Children and Santa, tooth fairy, etc

[skepticalbip]

I said it is "possible to be honest about sex with kids" not that this "should" be used at any opportunity.

Is there anything wrong with that presentation? I don't think I was traumatized by it when I was six years old. My only objection (which I still have today) is that the artwork is rather ugly (and VERY 1970s).

There is nothing wrong with it. It is just that, in my experience, it is well beyond an explanation that would more than satisfy a six year old's curiosity. It would be more suited to satisfying the curiosity of a pubescent adolescent.

 

[excreationist]

....There is nothing wrong with it. It is just that, in my experience, it is well beyond an explanation that would more than satisfy a six year old's curiosity...

I think 6 year old would be curious about what causes a women to become pregnant and how the baby comes out. I think some kids at that age think you can get pregnant from kissing and babies can come out the belly button.

BTW from facebook:

(Bella is 11, Josh is 9)

“ Mum can you have another baby please, I really want a sister”

Me- it’s not as easy as just wanting a baby and it happening honey even when you really really want it to happen.

Bella - can you keep trying and why doesn’t it happen easy.

Josh- Bella it’s because to make a baby you need DNA from Mum and DNA from dad that’s why.

Bella- but how does the DNA from Mum and dad cone together to grow a baby.

Josh- oh Bella how come you don’t know this!!!- you know when Mum and dad kiss ,well that’s how the DNA mixes and if it finds an egg in Mum it will grow a baby. That’s how you get a baby Bella - it’s a bit of a complicated process you know.

Bella- ewww that’s disgusting - you mean their spit mixes together?

Josh- yes silly of course it does

( and my heart was just melting at how innocent they both are)

It would be more suited to satisfying the curiosity of a pubescent adolescent.

They'd be wondering about oral sex, masturbation, etc, and probably know how a baby is born.

 

[bilby]

I said it is "possible to be honest about sex with kids" not that this "should" be used at any opportunity.

Is there anything wrong with that presentation? I don't think I was traumatized by it when I was six years old. My only objection (which I still have today) is that the artwork is rather ugly (and VERY 1970s).

It seemed skepticalbip might have a problem with it. BTW I think the ugliness is good - if it was realistic it would be kind of pornographic.

Well given that the only problem with pornography that I am aware of lies in its unrealistic nature, that seems like a very strange objection.

Kids can't effectively learn about sex from porn, because it depicts highly unrealistic relationships, and gives them a totally unrealistic set of expectations - for example about how quickly a plumber will arrive at your house after being called.

 

[excreationist]

It seemed skepticalbip might have a problem with it. BTW I think the ugliness is good - if it was realistic it would be kind of pornographic.

Well given that the only problem with pornography that I am aware of lies in its unrealistic nature, that seems like a very strange objection.

So if a school allowed those pictures to be shown, you think they'd see no problem with showing photos of average-looking amateurs as well? Also why does my wife tell me not even look at pictures of topless women? She seems to view it as a form of cheating. I think she'd even have a problem if the photos were of ugly women. Also I'd say that porn exaggerates the elements of sex.
A Christian would say that that isn't the "only" problem - it also leads to lust and lust is adultery. It is hard to have lust for those cartoons.

Kids can't effectively learn about sex from porn, because it depicts highly unrealistic relationships, and gives them a totally unrealistic set of expectations - for example about how quickly a plumber will arrive at your house after being called.

Well they still learn some things about sex from porn anyway.

 

[excreationist]

....Well given that the only problem with pornography that I am aware of lies in its unrealistic nature....

If kids are allowed to see realistic or unrealistic cartoons for sexual education, why is it that normally kids can't freely watch porn? If it is because porn is "unrealistic" then what about porn involving average amateurs that are in a genuine relationship?

 

[DrZoidberg]

....Well given that the only problem with pornography that I am aware of lies in its unrealistic nature....

If kids are allowed to see realistic or unrealistic cartoons for sexual education, why is it that normally kids can't freely watch porn? If it is because porn is "unrealistic" then what about porn involving average amateurs that are in a genuine relationship?

