Cheating in sports - Specifically the Trour de France

[fast]

This is the thing, in the Tour I'd say the unwritten rules matter much more than the written rules. No one seems to have ever given a fuck about doping, but if there is a pause pipi you better damn well stop.

View attachment 2009

Let me get this straight. If others stop to pee, then it's taboo to pass those that stopped to pee? Even if others would think of nothing else other than stoning those that would pass a fellow pisser (Gee, I hope I have this straight), then as socially unacceptable as this might be, I'd call it something, but I don't think cheating is the word I'd use. Use something worse, if ya like, but it just doesn't come across as correct. Any women peeing out there, lol?

 

[NobleSavage]

This is the thing, in the Tour I'd say the unwritten rules matter much more than the written rules. No one seems to have ever given a fuck about doping, but if there is a pause pipi you better damn well stop.

View attachment 2009

Let me get this straight. If others stop to pee, then it's taboo to pass those that stopped to pee? Even if others would think of nothing else other than stoning those that would pass a fellow pisser (Gee, I hope I have this straight), then as socially unacceptable as this might be, I'd call it something, but I don't think cheating is the word I'd use. Use something worse, if ya like, but it just doesn't come across as correct. Any women peeing out there, lol?

Yep, the women do it a lot more, but not in the Tour as it's all men. The guys normally just do it while riding. There are manny of these little unwritten rules: If two riders break away from the peloton and one of them will get the Yellow Jersey (for lowest cumulative time) he lets the other guy win the stage.

That video of a rider holding on to a team car while his bike was getting fixed -- that could have all been a ruse to get a 5-10min break.

 

[Togo]

It's worth remembering that the most advantageous position is at the back of the pack in front. You don't want to be in front in you can help it, because the other riders increase the air turbulance ahead of you and reduce your drag. So if the guy ahead of you stops, stopping yourself isn't that unreasonable.

 

[NobleSavage]

It's worth remembering that the most advantageous position is at the back of the pack in front. You don't want to be in front in you can help it, because the other riders increase the air turbulance ahead of you and reduce your drag. So if the guy ahead of you stops, stopping yourself isn't that unreasonable.

Yeah, that's why it's a team sport which resembles a chess match. An organized pace line will will beat the peloton (the pack). The Peloton will beat an individual rider. The team captain counts on all his teammates to do the dirty work of drafting, chasing down break aways, getting food and water, and general protection...you never now when someone might decide to put you into the pavement. Bike racing has been described as a knife fight. With 200 guys in the Peloton it can get really nasty.

 

[fast]

It's worth remembering that the most advantageous position is at the back of the pack in front. You don't want to be in front in you can help it, because the other riders increase the air turbulance ahead of you and reduce your drag. So if the guy ahead of you stops, stopping yourself isn't that unreasonable.

Yeah, that's why it's a team sport which resembles a chess match. An organized pace line will will beat the peloton (the pack). The Peloton will beat an individual rider. The team captain counts on all his teammates to do the dirty work of drafting, chasing down break aways, getting food and water, and general protection...you never now when someone might decide to put you into the pavement. Bike racing has been described as a knife fight. With 200 guys in the Peloton it can get really nasty.

Resembles a chess match?

 

[Bronzeage]

I'm unsure of whether or not an act that is seemingly wrong is therefore rightfully cheating when there is no rule against the act.

The NASCAR rule book is an encyclopedia of reactions to things which weren't against the rules because no one ever thought about them. There has always been a limit on the size of the fuel tank and every car had to have the same tank. One race team installed a 1 inch diameter fuel line on their car and snaked it in and around the frame until it was 3 times longer than actually needed. This gave them a fuel reserve of nearly and extra gallon. It's the kind of thing you get away with only once.

 

[Bronzeage]

This is the thing, in the Tour I'd say the unwritten rules matter much more than the written rules. No one seems to have ever given a fuck about doping, but if there is a pause pipi you better damn well stop.

View attachment 2009

Let me get this straight. If others stop to pee, then it's taboo to pass those that stopped to pee? Even if others would think of nothing else other than stoning those that would pass a fellow pisser (Gee, I hope I have this straight), then as socially unacceptable as this might be, I'd call it something, but I don't think cheating is the word I'd use. Use something worse, if ya like, but it just doesn't come across as correct. Any women peeing out there, lol?

