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Cardinal George Pell, convicted paedophile

As far as I am aware, this case was only one of several that the Police and magistrates felt had enough evidence to have been prosecuted. There were also other allegations, but some were deemed to have insufficient evidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pell#Accusations_and_charges_regarding_sexual_abuse

Yes, there's apparently a long list of accusations. But this type of crime is notoriously hard to convict for. He'd never been convicted if it wasn't for the volume of accusations.
 
Pell's own lawyer has tried to minimise the rape as a “plain vanilla sexual penetration case where the child is not actively participating”.

So the defence lawyer has agreed that Pell really did put his penis in a child.
 
Yes, that is bizarre.
But once the jury has convicted, the accused's lawyer has to proceed on that basis and argue for sentencing leniency in recognition of that verdict.
 
Yes, that is bizarre.
But once the jury has convicted, the accused's lawyer has to proceed on that basis and argue for sentencing leniency in recognition of that verdict.

So, you’re saying that because of the guilty verdict, the lawyer was legally forced to perjure himself and provide false details of an assault which never happened?

Australian laws are weird. They also apparently forbid people from dressing up as Batman and Robin.
 
Yes, that is bizarre.
But once the jury has convicted, the accused's lawyer has to proceed on that basis and argue for sentencing leniency in recognition of that verdict.

So, you’re saying that because of the guilty verdict, the lawyer was legally forced to perjure himself and provide false details of an assault which never happened?

Australian laws are weird. They also apparently forbid people from dressing up as Batman and Robin.

But apparently not as Jesus.
 
Yes, that is bizarre.
But once the jury has convicted, the accused's lawyer has to proceed on that basis and argue for sentencing leniency in recognition of that verdict.

Quoting DailyBeast:

Cardinal George Pell was taken into custody Wednesday after his lawyer argued that one of his offenses was a “plain vanilla sexual penetration case where the child is not actively participating.”

Lawyer Robert Richter made the claim while pushing for a lower sentence in a Melbourne court on Wednesday morning, asserting that the 77-year-old former Vatican treasurer had “no aggravating circumstances” and was likely “seized by some irresistible impulse,” The Guardian reports.

Pell's defense clearly lawyer believes that his client is guilty of the charges. If Richter was simply pleading for a lesser sentence based on the argument that the crime did not involve aggravating circumstances, he would not have added "seized by some irresistible impulse" to his statement. That part only makes sense if Richter knows/believes Pell committed the act.

It is Richter's job and ethical obligation to defend his client. But why someone like you would feel compelled to defend a convicted pedophile is beyond me.
 
Convicted doesn't mean he did it. If he had been acquitted I'm sure there would be tons of people arguing that the jury got it wrong.
 
Convicted doesn't mean he did it. If he had been acquitted I'm sure there would be tons of people arguing that the jury got it wrong.

You skipped over the part of my post where I establish that Pell's lawyer thinks Pell did it. That Pell was seized by an irresistible impulse upon seeing the boy and penetrated the boy's anus in a somewhat unremarkable manner. You can't understand why everyone is making such a fuss about it; the boy had clearly been placed there by the devil to tempt Pell, and deserved to be taught a lesson.

Here we have a Cardinal of the Roman Church, a member of an elite group of God's own representatives on Earth, anointed in holy oils and dressed up in holy robes. Buggering young boys entrusted to his care. Pell's conviction is a start but there are thousands more like him. Going about their lives, hiding in plain sight, secure in the knowledge that the Church will never turn them in. And who can blame the priests when their lord and master does the same thing - stand by and do nothing, or heap violence and death on innocent children.
 
Historicaly the RCC was a power system focused on polical power. acquisition of wealth, and personal power. There can be no dispute over that.

There was no real celibacy. Morality was imposed on ignorant masses as a control mechanism.

From what I read welthy clerics had erotic art collections, I'd have to look up the name, there was the pope that went aroung wicking the penis on statues and adding fig leaves on paintings.

I went to RCC schools 1-12. In grammar school in the 50s boys were subjected to recruitment by religious orders. Films and literature.

Take a Catholic kid who may never had any kind of female relationship at all, post high school put him in a 4 year seminary isolated from normal sexual socialization, and then put him in the world with no experience.

