Choosing to wear hijab is an endorsement of the oppression that created the custom

[Loren Pechtel]

I wonder if the Egyptian girls and German girls are thinking this about each other:
View attachment 24389

Well, only one of those women is right about the other's attire. The blonde with the ponytail has her eyes covered but also her breasts and genitals.

And any culture that would allow you to wear something as "skimpy" as what the blonde is wearing would also allow you to wear something much more conservative. Any culture where a burka is the norm is going to be far less tolerant of wearing something skimpy.

Apparently this should not be true in some people’s eyes. Some people wish to ban hijabs or burkas while expressing no qualms about bikinis.

The issue is duress. Many of us feel the burqas are generally not worn by a free choice.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The issue is duress. Many of us feel the burqas are generally not worn by a free choice.

Surely it's both. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't.

 

[ruby sparks]

At a sprawling tent camp in Syria, ISIS women impose a brutal rule

So a bunch of women in niqabs beat and strangled a woman to death just for suggesting she might dispense with her niqab? And a pregnant woman was whipped and murdered by other women after she spoke to a western journalist? Wtf?

 

[ruby sparks]

There is a man in my office building that wears a turban every day. I think I should be allowed to gape at his balding head and find that turban restricts his rights in getting a sunburn on his pate.

The turban seems like quite a good comparison. But for it to be on a par, would we not need a general background where it is associated with being worn under (mostly patriarchal) duress, sometimes very severe duress indeed?

I am not saying there should be a ban on hijabs (though some do, including some islamic feminists), and I also think women, especially in the 'west' (where there is a different context compared to some countries) should be allowed to wear one, and not face discrimination or abuse. But at the same time I think the general background issue is relevant. I believe it would be fair to air the view (and it has been aired, including by some islamic feminists) that merely wearing one adds to the endorsement of a wider underlying oppression of the gender of the wearer, at least somewhat. It is a valid point of view, imo. A valid criticism if you like. Of itself.

One can still recognise that especially in countries where women have more freedoms, some will freely choose to wear it, in which cases it is a lot like the turban, where the decision is (imo) generally contaminated with nothing other than what I am going to call woo (albeit there may also be cultural aspects and traditions woven in with the religious beliefs) if seen without the problematical background issues.

 

[ruby sparks]

Another comparison (in the opposite direction) might be to consider a case where a woman, perhaps a celebrity, acts in a way that encourages sexual objectification of herself. She is free to do it, and no one should stop her, but the point can be made by those with certain concerns that she is perhaps not doing women in general a favour, in a world where women are arguably sexually objectified too often.

It's a limited point, of course. I'm not suggesting it's the only or overriding consideration.

 

[Toni]

- How can you tell if a Muslim woman was not made to wear it. Especially a Muslim woman living in "Little Mogadishu" aka Clarkston, Ga or some other heavily Islamic community where it would become "talk of the town" if Mahnoor didn't don her niqab to go to the DeKalb Industrial Way Kroger?
View attachment 24401

If anything rules are circumvented to give special leeway to people who practice "funny religions". Like allowing a woman to wear her burqa in her driver's license photo completely defeating the purpose of such photos.

Everyone here is for a society that allows women and other people to choose their clothing as they wish--except for those who wish to forbid burqas or hijab because it makes you feel bad to think they maybe are oppressed. Not bad enough not to impose your own tastes and political views upon women you don't know but still, it's the thought that counts, right? Just so long as it's some man or men making the rules.

At my house, it has been a frequently discussed hypothetical of wondering whether someone could get away with a bank robbery by robbing the place with a full beard and longer hair and then, immediately after the get away, becoming clean shaven with short cropped hair.

Pssst: I'm an old lady and I know that there is actually the technology to do retina scans.

3. The Egyptian women were competing for the first time.

Is that why they did not know how to dress?

Seriously, dude: what happened to you that you only value women for how much skin they display? Why is that more important to you than the skills competitors might develop and display?

Bikinis are not that comfortable especially if they ride up your ass cheeks.

If burqinis were really so superior to bikinis, don't you think more teams would wear them? FWIW, I think it's only a matter of time before either Islamic countries and/or #MeToo feminists force IOC to make female beach volleyball players dress more modestly.

