Cease fire violation pot

[Derec]

There is supposedly a three day humanitarian ceasefire on. But chances are slim that itchy trigger fingers of the guys from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others will manage to hold out that long.
So how long will the truce actually last?

I am guessing 16 hours. Any others?

By the way, this is a handy website where one can see how long it's been since the last rocket has been shot at Israel. The count is at 34 minutes now.

 

[untermensche]

Where's the website showing every time Israel fires on some Palestinian child?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I really don't care. Does that make me a horrible person?

 

[Barbarian]

Two hours, was it?

 

[Derec]

I was giving Hamas way too much credit it appears.

If it is war these subhuman animals want, Israel should oblige them and unleash hell on Earth, that would make what happen so far like 4th of July fireworks!

Apropos, untermensche, do you think cowardly violations of ceasefire agreements and kidnappings of soldiers during ceasefires are also "legitimate resistance" like you think all other Hamas actions are?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, didn't Israel mainly agree to the ceasefire because they've slaughtered so many defenseless children evil terrorists that they're running out of bullets and they're taking a break to use the US sponsored ceasefire to get a bunch more US ammunition shipped in?

Also, Hamas is less of an army and more of a group of crazy-assed murderous psychos with a vague and ill-defined agenda that they don't even understand. I imagine that orders from the leadership to stand down are met with less responses of "Yes sir" and more which are along the lines of "Stop telling me what to do or I'll shoot you in the face with this rocket and then shoot at Israel with one of the other ones in the corner there". The Hamas leadership doesn't really have the authority or ability to implement a ceasefire even if they wanted one.

 

[Bronzeage]

Well, didn't Israel mainly agree to the ceasefire because they've slaughtered so many defenseless children evil terrorists that they're running out of bullets and they're taking a break to use the US sponsored ceasefire to get a bunch more US ammunition shipped in?

Also, Hamas is less of an army and more of a group of crazy-assed murderous psychos with a vague and ill-defined agenda that they don't even understand. I imagine that orders from the leadership to stand down are met with less responses of "Yes sir" and more which are along the lines of "Stop telling me what to do or I'll shoot you in the face with this rocket and then shoot at Israel with one of the other ones in the corner there". The Hamas leadership doesn't really have the authority or ability to implement a ceasefire even if they wanted one.

Hamas probably has more control than you give credit. Israel's main complaint is the rockets fired across the border. The rockets are constructed in Gaza. I imagine there are several underground rocket shops, but it is a skilled trade. It's not likely the knowledge and skills are known by front line fighters. There has to be a central control over rocket production and distribution, especially as materials become scarce.

This does not mean their strategy is the best, or even that it's really a strategy. In an ordinary conflict, the losing side always wants a cease fire because it gives them the time to regroup and resupply. Hamas's only chance for victory(their idea of victory) in this situation is to bring international pressure on Israel to withdraw. This will be followed by dancing in the streets of Gaza and firing rifles into the air.

This has happened before and it always ends the same way. Israel pounds the living shit out of homes and buildings. Hospitals and schools are alway hit and civilians are killed. Sooner or later, Israel withdraws and the Palestinians(Lebanese, Syrians, etc) declare victory, no matter their losses, simply because they "stood up to Israel and survived," followed by dancing in the street and firing rifles into the air.

This is the hazard of fighting someone who thinks they have nothing to lose.

 

[Jayjay]

Looks like Hamas was able to capture an IDF soldier. This is the "victory" that Hamas was looking for, and I expect Hamas to start whining about ceasefire more now, whereas Israel is likely to expand its operation at least temporarily and try to search for the missing soldier.

I think the captive is already locked up in an underground bunker somewhere in Gaza and it's unlikely that he'll be rescued.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, didn't Israel mainly agree to the ceasefire because they've slaughtered so many defenseless children evil terrorists that they're running out of bullets and they're taking a break to use the US sponsored ceasefire to get a bunch more US ammunition shipped in?

Also, Hamas is less of an army and more of a group of crazy-assed murderous psychos with a vague and ill-defined agenda that they don't even understand. I imagine that orders from the leadership to stand down are met with less responses of "Yes sir" and more which are along the lines of "Stop telling me what to do or I'll shoot you in the face with this rocket and then shoot at Israel with one of the other ones in the corner there". The Hamas leadership doesn't really have the authority or ability to implement a ceasefire even if they wanted one.