I wouldn't watch porn depicting realistic scenarios. What would the point of that be? I want my porn to be strange, in some way. Art should be heightened reality. Even so called "realistic" art is heightened reality, because they've only chosen a specific subset to show.

 

[excreationist]

....I wouldn't watch porn depicting realistic scenarios. What would the point of that be?

Something to fap to that is somehow less harmful than porn involving unrealistic expectations.

I want my porn to be strange, in some way. Art should be heightened reality. Even so called "realistic" art is heightened reality, because they've only chosen a specific subset to show.

I'm talking about whether videos of sex in realistic scenarios is ok for kids. (I don't think so though)

 

[DrZoidberg]

....I wouldn't watch porn depicting realistic scenarios. What would the point of that be?

Something to fap to that is somehow less harmful than porn involving unrealistic expectations.

Why would that be harmful? I saw Star Wars, I have no expectations about using the force. Why would unrealistic depictions of fictional sex lead to unrealistic expectations? In my own life I think porn has only been a positive. It's made me a better lover, because it's widened my horizon, making me more attentive to the women I have sex with regarding where the sex can go and what can turn her on.

I want my porn to be strange, in some way. Art should be heightened reality. Even so called "realistic" art is heightened reality, because they've only chosen a specific subset to show.

I'm talking about whether videos of sex in realistic scenarios is ok for kids. (I don't think so though)

No, kids should be watching people having sex. Porn nor live. They don't have the necessary psychological machinery by which to process it. I don't think it'll be overly traumatic for them though. But it's good if it's kept away from them as much as possible IMHO.

I'm a product of the 70'ies. My generations parents believed that children should be told about sex in excruciating detail. With pictures. The result is that I can't have sex with women who aren't shaved (and certainly not with a full bush), because otherwise it just brings back these flashbacks of adolescent bouts of panic, which I had no idea wtf I was seeing and I could not make any sense of it. Not any serious damage though. But unnecessary. No child should be exposed to the stuff I was. That just can't be healthy.

 

[bigfield]

....Well given that the only problem with pornography that I am aware of lies in its unrealistic nature....

If kids are allowed to see realistic or unrealistic cartoons for sexual education, why is it that normally kids can't freely watch porn? If it is because porn is "unrealistic" then what about porn involving average amateurs that are in a genuine relationship?

Even amateur porn typically depicts a couple of exhibitionists putting on a show for the camera, which is different than fucking for the sake of it. It's a weird way to be introduced to sex.

 

[excreationist]

Why would that be harmful? I saw Star Wars, I have no expectations about using the force. Why would unrealistic depictions of fictional sex lead to unrealistic expectations?...

bilby said "the only problem with pornography that I am aware of lies in its unrealistic nature" - i.e. it is a "problem". He also said "Kids can't effectively learn about sex from porn, because it depicts highly unrealistic relationships, and gives them a totally unrealistic set of expectations" (I thought he implied that was harmful)

No, kids should be watching people having sex. Porn nor live. They don't have the necessary psychological machinery by which to process it. I don't think it'll be overly traumatic for them though. But it's good if it's kept away from them as much as possible IMHO.

Well bilby said the only problem was it being unrealistic. If it was realistic then surely that would eliminate it's sole "problem". (in his view)

....I'm a product of the 70'ies. My generations parents believed that children should be told about sex in excruciating detail. With pictures. The result is that I can't have sex with women who aren't shaved (and certainly not with a full bush), because otherwise it just brings back these flashbacks of adolescent bouts of panic, which I had no idea wtf I was seeing and I could not make any sense of it. Not any serious damage though. But unnecessary. No child should be exposed to the stuff I was. That just can't be healthy.

So you can only have sex with someone that would look prepubescent (shaved) than someone that reminds you of sexual scenes you saw in your childhood in the 70's (not shaved)? I wonder why you weren't traumatised by breasts as well. That's odd. BTW I am turned off of bushes too but I don't look at them. I'm far more turned off by "outies" (rather than "innies").
That goes against what bilby was saying. bushes (70's) are realistic and the "only" problem is the unrealistic nature.