Nobody here claimed that burqinis are superior to bikinis. Should all men be forced to wear skinny jeans or low slung jeans because some prefer them?

How do you know that the women wearing bikinis are not now being forced to compete wearing costumes they find uncomfortable?

I am 100% positive that I would make you more comfortable if I wore a burkini than if I work a bikini in public.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Everyone here is for a society that allows women and other people to choose their clothing as they wish--except for those who wish to forbid burqas or hijab because it makes you feel bad to think they maybe are oppressed.

Unless you have suddenly become nudists, no, this isn't true. What do you think the reaction would be if the French Olympic women's volleyball team decided to show up and compete nude?

 

[ruby sparks]

Personally, I like that ad. I can see how it might offend some. Those who freely choose to wear them for instance.

But in all honesty, I have limited sympathy, albeit some. I'm not going to applaud the wearing of such things. As the OP suggests, they come with baggage, imo. Islamic fundamentalist baggage. And Islamic fundamentalism is about as toxically patriarchal as it gets in the world these days. Even those 'western' women freely choosing it will (I assume) be swayed by religion, and specifically religion of that general sort (because it's notable that it's a fairly new thing, in the main, and announced itself, or was announced, probably by men, after decades of liberalisation, and what I would call progress, in middle eastern countries).

Also, the modesty thing. Fine. But there are many ways to dress and appear modestly without that.

Just my personal opinion.

 

[Toni]

Apparently this should not be true in some people’s eyes. Some people wish to ban hijabs or burkas while expressing no qualms about bikinis.

The issue is duress. Many of us feel the burqas are generally not worn by a free choice.

And some of you see nothing wrong with using duress to impose your opinions and political views on women who will suffer the consequences while you get to carry on your smug merry way.

 

[Toni]

Everyone here is for a society that allows women and other people to choose their clothing as they wish--except for those who wish to forbid burqas or hijab because it makes you feel bad to think they maybe are oppressed.

Unless you have suddenly become nudists, no, this isn't true. What do you think the reaction would be if the French Olympic women's volleyball team decided to show up and compete nude?

I’m not at all certain how this is a response to the part of my post you quoted.

 

[Toni]

Personally, I like that ad. I can see how it might offend some. Those who freely choose to wear them for instance.

But in all honesty, I have limited sympathy, albeit some. I'm not going to applaud the wearing of such things. As the OP suggests, they come with baggage, imo. Islamic fundamentalist baggage. And Islamic fundamentalism is about as toxically patriarchal as it gets in the world these days. Even those 'western' women freely choosing it will (I assume) be swayed by religion, and specifically religion of that general sort (because it's notable that it's a fairly new thing, in the main, and announced itself, or was announced, probably by men, after decades of liberalisation, and what I would call progress, in middle eastern countries).

Also, the modesty thing. Fine. But there are many ways to dress and appear modestly without that.

Just my personal opinion.

Why does your opinion trump the choice of women who choose something you don’t approve of?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Everyone here is for a society that allows women and other people to choose their clothing as they wish--except for those who wish to forbid burqas or hijab because it makes you feel bad to think they maybe are oppressed.

Unless you have suddenly become nudists, no, this isn't true. What do you think the reaction would be if the French Olympic women's volleyball team decided to show up and compete nude?

I’m not at all certain how this is a response to the part of my post you quoted.

That you're not for a society that allows women and other people to choose their clothing as they wish. You have limitations on that, just as the Muslims do, they are just different limitations, further along the continuum towards total freedom of choice of what (if anything) to wear, but not all the way to full open choice. Thus far in this thread I'm the only one who takes this all the way to true freedom. Burka is fine with me, as is complete public nudity. It should be the free and uncoerced choice of the individual person, and that choice will vary widely between people who vary in senses of personal modesty etc. If she wants to cover her hair and the contours of her body because she doesn't want people staring at them, that's her prerogative and nobody should be demanding she do otherwise. Same goes for if she wants to walk around nude.

The people who say the muslimas are being oppressed in having to wear burkas, should at least acknowledge that they push the same thing for many of the same reasons, but just to a much smaller extent, upon people in the west if they demand bans on nudity.

 

[Toni]

I’m not at all certain how this is a response to the part of my post you quoted.