Hamas probably has more control than you give credit. Israel's main complaint is the rockets fired across the border. The rockets are constructed in Gaza. I imagine there are several underground rocket shops, but it is a skilled trade. It's not likely the knowledge and skills are known by front line fighters. There has to be a central control over rocket production and distribution, especially as materials become scarce.

Ya, but once the fighters have the rockets, I don't think that there's much of a motivation for them to listen to their superiors if they tell them not to use the rockets. They just want to kill Israelis and if they come back for more rockets after the ceasefire, the leadership isn't likely to say "I'm sorry, but you disobeyed orders and we can't use you anymore, so we're going to fire you as an insurgent because trained fighters who have shown a willingness to battle our enemy aren't something that we need in this war that we're getting our asses kicked at". They're probably just give them more rockets anyways.

 

[Derec]

Ya, but once the fighters have the rockets, I don't think that there's much of a motivation for them to listen to their superiors if they tell them not to use the rockets. They just want to kill Israelis and if they come back for more rockets after the ceasefire, the leadership isn't likely to say "I'm sorry, but you disobeyed orders and we can't use you anymore, so we're going to fire you as an insurgent because trained fighters who have shown a willingness to battle our enemy aren't something that we need in this war that we're getting our asses kicked at". They're probably just give them more rockets anyways.

If that is really the case and Hamas leadership doesn't police their own people then they are just as responsible as if they had ordered the violation in the first place.
I think it's bullshit though. You don't get to become the preeminent terrorist organization in the Territories without iron-fist discipline.
Either way, the Hamas leadership, culminating with Mashaal, is responsible for the dead on both sides.

 

[Bronzeage]

Hamas probably has more control than you give credit. Israel's main complaint is the rockets fired across the border. The rockets are constructed in Gaza. I imagine there are several underground rocket shops, but it is a skilled trade. It's not likely the knowledge and skills are known by front line fighters. There has to be a central control over rocket production and distribution, especially as materials become scarce.

Ya, but once the fighters have the rockets, I don't think that there's much of a motivation for them to listen to their superiors if they tell them not to use the rockets. They just want to kill Israelis and if they come back for more rockets after the ceasefire, the leadership isn't likely to say "I'm sorry, but you disobeyed orders and we can't use you anymore, so we're going to fire you as an insurgent because trained fighters who have shown a willingness to battle our enemy aren't something that we need in this war that we're getting our asses kicked at". They're probably just give them more rockets anyways.

We will find out if Hamas can curb the rocket launchers when they want to curb the rocket launchers. I don't believe we have come to that point, yet.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, but once the fighters have the rockets, I don't think that there's much of a motivation for them to listen to their superiors if they tell them not to use the rockets. They just want to kill Israelis and if they come back for more rockets after the ceasefire, the leadership isn't likely to say "I'm sorry, but you disobeyed orders and we can't use you anymore, so we're going to fire you as an insurgent because trained fighters who have shown a willingness to battle our enemy aren't something that we need in this war that we're getting our asses kicked at". They're probably just give them more rockets anyways.

If that is really the case and Hamas leadership doesn't police their own people then they are just as responsible as if they had ordered the violation in the first place.
I think it's bullshit though. You don't get to become the preeminent terrorist organization in the Territories without iron-fist discipline.
Either way, the Hamas leadership, culminating with Mashaal, is responsible for the dead on both sides.

Agreed, but also the people who killed, by far, most of the people have to share a little bit of the responsibility for all the people who were killed. Maybe 12% of the responsibility or so.

- - - Updated - - -

We will find out if Hamas can curb the rocket launchers when they want to curb the rocket launchers. I don't believe we have come to that point, yet.

Hamas just doesn't strike me as so much of a structured, heirarchical organization with a lot of controls in place as it does a loosely-knit group of guys who kind of want the same sorts of things. They take what they can get and work with what they have.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Looks like Hamas was able to capture an IDF soldier. This is the "victory" that Hamas was looking for, and I expect Hamas to start whining about ceasefire more now, whereas Israel is likely to expand its operation at least temporarily and try to search for the missing soldier.

I think the captive is already locked up in an underground bunker somewhere in Gaza and it's unlikely that he'll be rescued.

Yup. Note the pattern: If Israel behaves in the fashion the left desires they're very prone to getting hurt.

Is it any wonder they aren't very inclined to act the way you want?

 

[fromderinside]

Seems to me these organization Hesbulah, Taliban, Hamas, etc. are pretty good at getting stuff to those who would be soldier or adherents. Such appears to be good evidence of organization and entrepreneurial motive. Every time we see the rise of such organization we see charity and supply as a basic feature of that organization.

