Charlottesville: video evidence that the alt-right attacked first

[whichphilosophy]

You are under the false impression that Antifa is some monolithic movement with complete agreement on all issues.

You are under the false impression that because no group is monolithic that therefore there isn't general agreement among the majority of members in any group.

ANTIFA is a loose connection of various militant ultra-leftwing groups containing anarchists, communists, revolutionary syndicalism and other fanatics of the ilk. It has history of violence and is the opposite of the far right but often including anything that it conceives as right wing.

ANTIFA does characteristically organize violent demonstration and is the flip-side of the KKKI, Nazis and others of the same flock.

 

[skepticalbip]

You are under the false impression that because no group is monolithic that therefore there isn't general agreement among the majority of members in any group.

ANTIFA is a loose connection of various militant ultra-leftwing groups containing anarchists, communists, revolutionary syndicalism and other fanatics of the ilk. It has history of violence and is the opposite of the far right but often including anything that it conceives as right wing.

ANTIFA does characteristically organize violent demonstration and is the flip-side of the KKKI, Nazis and others of the same flock.

On the really scary side, the media seem to accept that they are actually opposed to fascism while antifa, in fact, uses fascist tactics of intimidating and silencing anyone who disagrees with them rather than debating them.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

You are under the false impression that because no group is monolithic that therefore there isn't general agreement among the majority of members in any group.

I am not.

Yes you are.

But you have not produced one iota of independent evidence that the majority of antifas agree with your characterization.

I'd refer you to interviews with antifa members, but they surely don't represent antifa.

BTW, I forget, are a majority of libertarians anti-abortion or not?

The majority (by about 2/3) are pro-choice.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Stalinists are the flip side of Nazis. Antifa are not Stalinists, because they are just violently opposed to Nazis.

 

[skepticalbip]

Stalinists are the flip side of Nazis. Antifa are not Stalinists, because they are just violently opposed to Nazis.

No. Evidence from their actions is that they only oppose the word nazi, or anyone adopting the name, or anyone they arbitrarily assign the name to. They, themselves, actually do a damned good job of emulating the 1930s Brownshirts. They just need brown uniforms - their core of black uniformed ninja storm troopers aren't as innocent looking.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Stalinists are the flip side of Nazis. Antifa are not Stalinists, because they are just violently opposed to Nazis.

No. Evidence from their actions is that they only oppose the word nazi, or anyone adopting the name, or anyone they arbitrarily assign the name to. They, themselves, actually do a damned good job of emulating the 1930s Brownshirts. They just need brown uniforms - their core of black uniformed ninja storm troopers aren't as innocent looking.

Theory

The "flip side" of Nazis would be authoritarian and leftist and genocidal. Antifa might be leftist or maybe neutral, let's put that aside and say they are leftist for argument's sake. Antifa is not genocidal. Is Antifa authoritarian? No, they are by-and-large anarchists.

What would we expected in theory from the opposite of Nazis: we'd expect genocidal, leftist, and authoritarian such as Stalinists killing the Jews in a pogrom or whatever it's called.

Evidence

No, that is not the evidence at all. We haven't even been hearing about these guys until recently with the rise of the alt-right, which it turns out has been a way for white nationalists to grow their message. Additionally, someone posted a link to the Pastor and others saying these guys were defending people, not starting it.

Conclusion

So you are wrong on both theory and data.

Just because an organization condones violence does not make them Nazis. Corollary: Just because an organization condones violence it does not make them the flip side of Nazis.

 

[laughing dog]

I am not.

Yes you are.

Nah. Given your long history of confusing your beliefs with fact, I was asking for evidence. And, as usual, you fail to provide any.

I'd refer you to interviews with antifa members, but they surely don't represent antifa.

Depends. If it is a wide enough random sample, then yes. Or if these are interviews with the leadership of an antifa group, then yes. But, as usual, you produce stupid and lame evasions instead of supporting evidence.

The majority (by about 2/3) are pro-choice.

Please provide a link to the independent evidence.

 

[skepticalbip]

No. Evidence from their actions is that they only oppose the word nazi, or anyone adopting the name, or anyone they arbitrarily assign the name to. They, themselves, actually do a damned good job of emulating the 1930s Brownshirts. They just need brown uniforms - their core of black uniformed ninja storm troopers aren't as innocent looking.

Theory

The "flip side" of Nazis would be authoritarian and leftist and genocidal. Antifa might be leftist or maybe neutral, let's put that aside and say they are leftist for argument's sake. Antifa is not genocidal. Is Antifa authoritarian? No, they are by-and-large anarchists.