And you better pull off onto the grass. None of those bikes have fenders.

 

[fast]

I'm unsure of whether or not an act that is seemingly wrong is therefore rightfully cheating when there is no rule against the act.

The NASCAR rule book is an encyclopedia of reactions to things which weren't against the rules because no one ever thought about them. There has always been a limit on the size of the fuel tank and every car had to have the same tank. One race team installed a 1 inch diameter fuel line on their car and snaked it in and around the frame until it was 3 times longer than actually needed. This gave them a fuel reserve of nearly and extra gallon. It's the kind of thing you get away with only once.

Ingenuity, I love it! And fair too, for everyone had the same opportunity to think!

 

[barbos]

This is the thing, in the Tour I'd say the unwritten rules matter much more than the written rules. No one seems to have ever given a fuck about doping, but if there is a pause pipi you better damn well stop.

View attachment 2009

That answered a question I have had for a long time.

 

[NobleSavage]

Yeah, that's why it's a team sport which resembles a chess match. An organized pace line will will beat the peloton (the pack). The Peloton will beat an individual rider. The team captain counts on all his teammates to do the dirty work of drafting, chasing down break aways, getting food and water, and general protection...you never now when someone might decide to put you into the pavement. Bike racing has been described as a knife fight. With 200 guys in the Peloton it can get really nasty.

Resembles a chess match?

Yeah. Say you are in the peloton and your guy is wearing the Yellow Jersey (maillot jaune). Then there is a break away, say, 5 guys make a jump and then start working a perfect pace line. Do you have two of your domestiques get to the front of the peloton and try and chase down the break away? Well, it depends. Who is in the break away? Keep in mind the riders have radios and talk with the team captain and coach. First thing you need to know: is one of the riders in the break away capable of taking away the Yellow Jersey based on cumulative time? Is one of the guys in the break away someone on your team that could win the stage? Winning one stage of the Tour is a big deal. However, you can lose every stage and still win the race based on overall time. What if there is another team who hates someone in the break away and they are willing to work with your team to chase them down? And on and on....

One of the unique unwritten rules is that if two riders are in competition for winning the stage and one will get the Yellow Jersey, he lets the other guy win the stage.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the thing, in the Tour I'd say the unwritten rules matter much more than the written rules. No one seems to have ever given a fuck about doping, but if there is a pause pipi you better damn well stop.

View attachment 2009

That answered a question I have had for a long time.

That's more of an exception. Most of the time they roll up their shorts and hang their dick out and piss.

 

[fast]

Oh okay, gotcha. You're saying it's strategic. One of the things I like about chess is that winning is not effected by team-player deficiencies.

 

[barbos]

Resembles a chess match?

Yeah. Say you are in the peloton and your guy is wearing the Yellow Jersey (maillot jaune). Then there is a break away, say, 5 guys make a jump and then start working a perfect pace line. Do you have two of your domestiques get to the front of the peloton and try and chase down the break away? Well, it depends. Who is in the break away? Keep in mind the riders have radios and talk with the team captain and coach. First thing you need to know: is one of the riders in the break away capable of taking away the Yellow Jersey based on cumulative time? Is one of the guys in the break away someone on your team that could win the stage? Winning one stage of the Tour is a big deal. However, you can lose every stage and still win the race based on overall time. What if there is another team who hates someone in the break away and they are willing to work with your team to chase them down? And on and on....

One of the unique unwritten rules is that if two riders are in competition for winning the stage and one will get the Yellow Jersey, he lets the other guy win the stage.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the thing, in the Tour I'd say the unwritten rules matter much more than the written rules. No one seems to have ever given a fuck about doping, but if there is a pause pipi you better damn well stop.

View attachment 2009

That answered a question I have had for a long time.

That's more of an exception. Most of the time they roll up their shorts and hang their dick out and piss.

what about a guy who is behind?

 

[bilby]

Yeah. Say you are in the peloton and your guy is wearing the Yellow Jersey (maillot jaune). Then there is a break away, say, 5 guys make a jump and then start working a perfect pace line. Do you have two of your domestiques get to the front of the peloton and try and chase down the break away? Well, it depends. Who is in the break away? Keep in mind the riders have radios and talk with the team captain and coach. First thing you need to know: is one of the riders in the break away capable of taking away the Yellow Jersey based on cumulative time? Is one of the guys in the break away someone on your team that could win the stage? Winning one stage of the Tour is a big deal. However, you can lose every stage and still win the race based on overall time. What if there is another team who hates someone in the break away and they are willing to work with your team to chase them down? And on and on....