That you're not for a society that allows women and other people to choose their clothing as they wish. You have limitations on that, just as the Muslims do, they are just different limitations, further along the continuum towards total freedom of choice of what (if anything) to wear, but not all the way to full open choice. Thus far in this thread I'm the only one who takes this all the way to true freedom.

Much more clear. Thank you.

To be clear: in most circumstances, I believe public health concerns trump individual’s rights to going full on commando in public. Shoes and shirts as well as some coverings for the lower body (pants, skirts,etc.) are also generally mandated in grocery stores and restaurants. Restrictions and regulations are much more stringent for food handlers. Even more restrictive are rules and regulations for anyone who deals with human body fluids including blood and blood products, and patient contact. I’m sure there are other necessary restrictions due to the health and safety of the general public.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

To be clear: in most circumstances, I believe public health concerns trump individual’s rights to going full on commando in public. Shoes and shirts as well as some coverings for the lower body (pants, skirts,etc.) are also generally mandated in grocery stores and restaurants. Restrictions and regulations are much more stringent for food handlers. Even more restrictive are rules and regulations for anyone who deals with human body fluids including blood and blood products, and patient contact. I’m sure there are other necessary restrictions due to the health and safety of the general public.

I do agree with you there. The only restrictions I would have against public nudity is sanitary and safety reasons (including surgical gloves, hard hats, steel toe boots, etc). And the only restrictions I would put on wearing burkas or face coverings is for security reasons. There are some reasonable restrictions on these bases, but I stand against the usual basis of "public decency" or "public obscenity" etc, or other enforced modesty, with is the biggest reason behind both burka requirements in the middle east and against public nudity in the west.

But to clarify with you, Toni. Are you saying you are in agreement with me and aside from sanitary and security issues, which only apply in particular areas, you're fine with both burkas and public nudity? If a man drives a car without mirrored or darkened windows and you can see him nude driving next to you, but contained in his car so there is no sanitary issue for you, then that's not a problem for you? Or would you object to "flashing"?

 

[Toni]

To be clear: in most circumstances, I believe public health concerns trump individual’s rights to going full on commando in public. Shoes and shirts as well as some coverings for the lower body (pants, skirts,etc.) are also generally mandated in grocery stores and restaurants. Restrictions and regulations are much more stringent for food handlers. Even more restrictive are rules and regulations for anyone who deals with human body fluids including blood and blood products, and patient contact. I’m sure there are other necessary restrictions due to the health and safety of the general public.

I do agree with you there. The only restrictions I would have against public nudity is sanitary and safety reasons (including surgical gloves, hard hats, steel toe boots, etc). And the only restrictions I would put on wearing burkas or face coverings is for security reasons. There are some reasonable restrictions on these bases, but I stand against the usual basis of "public decency" or "public obscenity" etc, or other enforced modesty, with is the biggest reason behind both burka requirements in the middle east and against public nudity in the west.

But to clarify with you, Toni. Are you saying you are in agreement with me and aside from sanitary and security issues, which only apply in particular areas, you're fine with both burkas and public nudity? If a man drives a car without mirrored or darkened windows and you can see him nude driving next to you, but contained in his car so there is no sanitary issue for you, then that's not a problem for you? Or would you object to "flashing"?

I think the 'public safety' concerns regarding burqas are mostly imaginary, at least in the western part of the world. The reason I think that this is just something to direct toward Muslims and Muslim women is that there are no similar restrictions on men wearing facial hair, even a great deal of facial hair that does indeed obscure features. People can wear hats, oversized sunglasses or just eye wear, colored contacts, fat suits, all sorts of things to obscure their actual physical appearance. Plus, retina scans are actually available, although I don't think the data base is very big.

I'm more fine with burqas. I have no problem with public nudity in areas designated as nudist friendly. I don't think that people should go unclothed in general in public mostly for healthy/ public safety reasons, but I'll admit that I am counting on a certain level of common sense here on the part of those choosing what to wear. Consider this: even fairly socially liberal parents would likely object to their children from pre-K through college attending classes taught by a naked teacher. I'm not certain that I would want to interview a naked person for a job or go through with an interview myself if the interviewer were nude--outside of those designated nudist areas. Yes, we can all agree that people used to walk around unclothed all the time but then a lot more people died of things like cholera then. And viral illnesses such as the Noro virus--not to mention Hepatitis A really should change anybody's mind about the wisdom of public nudity in public places.