What would we expected in theory from the opposite of Nazis: we'd expect genocidal, leftist, and authoritarian such as Stalinists killing the Jews in a pogrom or whatever it's called.

Evidence

No, that is not the evidence at all. We haven't even been hearing about these guys until recently with the rise of the alt-right, which it turns out has been a way for white nationalists to grow their message. Additionally, someone posted a link to the Pastor and others saying these guys were defending people, not starting it.

Conclusion

So you are wrong on both theory and data.

Just because an organization condones violence does not make them Nazis. Corollary: Just because an organization condones violence it does not make them the flip side of Nazis.

It isn't a "recent" movement. The first I noted this particular incarnation was back in 2007 with the violence in Portland though the groups they sprung from go as far back to at least the 1960s. Since Portland there have been quite a few antifa violent "demonstrations". A few examples was the conflicts during the 2016 campaign where they conducted what they called “righteous beatings” outside Trump rallies; destroying property and throwing rocks and fire bombs at police at Berkeley: fires, physical confrontations and property destruction in DC; etc.

The reason I see them as reborn brownshirts is that their actions are politically biased against Republicans but never Democrats who are just as, if not more, "oppressive". The brownshirts of the 1930s were in support of Germany's left wing political party at the time, the National Socialist Workers party.

 

[J842P]

Theory

The "flip side" of Nazis would be authoritarian and leftist and genocidal. Antifa might be leftist or maybe neutral, let's put that aside and say they are leftist for argument's sake. Antifa is not genocidal. Is Antifa authoritarian? No, they are by-and-large anarchists.

What would we expected in theory from the opposite of Nazis: we'd expect genocidal, leftist, and authoritarian such as Stalinists killing the Jews in a pogrom or whatever it's called.

Evidence

No, that is not the evidence at all. We haven't even been hearing about these guys until recently with the rise of the alt-right, which it turns out has been a way for white nationalists to grow their message. Additionally, someone posted a link to the Pastor and others saying these guys were defending people, not starting it.

Conclusion

So you are wrong on both theory and data.

Just because an organization condones violence does not make them Nazis. Corollary: Just because an organization condones violence it does not make them the flip side of Nazis.

It isn't a "recent" movement. The first I noted this particular incarnation was back in 2007 with the violence in Portland though the groups they sprung from go as far back to at least the 1960s. Since Portland there have been quite a few antifa violent "demonstrations". A few examples was the conflicts during the 2016 campaign where they conducted what they called “righteous beatings” outside Trump rallies; destroying property and throwing rocks and fire bombs at police at Berkeley: fires, physical confrontations and property destruction in DC; etc.

The reason I see them as reborn brownshirts is that their actions are politically biased against Republicans but never Democrats who are just as, if not more, "oppressive". The brownshirts of the 1930s were in support of Germany's left wing political party at the time, the National Socialist Workers party.

The natural comparison would not be to the Brownshirts, but to their anarcho-communist opponents.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It isn't a "recent" movement.

It is for the United States. Various groups calling themselves "Antifa" have existed in Europe for decades, but the first known activities of anyone using that name in the United States were Berkley Riots back in April. They appear to exist here purely as a reaction to Donald Trump's presidency and, probably to a greater extent, his inclusion of Steve Bannon and other accused white supremacists in his administration.

The American chapter of Antifa -- if you can even call it that -- is almost entirely a leftist reaction to the increasing boldness of ultra-right nationalism. This shouldn't really be surprising, considering the Tea Party was originally a rightist reaction to Barrack Obama's election and then completely ceased to be relevant as soon as Trump announced his candidacy.

I suspect that if Donald Trump resigned tomorrow morning, Antifa would basically vanish into thin air.

The reason I see them as reborn brownshirts is that their actions are politically biased against Republicans but never Democrats who are just as, if not more, "oppressive"

:laughing-smiley-014 Seriously?

It's a Republican talking point to claim "political correctness is the REAL oppression" while complaining like a bunch of whiny little bitches about all the things they can't say in public anymore without some smartass college kid flaming them on social media. We are, of course, supposed to pretend political correctness is logically equivalent to the ETHNIC CLEANSING campaign that the white nationalists are planning to implement if they ever get control of the government.