 

[excreationist]

Even amateur porn typically depicts a couple of exhibitionists putting on a show for the camera, which is different than fucking for the sake of it. It's a weird way to be introduced to sex.

I'm saying video that is as realistic as possible. So either there would be actors that are trying not to put on a show, or ordinary people who aren't aware of the camera or are acting like they're not aware of the camera.

 

[bigfield]

Even amateur porn typically depicts a couple of exhibitionists putting on a show for the camera, which is different than fucking for the sake of it. It's a weird way to be introduced to sex.

I'm saying video that is as realistic as possible. So either there would be actors that are trying not to put on a show, or ordinary people who aren't aware of the camera or are acting like they're not aware of the camera.

Actual porn isn't like that. Which should answer your question why "kids can't freely watch porn".

 

[excreationist]

Even amateur porn typically depicts a couple of exhibitionists putting on a show for the camera, which is different than fucking for the sake of it. It's a weird way to be introduced to sex.

I'm saying video that is as realistic as possible. So either there would be actors that are trying not to put on a show, or ordinary people who aren't aware of the camera or are acting like they're not aware of the camera.

Actual porn isn't like that. Which should answer your question why "kids can't freely watch porn".

Ok then my question would be why can't kids freely watch videos of people having sex as realistic as possible? bilby said the only problem he is aware of with porn was that it is unrealistic - so not unrealistic = no problem?

 

[bigfield]

Actual porn isn't like that. Which should answer your question why "kids can't freely watch porn".

Ok then my question would be why can't kids freely watch videos of people having sex as realistic as possible? bilby said the only problem he is aware of with porn was that it is unrealistic - so not unrealistic = no problem?

That's moving the goalposts. Actual porn isn't realistic.

 

[Keith&Co.]

But it isn't that children don't lie. It is just that they haven't they haven't yet figured out when they may get away with it and when it is obviously a lie.

I was thinking more about when they point to the person in the checkout line and shout, 'She's fat!'
And we try to get them to NOT say that. When they can look and they know good and well that she's fat.
Explaining to them that the truth is not acceptable in that situation is difficult.

A three year old covered in cookie crumbs sitting next to a broken cookie jar when asked, "who broke the cookie jar?" may well answer, "not me.".

That's different. it's not an untruth. The brain at that stage examines the consequences of being the one who broke the cookie jar, and then chooses an alternate view of reality where he was not culpable.

Kind of like Trump, but cute.

Also young kids haven't yet figured out when they really shouldn't say some of the truths that they do. They may well point to a special and distinguished guest in your home that you are trying to impress and ask, "Why are you so fat?"

Exactly. just when they think they have a grasp on the facts of the matter, we confuse them by saying they cannot bring up the facts.

- - - Updated - - -

....Like telling someone, "He's okay, once you get to know him." He's not. The fact is, he's a cunt, but you get used to it.

You could just say "we don't get along very well".

And even that's shading the truth. You make it sound like it's a difference of opinion, when the fact is he doesn't get along AT ALL with ANYONE and if you didn't need his input to do your job, you wouldn't even say 'you get used to it.'

 

[Keith&Co.]

Also parents could say to the kid that they don't want to tell them -

Except part of my job as a parent is teaching them how the world works.
And being there to answer their questions.

If you keep saying 'I don't want to answer that question' they'll stop asking questions. And that's a serious blow to your relationship. And your eventual evaluations as a parent.

So you have to pick a line, somewhere. Something between full disclosure and clamming up.
And sometimes that will include shading the truth. Or lying.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Jesus Christ, what the fuck is wrong with swearing?

It offends me. Maybe it was the way I was raised. It is entertaining sometimes but I find it difficult to swear.

When my kid was born, there were three of us in my office at Guided Missiles School with newborns.
We created a swear jar, 25 cents for every word on the list.
It cleans your language up pretty quickly. Not because of the money, but because of spending every minute knowing five people were paying very close attention to every fucking word coming out of your mouth.

So inside of two months, we were pretty clean, verbally (and we had bought the division dinner at a restaurant).