One of the unique unwritten rules is that if two riders are in competition for winning the stage and one will get the Yellow Jersey, he lets the other guy win the stage.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the thing, in the Tour I'd say the unwritten rules matter much more than the written rules. No one seems to have ever given a fuck about doping, but if there is a pause pipi you better damn well stop.

View attachment 2009

That answered a question I have had for a long time.

That's more of an exception. Most of the time they roll up their shorts and hang their dick out and piss.

what about a guy who is behind?

He gets a free evaporative cooling boost.

 

[NobleSavage]

You are supposed to pull over a little so as to not splash the other riders.

 

[fast]

That's called indecent exposure here in the states.

 

[barbos]

You are supposed to pull over a little so as to not splash the other riders.

Obvious follow up question: what about female cyclists?

 

[ronburgundy]

I am with the OP in the sense that doping is is way overblown, I don't much care about it, it isn't real cheating, and it does not destroy the integrity of the sports.
Games and sports are defined by the rules of play, meaning what actions a person needs to take to score points, complete the course, etc.. Cheating actions that violate the rules that define the sport itself are what matter and what undermine the whole point of the game/sport. Such cheating is unethical and should be reviled.

However, doping is not altering or undermining the defining rules of the competition. The doped person is still completing all the same actions in the same way during the competition. They have merely altered themselves, not the sport. Altering yourself is what it means to train. The impact of training, speed of recovery, etc. are all functions of highly variable bio-chemical differences between persons. Whether those differences are genetic or in the form of drugs taken is meaningless with regard to the sport. If anything, dope is more available to all competitors, so it levels the playing field in terms of chance genetic factors that determine outcomes but are not part of hard work, training, learned skills, etc., which are the things we are really applauding and congratulating competitors for and that make them admirable.

OTOH, the reason for making dope against the rules is the danger it poses to competitors themselves. IOW, not because it undermines the nature of the sport but because it makes it more dangerous. Thus, it is analogous to the new rule against a baseball catcher blocking home plate. Those who still do it are not cheating, evil villains ruining the sport. The sport itself would be fine if it was allowed. But they are breaking a safety rule, so they still need to be punished withing that competition to reduce future occurrences (that shouldn't include elimination from the hall of fame or being treated like a criminal).

 

[NobleSavage]

OTOH, the reason for making dope against the rules is the danger it poses to competitors themselves. IOW, not because it undermines the nature of the sport but because it makes it more dangerous. Thus, it is analogous to the new rule against a baseball catcher blocking home plate. Those who still do it are not cheating, evil villains ruining the sport. The sport itself would be fine if it was allowed. But they are breaking a safety rule, so they still need to be punished withing that competition to reduce future occurrences (that shouldn't include elimination from the hall of fame or being treated like a criminal).

Agreed, but if they are willing to take the risk I think we could use the worlds top doped athletes as great science experiments. In stead of hiding it, publish it.

 

[NobleSavage]

Obvious follow up question: what about female cyclists?

They are much more cooperative and willing to take group bathroom breaks.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

I don't know anything about the Tour de France, but in terms of cheating in sports (and in general) I'd adhere to the following (which I've posted before):

1) Does this action deceive anyone, or allow anyone to be deceived?
2) Does this action gain allow the gain of privilege or advantage to which I or someone else might not otherwise be entitled?
3) Would I be unsatisfied with the outcome if I were on the receiving end of this action?

If I could answer no to all of these then I don't consider the action 'cheating'. Any yes answer probably means the action is less than honorable.

This formulation also neatly deals with the 'unwritten' vs 'written but unfollowed' rules. If everyone is doing something, and everyone knows everyone does it, then there is no advantage to be gained by also doing it. It probably isn't cheating.

I would be careful about PED use in cycling, though. You may not be deceiving other cyclists, but you are probably deceiving a broad fan base who is under the impression that the sport is clean. And you are certainly deceiving the USADA by deliberately subverting their attempts to keep the sport clean. The 'everybody does it' excuse is a convenient crutch for the convicted.

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