Seriously: a group of people who browbeat you on twitter for using the wrong gender pronoun vs. a group of people who want to forcibly expel you from the country... which fucking side am I supposed to pick?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

LD,

In the middle of a discussion about Antifa and the Alt-Right, you suddenly develop a weird fixation on the Libertarian Party position on abortion.

Why? And why this thread? Why not in a thread that is actually relevant?

Tell you what, if you can find a way to successfully tie it to the topic, it will become worth addressing.

 

[ksen]

I like the new conservative talking point that neo-nazis are really leftists.

Good one guys!

 

[Bomb#20]

Stalinists are the flip side of Nazis. Antifa are not Stalinists, because they are just violently opposed to Nazis.

No. Evidence from their actions is that they only oppose the word nazi, or anyone adopting the name, or anyone they arbitrarily assign the name to. They, themselves, actually do a damned good job of emulating the 1930s Brownshirts. They just need brown uniforms - their core of black uniformed ninja storm troopers aren't as innocent looking.

Hey, keep in mind that the 1930s Brownshirts themselves were nothing but a cheap knockoff of the original: Mussolini's Blackshirts.

 

[untermensche]

One way to defeat Nazi's is with Nazi tactics.

Shout people down and push them around.

One only becomes a Nazi in the US to piss people off.

If people didn't get offended these big bad Nazi's would just sit around in their phony uniforms and sulk.

 

[Bomb#20]

No. Evidence from their actions is that they only oppose the word nazi, or anyone adopting the name, or anyone they arbitrarily assign the name to. They, themselves, actually do a damned good job of emulating the 1930s Brownshirts. They just need brown uniforms - their core of black uniformed ninja storm troopers aren't as innocent looking.

Theory

The "flip side" of Nazis would be authoritarian and leftist and genocidal. Antifa might be leftist or maybe neutral, let's put that aside and say they are leftist for argument's sake. Antifa is not genocidal. Is Antifa authoritarian? No, they are by-and-large anarchists.

What would we expected in theory from the opposite of Nazis: we'd expect genocidal, leftist, and authoritarian such as Stalinists killing the Jews in a pogrom or whatever it's called.

Evidence

No, that is not the evidence at all. We haven't even been hearing about these guys until recently with the rise of the alt-right, which it turns out has been a way for white nationalists to grow their message. Additionally, someone posted a link to the Pastor and others saying these guys were defending people, not starting it.

Conclusion

So you are wrong on both theory and data.

Just because an organization condones violence does not make them Nazis. Corollary: Just because an organization condones violence it does not make them the flip side of Nazis.

So they're not as bad as Nazis. How high you set the bar. Like the man said, on the really scary side, the media seem to accept that they are actually opposed to fascism while antifa, in fact, uses fascist tactics of intimidating and silencing anyone who disagrees with them rather than debating them. They're merely the flip side of fascists: authoritarian and leftist and non-genocidal, the way the Fascist party was authoritarian and rightist and non-genocidal. Sure, they won't have an ethnic-cleansing campaign, just a "capitalists, conservatives, libertarians, "classical liberals" or supporters of the US constitution"-cleansing campaign. The popular notion that anarchists can't be authoritarian ignores the history of anarchist movements actually getting into power. Turns out their commitment to the "an-arch" part of anarchism is a mile wide and a millimeter deep. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Man stabbed after haircut gets him mistaken for a neo-Nazi

 

[ksen]

boo-fucking-hoo to people being mean to nazi snowflakes

 

[skepticalbip]

boo-fucking-hoo to people being mean to nazi snowflakes

U.C. Berkeley, the citizens of Portland, etc., etc. are nazis????

 

[DrZoidberg]

boo-fucking-hoo to people being mean to nazi snowflakes

U.C. Berkeley, the citizens of Portland, etc., etc. are nazis????

I thought everybody who doesn't agree with me is a Nazi?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

U.C. Berkeley, the citizens of Portland, etc., etc. are nazis????

I thought everybody who doesn't agree with me is a Nazi?

Exactly.

 

[laughing dog]

LD,

In the middle of a discussion about Antifa and the Alt-Right, you suddenly develop a weird fixation on the Libertarian Party position on abortion.

Why? And why this thread? Why not in a thread that is actually relevant?

Tell you what, if you can find a way to successfully tie it to the topic, it will become worth addressing.

As usual, you address a minor point in order to evade providing actual evidence to support your claim of fact about what the members of antifa believe. Just for a change, how about you actually substantiate a claim of fact? Even after more than a day, you still have not even linked to the alleged interviews of alleged antifa members who are allegedly substantiating your claims about their beliefs.