the other sex's locker room. I believe we would agree that this is not a perfect solution.
On the @Jarhyn side of the discussion, we have the solution to remove the restriction of usage by sex on the locker room entirely and handle any resulting issues as they arise. I don't believe this is a perfect solution, though I don't have a solid indication from you either way as to your thoughts on it.

Since we have at least 3 different possible solutions, none of which are perfect, are they all equally good? No.

For roughly the same reason that while everybody would agree that the court system isn't perfect, nobody here is going to seriously argue that criminal trials should be replaced with rolling a 20-sided die and using the following table to specify results:

20	Defendant is given $1,000,000 and given a redeemable "Commit 1 Free Crime" card.
11 or more	Defendant is found not guilty.
10 or less	Defendant is found guilty. Give standard sentence for crimes accused.
1	Defendant is summarily executed by a method randomly chosen from the George Carlin standup routine about the Death Penalty.

Where human judgment comes in is determining how often a proposed solution gets it right (True Positives, True Negatives), vs getting it wrong (False Positives, False Negatives), and determining how negative it is when it gets things wrong (i.e. The burden of proof is on the prosecution because it is generally believed that it is better that a guilty man go free than an innocent man get imprisoned).

Framed this way, the best possible solution is the one that minimizes the following:

(Likelihood of False Positives for a given solution) * (Negative Effects of a False Positive for a given solution) + (Likelihood of False Negatives for a given solution) * (Negative Effects of a False Negative for a given solution)

Reasonable people can disagree on the values of these parameters, hence reasonable people can come to different conclusions as to which solution is the best one, so long as there isn't a perfect solution.

All of that being said, I'd like to toss another (probably imperfect, but hopefully less so) solution into the thread:

A while back @SigmatheZeta made a post I found interesting:

Not only that, but transgender people are clearly physiologically different from others. Here you go:

The results of this study show that the white matter microstruc-

ture in FtM and MtF transsexuals falls halfway between that of

FCs and MCs. Our data harmonize with the hypothesis that fiber

tract development is influenced by the hormonal environment

during late prenatal and early postnatal brain development that is

proposed to determine gender identity.

If this is the case and one can make this determination via a MRI or other scan, then why isn't this either a litmus test or the next best thing to one in terms of determining if someone is actually trans?
If it can be used to provide an objective datapoint one can point at when one claims to be trans, then why shouldn't it be used as such?

 

[SigmatheZeta]

And by the way, @Metaphor, Illinois passed a bill allowing multi-stall all-gender bathrooms back in April this year.

House passes gender-neutral bathroom bill over Republican concerns that one Democrat dubbed ‘transphobic’

The measure was backed by LGBTQ advocates, but state Rep. Katie Stuart, D-Edwardsville, said she was looking to the many businesses that want to have multi-stall gender neutral bathrooms “either because their patrons or their employees have asked for it. But our laws don’t allow it.”

chicago.suntimes.com

This is part of a movement that started in my own back yard, and it is pretty exciting. I expect to see more bills like this being passed.

For people that do not believe that they are ready for this kind of idea, then I would take this as a cautionary tale. Before the anti-transgender "bathroom bill" that was passed in North Carolina, nobody would have thought about this idea. Before, most people just turned a blind eye whenever a transgender person, "passable" or not, went to use the bathroom. Most people were comfortable with the status quo, and nobody wanted to ruin somebody's day by putting custom before courtesy. It was easier to just be considerate. What that bill did was to take desegregation from the status of "an interesting idea that we might try someday" to something more like a moral imperative.

 

[Metaphor]

1	Defendant is summarily executed by a method randomly chosen from the George Carlin standup routine about the Death Penalty.

Can I make Con saving throw to see if I survive the execution attempt?

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Well, until we develop a litmus test, we are stuck with human judgment. Your objection seems to be based solely on the "No perfect solution" fallacy.

Human judgment as in people in society need to create and use a solution that minimizes the number/severity of errors compared to a perfect solution, yes we need such a solution.
Your solution of asking the teachers and staff to make the judgment call is one such solution. I believe we are in agreement that it is not a perfect solution. However, it is not the only possible solution that has been specified in this thread.

On the @Metaphor and @Emily Lake side of the discussion, we have the solution to limit locker room usage by sex and reject any notion from students that their claimed gender identity should give them access to the other sex's locker room. I believe we would agree that this is not a perfect solution.
On the @Jarhyn side of the discussion, we have the solution to remove the restriction of usage by sex on the locker room entirely and handle any resulting issues as they arise. I don't believe this is a perfect solution, though I don't have a solid indication from you either way as to your thoughts on it.