We are genetically programed to mate. I suppose when they get a hard on the traditional response is a little self flagellation, promoted by old Augustine.

What he hell does the RCC expect?

There was a scandal in the Vatican in the 90s about a priest who along with his priestly duties in Rome had a regular sex life.

There have been Vatican sex scandals we have known about, who knows what goes on in the Vatican.

An ex nun wrote a tell all about how common sex is between priests and nuns.

It is a twisted isolated archaic culture. Sex is a holy sacrament? Give me a break.
 
Convicted doesn't mean he did it. If he had been acquitted I'm sure there would be tons of people arguing that the jury got it wrong.

You skipped over the part of my post where I establish that Pell's lawyer thinks Pell did it. That Pell was seized by an irresistible impulse upon seeing the boy and penetrated the boy's anus in a somewhat unremarkable manner. You can't understand why everyone is making such a fuss about it; the boy had clearly been placed there by the devil to tempt Pell, and deserved to be taught a lesson.

Here we have a Cardinal of the Roman Church, a member of an elite group of God's own representatives on Earth, anointed in holy oils and dressed up in holy robes. Buggering young boys entrusted to his care. Pell's conviction is a start but there are thousands more like him. Going about their lives, hiding in plain sight, secure in the knowledge that the Church will never turn them in. And who can blame the priests when their lord and master does the same thing - stand by and do nothing, or heap violence and death on innocent children.

Richter uses mitigating 'arguendo' pleas solely to reduce the penalty. It is standard practice.
If he had asked for sentencing leniency on the grounds that Pell was (still) innocent, guess what the Judge would have said.
 
Yes, that is bizarre.
But once the jury has convicted, the accused's lawyer has to proceed on that basis and argue for sentencing leniency in recognition of that verdict.

He doesn't have to if his client chooses otherwise, in order to defend his reputation. That would have made sense, and would have been in line with his persistent denial. The defense as described does not (also, because it is ridiculously bad; see, for example, this article).

- - - Updated - - -

Convicted doesn't mean he did it. If he had been acquitted I'm sure there would be tons of people arguing that the jury got it wrong.

You skipped over the part of my post where I establish that Pell's lawyer thinks Pell did it. That Pell was seized by an irresistible impulse upon seeing the boy and penetrated the boy's anus in a somewhat unremarkable manner. You can't understand why everyone is making such a fuss about it; the boy had clearly been placed there by the devil to tempt Pell, and deserved to be taught a lesson.

Here we have a Cardinal of the Roman Church, a member of an elite group of God's own representatives on Earth, anointed in holy oils and dressed up in holy robes. Buggering young boys entrusted to his care. Pell's conviction is a start but there are thousands more like him. Going about their lives, hiding in plain sight, secure in the knowledge that the Church will never turn them in. And who can blame the priests when their lord and master does the same thing - stand by and do nothing, or heap violence and death on innocent children.

Richter uses mitigating 'arguendo' pleas solely to reduce the penalty. It is standard practice.
If he had asked for sentencing leniency on the grounds that Pell was (still) innocent, guess what the Judge would have said.

Maybe, though that is not what people commenting on that - even law experts - are saying. Still, without access to the transcript, I'm not sure. And neither should you be.
 
Not an atheist.
Not a fair trial.
Not guilty.
Church haters gonna hate.

They have their scapegoat scalp and it wouldn't matter what defence Pell's legal team put up.

How do you know he is not guilty? Assuming the trial was unfair, there is no conclusive evidence of guilt, but there surely isn't conclusive or even good evidence of a lack of guilt.
 
It is as open to me to believe Pell's credibility as it is for someone, like phands, sitting in the jury, to believe the accuser instead.
 
Richter's pre-sentencing argument wasn't the first time he had pointed out that only a madman suddenly "seized by some irresistible impulse" would do what Pell was being accused of.
 
It is as open to me to believe Pell's credibility as it is for someone, like phands, sitting in the jury, to believe the accuser instead.
Hmm...it is not open to me. Based on what I read (which I do choose), I find myself not believing either side (that I do not choose), due to insufficient information.
But anyway, I was asking how you know he is not guilty, not about the similarities you think exist between you and phands. Do you have some links in support of your position?
 