My objections are health/safety not moral or aesthetic.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I think the 'public safety' concerns regarding burqas are mostly imaginary, at least in the western part of the world. The reason I think that this is just something to direct toward Muslims and Muslim women is that there are no similar restrictions on men wearing facial hair, even a great deal of facial hair that does indeed obscure features. People can wear hats, oversized sunglasses or just eye wear, colored contacts, fat suits, all sorts of things to obscure their actual physical appearance. Plus, retina scans are actually available, although I don't think the data base is very big.

I agree with you that in the vast majority of places burkas should be fine. And I further take the position that anywhere she is allowed to wear a burka, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask or bee keeper suit, etc. Anywehre a Sikh can carry a kirpan (ceremonial dagger) I should be allowed to carry a hunting knife. And anywhere I can't, they shouldn't be allowed to either. No special rules for or against people based on claimed identities, religious or otherwise. Likewise, anywhere I as a man can walk topless, a woman should equally be allowed to walk topless. There are of course some security sensitive areas though, such as in banks or airports, or when giving testimony in court, where faces should be visible for security reasons. There is also a valid safety concern against burkas when driving a car, since it restricts peripheral vision. Believe it or not that was actually a personal injury court case in Ontario I once was involved with. The sole issue there should have been visibility and vision, a kin to if she required glasses and was wearing them while driving, instead of a "religious freedom" issue.

I'm more fine with burqas. I have no problem with public nudity in areas designated as nudist friendly. I don't think that people should go unclothed in general in public mostly for healthy/ public safety reasons, but I'll admit that I am counting on a certain level of common sense here on the part of those choosing what to wear. Consider this: even fairly socially liberal parents would likely object to their children from pre-K through college attending classes taught by a naked teacher. I'm not certain that I would want to interview a naked person for a job or go through with an interview myself if the interviewer were nude--outside of those designated nudist areas. Yes, we can all agree that people used to walk around unclothed all the time but then a lot more people died of things like cholera then. And viral illnesses such as the Noro virus--not to mention Hepatitis A really should change anybody's mind about the wisdom of public nudity in public places.

How about if people wear see through clothes that keep sweat and bodily fluids contained but you can see their bodies? How about people living literally in see through houses? How about that guy I mentioned driving a car nude, so being contained from you as far as any contagion goes, but is nude body visible to you? How about nudity on TV without any age or other based censorship? How about flashers?

 

[ruby sparks]

Personally, I like that ad. I can see how it might offend some. Those who freely choose to wear them for instance.

But in all honesty, I have limited sympathy, albeit some. I'm not going to applaud the wearing of such things. As the OP suggests, they come with baggage, imo. Islamic fundamentalist baggage. And Islamic fundamentalism is about as toxically patriarchal as it gets in the world these days. Even those 'western' women freely choosing it will (I assume) be swayed by religion, and specifically religion of that general sort (because it's notable that it's a fairly new thing, in the main, and announced itself, or was announced, probably by men, after decades of liberalisation, and what I would call progress, in middle eastern countries).

Also, the modesty thing. Fine. But there are many ways to dress and appear modestly without that.

Just my personal opinion.

Why does your opinion trump the choice of women who choose something you don’t approve of?

Does it do that? Oh gosh, yes, that's what I said. No, wait.....I didn't say anything even remotely resembling that. In fact, I've said the complete opposite.

Here's a tip for you toni. Wait until somebody actually makes a particular point before you address it.

 

[Derec]

Well, here you go.

Case closed.

 

[Toni]

Why does your opinion trump the choice of women who choose something you don’t approve of?

Does it do that? Oh gosh, yes, that's what I said. No, wait.....I didn't say anything even remotely resembling that. In fact, I've said the complete opposite.

Here's a tip for you toni. Wait until somebody actually makes a particular point before you address it.

Well, no: your opinion is only your opinion and should have exactly zero bearing on clothing choices of women. Period.

Sorry if I was unclear or if you felt I was jumping on a point you hadn't made. It's so hard to tell with some of your posts.

 

[ruby sparks]

Sorry if I was unclear or if you felt I was jumping on a point you hadn't made.

You weren't unclear. You simply jumped on a point I hadn't made.