Since we have at least 3 different possible solutions, none of which are perfect, are they all equally good? No.

For roughly the same reason that while everybody would agree that the court system isn't perfect, nobody here is going to seriously argue that criminal trials should be replaced with rolling a 20-sided die and using the following table to specify results:

20	Defendant is given $1,000,000 and given a redeemable "Commit 1 Free Crime" card.
11 or more	Defendant is found not guilty.
10 or less	Defendant is found guilty. Give standard sentence for crimes accused.
1	Defendant is summarily executed by a method randomly chosen from the George Carlin standup routine about the Death Penalty.

Where human judgment comes in is determining how often a proposed solution gets it right (True Positives, True Negatives), vs getting it wrong (False Positives, False Negatives), and determining how negative it is when it gets things wrong (i.e. The burden of proof is on the prosecution because it is generally believed that it is better that a guilty man go free than an innocent man get imprisoned).

Framed this way, the best possible solution is the one that minimizes the following:

(Likelihood of False Positives for a given solution) * (Negative Effects of a False Positive for a given solution) + (Likelihood of False Negatives for a given solution) * (Negative Effects of a False Negative for a given solution)

Reasonable people can disagree on the values of these parameters, hence reasonable people can come to different conclusions as to which solution is the best one, so long as there isn't a perfect solution.

All of that being said, I'd like to toss another (probably imperfect, but hopefully less so) solution into the thread:

A while back @SigmatheZeta made a post I found interesting:

Not only that, but transgender people are clearly physiologically different from others. Here you go:

The results of this study show that the white matter microstruc-

ture in FtM and MtF transsexuals falls halfway between that of

FCs and MCs. Our data harmonize with the hypothesis that fiber

tract development is influenced by the hormonal environment

during late prenatal and early postnatal brain development that is

proposed to determine gender identity.

If this is the case and one can make this determination via a MRI or other scan, then why isn't this either a litmus test or the next best thing to one in terms of determining if someone is actually trans?
If it can be used to provide an objective datapoint one can point at when one claims to be trans, then why shouldn't it be used as such?

It sounds like a great idea! Let's raise taxes and fund it!

I love the idea, but MRI scans are a little bit expensive.

 

[none]

Wetaphor did Metaphor ask that question about transgender folks in sports?
are we talking the army navy game here or is this a falcon versus buffs game?

 

[Metaphor]

Wetaphor did Metaphor ask that question about transgender folks in sports?
are we talking the army navy game here or is this a falcon versus buffs game?

Did I ask what question?

 

[none]

Wetaphor did Metaphor ask that question about transgender folks in sports?
are we talking the army navy game here or is this a falcon versus buffs game?

Did I ask what question?

I dunno maybe you deleted it because it was so stupid.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

ETA: Did you think she's a transwoman?

No. The facial features / structure were certainly feminine. Thought a case of hirsutism.

Well, I'm glad you wouldn't call the cops if she used the Women's restroom but do you think that holds true for everyone in places where trans exclusion bills have been passed?

I'm sure there are people that are crazy enough to stand next to women's restrooms holding Uzis. I'm waiting for one of them to get on the news after murdering a hirsute woman.

 

[Enigma]

1	Defendant is summarily executed by a method randomly chosen from the George Carlin standup routine about the Death Penalty.

Can I make Con saving throw to see if I survive the execution attempt?

No, but in order to prevent a complete collapse of the legal sector of the economy and ensuring that some classism is maintained it's only proper to allow those who hire sufficiently expensive legal counsel advantage.

 

[ZiprHead]

I find it interesting that nobody is answering Metaphor's question about Rachel Dolezal, a white woman who identifies as black.

there is also this woman:

Martina Big - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In January 2017, Big had a medical treatment that attempted to turn her appearance into that of a black woman.[7] In February 2018, she traveled to Nyeri, Kenya, where Pastor Isaac Murage of the Gichira Baptist Church baptized her, and, according to Big, declared her to be a "true African woman." She was given the baptismal name Malaika Kubwa; in Swahili, malaika means angel and kubwa means big.[9][10][11]"

What do you guys think about this one? This is truly some stuff that really makes you think.

This is a derail. Stop it now. So is Metaphor's question.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Bottom-line: there is clear neurobiological evidence for the argument that transgender people are probably born transgender, I just have to pee, I really strongly like people that bother to ask about my pronouns, and parental support can take a transgender kid's chances of attempted suicide from 60% down to 3%.