Why can't we just supply the suppliers (Hamas) with stuff the people need and subvert them (Hamas) from their chase after 72 virgins.

Its the same thing here yano. If we just fed and clothed people, provided them with a job that could interest them to the extent that they concentrate on other than finding a way to feed their families and friends other than through illegal activities everybody would be like those folks in Hannibal Missouri.

 

[Bronzeage]

If that is really the case and Hamas leadership doesn't police their own people then they are just as responsible as if they had ordered the violation in the first place.
I think it's bullshit though. You don't get to become the preeminent terrorist organization in the Territories without iron-fist discipline.
Either way, the Hamas leadership, culminating with Mashaal, is responsible for the dead on both sides.

Agreed, but also the people who killed, by far, most of the people have to share a little bit of the responsibility for all the people who were killed. Maybe 12% of the responsibility or so.

- - - Updated - - -

We will find out if Hamas can curb the rocket launchers when they want to curb the rocket launchers. I don't believe we have come to that point, yet.

Hamas just doesn't strike me as so much of a structured, heirarchical organization with a lot of controls in place as it does a loosely-knit group of guys who kind of want the same sorts of things. They take what they can get and work with what they have.

Maybe so, but Hamas has run circles around the very experienced Fatah and pushed them out of Gaza.

 

[Togo]

Its the same thing here yano. If we just fed and clothed people, provided them with a job that could interest them to the extent that they concentrate on other than finding a way to feed their families and friends other than through illegal activities everybody would be like those folks in Hannibal Missouri.

But the next step after getting food and clothing and living without being bombed is to start to demand freedom of movement, the ability to visit their own land, and ultimately, challenges to the settlement program. And the settlement program is holy work.

 

[untermensche]

Maybe so, but Hamas has run circles around the very experienced Fatah and pushed them out of Gaza.

Prior to this most recent invasion of Gaza, Hamas and Fatah had agreed to a unity government and were working towards reconciliation.

This of course is one of the reasons Israel invaded.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Seems to me these organization Hesbulah, Taliban, Hamas, etc. are pretty good at getting stuff to those who would be soldier or adherents. Such appears to be good evidence of organization and entrepreneurial motive. Every time we see the rise of such organization we see charity and supply as a basic feature of that organization.

Why can't we just supply the suppliers (Hamas) with stuff the people need and subvert them (Hamas) from their chase after 72 virgins.

Its the same thing here yano. If we just fed and clothed people, provided them with a job that could interest them to the extent that they concentrate on other than finding a way to feed their families and friends other than through illegal activities everybody would be like those folks in Hannibal Missouri.

They use that stuff to get compliance of the people. Accepting Hamas (or Hezbollah) aid comes with major strings attached. Strings that might very well get you killed.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe so, but Hamas has run circles around the very experienced Fatah and pushed them out of Gaza.

Prior to this most recent invasion of Gaza, Hamas and Fatah had agreed to a unity government and were working towards reconciliation.

This of course is one of the reasons Israel invaded.

No. Israel invaded for the same reason it's done every invasion: to stop the rockets.

 

[untermensche]

No. Israel invaded for the same reason it's done every invasion: to stop the rockets.

This isn't going to stop the rockets. It's just going to make Hamas fire more on another day.

This is no solution. It is blind brutality.

Israel doesn't want a solution. It doesn't want a unity government in Gaza.

It wants to steal more land. And if that means killing hundreds of Palestinian children now and then, so be it.

 

[fromderinside]

Its the same thing here yano. If we just fed and clothed people, provided them with a job that could interest them to the extent that they concentrate on other than finding a way to feed their families and friends other than through illegal activities everybody would be like those folks in Hannibal Missouri.

But the next step after getting food and clothing and living without being bombed is to start to demand freedom of movement, the ability to visit their own land, and ultimately, challenges to the settlement program. And the settlement program is holy work.

Who said anything about not getting bombed. Being a martyr is part of the virgins bargain. I presume those in need of basics are also those most likely to desire 72 virgins. No problem convincing them if you keep their supplies just enough to keep them from looking elsewhere. These people will 'believe' anything one asks them to believe just to get another food/drug fix. Face it 72 virgins and immortality are pretty heady stuff for the one already conditioned to be convinced. Don't sweat any eruptions of a rights movement these people are taking what is given and doing what is asked with complete 'belief'.

As I pointed out, if we become the suppliers of the suppliers we need only tamp down those who actually have enough to bring the virgin seeking to a peace on earth and good will result. Just a little bit more and a little bit more toxic.