It is as open to me to believe Pell's credibility as it is for someone, like phands, sitting in the jury, to believe the accuser instead.
Hmm...it is not open to me. Based on what I read (which I do choose), I find myself not believing either side (that I do not choose), due to insufficient information.
But anyway, I was asking how you know he is not guilty, not about the similarities you think exist between you and phands. Do you have some links in support of your position?

I already said why I think he is innocent.

Only one person I've spoken with out of dozens has the reaction of Lion that this is just a conspiracy...

Really?
There was a lot of 'real catholics' vox pops in the media yesterday and today expressing the view that the jury got it wrong.

Pell was convicted
…more two decades after the alleged event,
…on the uncorroborated evidence
…of one single witness,
…without any forensic evidence,
…without a pattern of behaviour,
…without a confession.

It is rare to even run a serious case like this on the word of one witness - let alone gain a conviction.

Pell certainly does not fit the usual pattern of paedophile clergy abusers who typically;
...identify vulnerable potential victims,
...groom them
...isolate them,
...commit the offences in private
...pressure the victims into silence.
...admit their (born-that-way) sexual preference for minors

Historically, the vast majority of (successful) prosecutions have involved multiple individual victims who all (on their own behalf) testify to similar pattern of offending.

Pell had access to hundreds of boys over his career from among whom he could have easily groomed the vulnerable.

Instead, he supposedly;
…perpetrated a one off, opportunistic attack
…on two unknown boys
…whom he unexpectedly found in the sacristy
…immediately after High Mass at Australia’s largest cathedral
…on the busiest day of the Church week
…when the Cathedral precinct was teeming with several hundred church goers and dozens of diocesan officials.
…in broad daylight in an unsecured, unlocked public area.
…where the risk of being caught in the act was unfathomably high for the sort of crimes paedophiles commit.

In the words of one crime reporter, he had no idea whether one of these nameless boys was the son of the Chief Police Commissioner, the Prime Minister or the Chief Justice who were waiting outside to collect them.

Pell could not have known if one of them would scream for help or walk straight out and blow the whistle on him - and with two kids (two witnesses) in the room he would have been sunk. These are not the actions of a cunning, experienced paedophile who usually turns out to be a serial offender.

Yet no-one has alleged Pell had a history of this type of crime.

Consider also the public record of Pell's behaviour leading up to the alleged events.

16th July 1996 Pell takes up appointment as Archbishop of Melb

Thereupon, Archbishop Pell almost immediately instructs the respected law firm Corrs Chambers Westgarth (Corrs), solicitors for the Archdiocese of Melbourne, to put together a new scheme for responding to claims of child sexual abuse within the Archdiocese. (Remember, lawyers are officers of the court - this isn't Better Call Saul.)

30 October 1996, Archbishop Pell announced the Melbourne Response and appoints independent Commissioners to inquire into allegations of sexual abuse, with an explicit, and transparent public accountability mandate that they must;
...immediately inform any/every complainant that they have an unfettered and continuing right to take their complaint to the police
...And that they must encourage the exercise of that right
...And that they must not act in any way that would prevent or hinder any police investigation in respect of allegations of sexual abuse by Church personnel.

November 1996, less than one month after the Melbourne Response was announced, Pell along with the Bishops Conference approves the Towards Healing protocol – confidential payments to victims who wish to remain anonymous and explicitly don’t want exercise their rights to take the matter to police.

A month later December 2016….

Archbishop Pell allegedly returns to the cathedral sacristy after having just presided over the 11am Mass, and allegedly discovers the highly unusual presence of an unidentified 13 year old choir boy (who should not have been there at the time) sneaking a sip or two of altar wine in the company of another boy - also a choir boy (of course.)
Pell apparently forgets that he himself has just authorised the most unprecedented level of scrutiny and no-holds-barred investigation into the scourge of clergy paedophilia in the history of RCC in this country. And, despite the lack of locks, on the open doors, and the regular passers by, he allegedly decides to molest both boys - one after the other.

Surely all the atheist skeptics here at TFF can appreciate my skepticism. And these alleged events aren't even 2000 years old yet.
 
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