Objections seem to be, primarily:

A) semantics arguments, which are...semantics arguments...and

B) objections against critical theory, which I do not even really follow.

Does that about sum it up?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Where I do end up with some hesitation is when a penis ends up in the girls showers in middle school. Or when a penis gets housed with female prisoners. My care is for situations where sex actually does matter.

And so what if a penis shows up in a middle school? What harm is it going to do???

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's kind of the whole issue with Louden County. A male-bodied person raped a female-bodied person in the girl's restroom. The male-bodied person wore skirts pretty regularly, and the school has a policy of inclusion which supports students using the bathroom that fits whatever they say their gender is.

I mean, seriously... the state of California has decided to allow male-bodied, unaltered, undiagnosed prisoners to be housed in the women's prison solely on the basis of their claim to be transwomen.

And nobody has been raped in a girl's bathroom by a male-presenting male??

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That's kind of the whole issue with Louden County. A male-bodied person raped a female-bodied person in the girl's restroom. The male-bodied person wore skirts pretty regularly, and the school has a policy of inclusion which supports students using the bathroom that fits whatever they say their gender is.

I mean, seriously... the state of California has decided to allow male-bodied, unaltered, undiagnosed prisoners to be housed in the women's prison solely on the basis of their claim to be transwomen.

And nobody has been raped in a girl's bathroom by a male-presenting male??

Emily's example wasn't an example of anything she was alleging. The Louden County case was a criminal act of sexual assault perpetrated against a teen girl who had had sex in some form with the assaulter before. The victim stated they both planned on meeting in the bathroom where she was assaulted by the perpetrator. That he wore skirts didn't mean much and the transgender policy for the County didn't even go into effect until after the crime was committed. This wasn't a case of a guy pretending to be transgender with the intention of assaulting some random person.

I'm glad Emily Lake hasn't tried to defend her poor judgment in defending her position with the unrelated crime of a rape of that teenager.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is rare for a trans woman to be housed in a women’s prison compared to the number of guards in women’s prisons who are male.

How do you know? The ACLU blocks freedom of information requests to get statistics of the number of transwomen in the female estate.

Also, are you implicitly agreeing that transwomen are in fact male and that maleness is a threat to the women in the female estate?

The people making those FOIA requests are trying to identify the transwomen, not merely count them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've never seen anyone else's genitalia in a public bathroom. I couldn't care less if there was a female in the stall next to me.

I have, multiple times. Most restrooms are small enough that you simply have a single line of urinals against a wall. However, when you get into really large facilities (the ones I have encountered are large airports, large convention centers. I suspect large stadiums but I've never been in a large stadium to know) will have multiple walls of facilities. The result is you will sometimes turn a corner so as to be facing along a line of urinals, if that line isn't packed you're liable to see some dicks. I've even seen an airport facility where there's a wall edge-on to the entrance with a short end-cap, urinals along both sides of that wall and stalls on the outer sides. Everyone entering that restroom who doesn't take the first stall is going to end up facing along a line of urinals.

 

[none]

I've never seen anyone else's genitalia in a public bathroom. I couldn't care less if there was a female in the stall next to me.

I have, multiple times. Most restrooms are small enough that you simply have a single line of urinals against a wall. However, when you get into really large facilities (the ones I have encountered are large airports, large convention centers. I suspect large stadiums but I've never been in a large stadium to know) will have multiple walls of facilities. The result is you will sometimes turn a corner so as to be facing along a line of urinals, if that line isn't packed you're liable to see some dicks. I've even seen an airport facility where there's a wall edge-on to the entrance with a short end-cap, urinals along both sides of that wall and stalls on the outer sides. Everyone entering that restroom who doesn't take the first stall is going to end up facing along a line of urinals.

isn't that traumatic....

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’m still not certain that I know whether this is a woman, a man or a trans individual. I should be, I suppose. But I’m not.

For a bunch of years, it made me uncomfortable, this ambiguity and not being able to place them in some neatly labeled box.

I suppose that I could actually say, ‘hey, we’ve been running into each other for years and I don’t even know your name’—which might give a good clue—or maybe their name is like mine: appropriate for male or female.

And then I got a clue: it was my problem, not theirs. There was zero reason or context under which it made any difference to me at all.

Exactly. If you're not contemplating taking them to bed what bits they have are utterly irrelevant. (Excluding modelling/acting situations.)

Even if they were in the same bathroom as me.

Once again, exactly.

BTW, I think single stall non-gendered bathrooms are the way to go….

I don't even think it needs to be single stall. One restroom, stalls, urinals and sinks. Those who are able and want to use urinals may, the others use stalls.