But we came to find out, we couldn't get any work done. No one paid any attention to our requests. Found that in the Navy, if something wasn't fucking important, it just wasn't important. We had to teach ourselves to swear all over again.

My oldest joined the Navy, too. IN boot camp, someone wrote an anonymous note for the suggestion box, protesting 'all the darned swearing.' His chief asked everyone 'who the fuck thought there shouldn't be swearing in the Navy?'
Turned to my son. "And Co.? Was this you?"
"Chief, no, chief!"
"How can I be sure?"
"Chief, both my parents are retired first class petty officers, chief."
"....Story checks out."

 

[DrZoidberg]

bilby said "the only problem with pornography that I am aware of lies in its unrealistic nature" - i.e. it is a "problem". He also said "Kids can't effectively learn about sex from porn, because it depicts highly unrealistic relationships, and gives them a totally unrealistic set of expectations" (I thought he implied that was harmful)

Well bilby said the only problem was it being unrealistic. If it was realistic then surely that would eliminate it's sole "problem". (in his view)

I think it's bullshit. People who aren't seriously psychologically ill have no problem sorting fact from fiction. I don't think that's a problem at all. The problem arises if parents don't talk with their kids about sex at all, and the only available information is porn. But then again... that's an obsolete problem today. Today all the sensible and good sex ed anybody could possible want is freely available on-line. Forums like this give kids an incredibly powerful tool to reach out anonymously to others in their situation.

This whole thing about sex in film should be realistic just stinks of paternalism and moralism. And it makes no sense. Why would that be desirable in any way? It's not true for any other kind of fiction, so why should it be true for porn?

....I'm a product of the 70'ies. My generations parents believed that children should be told about sex in excruciating detail. With pictures. The result is that I can't have sex with women who aren't shaved (and certainly not with a full bush), because otherwise it just brings back these flashbacks of adolescent bouts of panic, which I had no idea wtf I was seeing and I could not make any sense of it. Not any serious damage though. But unnecessary. No child should be exposed to the stuff I was. That just can't be healthy.

So you can only have sex with someone that would look prepubescent (shaved) than someone that reminds you of sexual scenes you saw in your childhood in the 70's (not shaved)? I wonder why you weren't traumatised by breasts as well. That's odd. BTW I am turned off of bushes too but I don't look at them. I'm far more turned off by "outies" (rather than "innies").
That goes against what bilby was saying. bushes (70's) are realistic and the "only" problem is the unrealistic nature.

I'm a boob guy. And prepubescent women don't have big boobs. So, so much for that theory. I don't think it has anything to do with prepubescents.

It's a good question, on the boobs. Because I saw a lot of floppy and saggy boobs, out of their bras, and I like breasts like that. But I don't think it's unusual either. We develop our sexuality in strange ways. It's rarely a straight line from one thing to another.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Actual porn isn't like that. Which should answer your question why "kids can't freely watch porn".

Ok then my question would be why can't kids freely watch videos of people having sex as realistic as possible? bilby said the only problem he is aware of with porn was that it is unrealistic - so not unrealistic = no problem?

That's moving the goalposts. Actual porn isn't realistic.

Made-For-Middle-School-Porn would be three high school boys telling each other lies about sex. Like, stick a penny in the pussy, and if she has an STD, it'll tarnish. If she's a virgin, it'll come out shiny...

Then cut to the back seat of a late-model car, where one of the boys is telling his girl 'You won't get pregnant if-'

Then two hours of discussion about "How many lies did YOU note?"

Finish with a Navy hygiene video. That one about the sailor who was careful in Guam, Japan, Hawaii, and Australia, then got six kinds of STD in San Diego...

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I think 6 year old would be curious about what causes a women to become pregnant and how the baby comes out. I think some kids at that age think you can get pregnant from kissing and babies can come out the belly button.

I can still remember my brother and I having this conversation. So we went to the basement and my Mom who was washing clothes in one of those old twin Dexter's with the wringer told us that women have a special opening where babies come out. That satisfied us and away we went.