 

[Playball40]

I'll put it the way I normally do: sex is the thing you need to consider when you wish to make babies.

That's clearly not true.

I have a clear and unambiguous sex. I am male. Nothing to do with making babies.

I also have a clear and unambiguous gender, man. I am a man, even if you don't like it. No doubt about that and there never was. I'm also gay.

Sex is different from gender. Sex and gender are different from orientation.

You aren't very good at recognizing these distinctions.
Tom

Let's consider this, then: what difference does your "clear and unambiguous" sex make?

Now, you obviously have some concept of what it is to be a man and you play to that. You feel that you ought.

The geometry of "sex" relates explicitly to making babies.

Note that word "need". You don't "need" to consider it for any other thing, not even for an orgasm, unless you are hopelessly fetish locked. Most people can masturbate without there being an immediately available genital of some specific shape other than their own.

There are certainly wants and hangups people have, but considering it of any person is not a need other than in the consideration of (me+them=kid?).

You don't need to consider it at any other moment of your life.

But every time you say "trans people" you are admitting that there is a right way to be a man or woman, otherwise why have the label of trans in the first place?

No. At the least, it admits there is a way (typical, popular, traditional, whatever) to determine man/woman, and this individual declines that way.
The fact that they disagree with the (tptw) way means they also disagree that it's the right way. The term acknowledges the disagreeance.

But now we are getting down to definitions. Words mean things. This is why we have definitions:

The definition of man is "adult human male"
The definition of woman is "adult human female."
The definition of trans man is "a man who was assigned female at birth." This makes the technical definition "an adult human male who was assigned female at birth."
The definition of trans woman is "a woman who was assigned male at birth." This makes the technical definition "an adult human female who was assigned male at birth."

Do these definitions make sense to you? They don't to me.

There is no way to define "man" or "woman" that includes trans woman or trans men. Many have tried and end up tying themselves in knots and going in circles. It just can't be done. If a trans woman asked, "Do you consider me a woman?" you guys would say "yes, of course." But then the question becomes, "What do you mean by the word 'woman'?" Likewise, If a trans man asked, "Do you consider me a man?" you guys would say "yes, of course." But then the question becomes, "What do you mean by the word 'woman'?" and "What do you mean by the word 'man'?"

It is not possible to answer these questions with a definition. Trust me, I've been reading about this for a long time online and also thinking about it in my mind and there is just no way you can do it. However, I am hoping someone can do it for me. There is simply no way to define man or woman other than "adult human male" or "adult human female."

Please try, guys. I am all ears. This is another very hard part about this. You don't understand how much this is driving me nuts.

No, words don't mean things. All meanings of words are explicitly imaginary and arbitrary. Otherwise "god" being defined would mean "god" exists or is real.

Man and Woman are imaginary, and can mean and be formed however they may become useful.

You are here and as expected in the first page of one of your first posts here in which you claim faith in wishing to understand reveal out of the other side of your mouth bad faith in proclaiming certainty. You are not here to discuss, were I to judge by your post, but here to engage in a form of Rhetoric of JAQing Off; this is all you have done this far.

Help me understand otherwise?

Absolutely not. I already stated I don't have a problem with trans people. However, I am afraid if they ask me, "Do you think I'm a man/woman?" I can't answer "yes" to the question. This means they will get angry at me and say I am being disrespectful and hateful, but this is not my intention. For example, we all know there are drag queens who look like women and dress in extravagant dresses but still say they are male/men. I have no problem with this.

But when you have 2 people dressed as a woman and one says "I'm a woman" and another says, "I'm still a man" it becomes insanely confusing. It would be so much easier if trans woman/trans men viewed themselves like drag queens do. I understand they don't want to view themselves this way and want to be viewed as a man or a woman, but we have no way of understanding what those words mean when it applies to trans women/trans men.

We don't have adequate definitions of these words. I have no idea what a trans woman means when they say, "I am a woman" or when a trans man say, "I am a man." These words have to mean something to them otherwise there's no point to say you are a trans man/trans woman. This is simply a matter of definitions, it's not a matter of disliking them or hating them. Far from it. I want to understand what they mean by these terms so I don't get looked at as a hateful lunatic if I encounter one in person. Can you understand this?

Why would ANY transgendered person ask for YOUR validation? And if in the realm of impossibility, someone does - why would you feel the need to say "no" outside of just being cruel and hurtful. Gender doesn't always match they external biological sex organs. Period. It's really NOT difficult to understand even if it is difficult for you to imagine.