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Chris Hardwick

A lot hinges on whether it is an equal relationship. Based on age alone, there's a pretty significant age difference between the two. To tell the truth, I had never heard of either of them before this thread... Maybe he was easily recognizable to those who knew either. Maybe they just jumped on board because he was going down so they decided to pile on. No idea.
simply for the purposes of your edification: chris hardwick is fairly well known within "nerd circles" - for years, he has hosted "the talking dead" which is basically a talk show only about the walking dead, which airs immediately after the walking dead.
he's also been the host of a late night meta gameshow called @midnight on comedy central, he was one of the founders of "the nerdist" which is a popular website and chain of podcasts, etc etc.
point is, chris hardwick isn't mainstream cultural zeitgeist famous, but he's definitely in about the "C"-list tier of celebrity in terms of exposure and air time.
chloe dykstra was basically just attractive for a living until she prominently (well, relatively speaking) got into a relationship with chris hardwick, then she wound up in a couple things.

anyways none of this matters to the facts of her story, i'm merely giving an extremely cliff notes version for the purposes of perspective.
the worst you could say about them as a couple is that it was an utterly cliche example of older celebrity with hot younger model and her career may or may not have gotten a boost from her proximity to him and may or may not have taken a hit from their breakup... her body of work is miniscule before she met him, and is miniscule after, so make of that what you will.

Yes, in an ideal world, anyone who is being treated badly in a relationship would simply leave. But real life is much more complicated. And it's worse if one person undermines the confidence of the other one so significantly that the non-dominant person doubts themselves and anything they think or want.
no argument here but, and this was the point of contention at length during my talks over the weekend, is that kind of exploitation really classifiable as *abuse*?
i'll grant taking advantage of someone, i'll grant creepy and ethically unacceptable, i'll grant skeezy behavior which women should collectively shun men for and stop encouraging their behavior by capitulating to it... but abuse? that seems quite a stretch.

it sounds to me like they had the kind of shitty relationship that is endemic to the vast majority of couplings within the context of the human condition, and while i have total sympathy for her having allowed herself to get shat on, and i have contempt for him for being the kind of person who would do that to another human being, i have to confess that i don't see the details as being notable whatsoever.
 
A lot hinges on whether it is an equal relationship. Based on age alone, there's a pretty significant age difference between the two. To tell the truth, I had never heard of either of them before this thread... Maybe he was easily recognizable to those who knew either. Maybe they just jumped on board because he was going down so they decided to pile on. No idea.
simply for the purposes of your edification: chris hardwick is fairly well known within "nerd circles" - for years, he has hosted "the talking dead" which is basically a talk show only about the walking dead, which airs immediately after the walking dead.
he's also been the host of a late night meta gameshow called @midnight on comedy central, he was one of the founders of "the nerdist" which is a popular website and chain of podcasts, etc etc.
point is, chris hardwick isn't mainstream cultural zeitgeist famous, but he's definitely in about the "C"-list tier of celebrity in terms of exposure and air time.
chloe dykstra was basically just attractive for a living until she prominently (well, relatively speaking) got into a relationship with chris hardwick, then she wound up in a couple things.

anyways none of this matters to the facts of her story, i'm merely giving an extremely cliff notes version for the purposes of perspective.
the worst you could say about them as a couple is that it was an utterly cliche example of older celebrity with hot younger model and her career may or may not have gotten a boost from her proximity to him and may or may not have taken a hit from their breakup... her body of work is miniscule before she met him, and is miniscule after, so make of that what you will.

Yes, in an ideal world, anyone who is being treated badly in a relationship would simply leave. But real life is much more complicated. And it's worse if one person undermines the confidence of the other one so significantly that the non-dominant person doubts themselves and anything they think or want.
no argument here but, and this was the point of contention at length during my talks over the weekend, is that kind of exploitation really classifiable as *abuse*?
i'll grant taking advantage of someone, i'll grant creepy and ethically unacceptable, i'll grant skeezy behavior which women should collectively shun men for and stop encouraging their behavior by capitulating to it... but abuse? that seems quite a stretch.

it sounds to me like they had the kind of shitty relationship that is endemic to the vast majority of couplings within the context of the human condition, and while i have total sympathy for her having allowed herself to get shat on, and i have contempt for him for being the kind of person who would do that to another human being, i have to confess that i don't see the details as being notable whatsoever.

It's tricky. I am certain that people engage in behavior that they do not see as abusive at all but feels abusive to the person subjected to the behavior.

If we take her claims as truth, then telling her who she could and could not be friends with is certainly controlling, which can be a form of abuse as well as a prelude to abuse. Insisting that her evenings be reserved for him, insisting that she not consume alcohol because he didn't, not allowing her to speak in public places, insisting she remain in their hotel room while he went out and partied, insisting on sex whenever he wanted, controlling where she went, what work she did: those are all controlling/emotional abusive behaviors. The sex may or may not have been coercive. I absolutely believe that he did not see it as coercive. It sounds very much as though she believed he would leave her if she didn't agree to anything he wanted. Now, for me, I would have been fine with that. But over time, a controlling partner can steadily erode the confidence of someone who cares about them and has come to depend on them for everything, as seems to have happened here.

It's possible that she's not telling the truth. It's possible that his side looks very different than hers, with as much accuracy in reporting. I do kind of wonder if he would have been dumped so quickly if others had not seen some behavior that they found questionable or uncomfortable.
 
And we still only have her side of the story. Again, I think anyone itt could write an incredibly bad story about one of their exes, but would it be in any way exhaustive or even a complete reckoning of the relationship in any objective sense? How could it?

The fact that there has evidently been some corroboration of behavior helps, but one thing keeps leaping out at me about her story. The fact that she had a name for their “abusive” sex (“starfishing,” which evidently is a whole thing). And she freely admitted to having “daddy issues.”

These are not casual issues, either in a relationship, or in life. They are indicative of much, much deeper problems that were there long before the two ever met and would have doomed their relationship no matter what. Basically it boils down to her seeing him as her surrogate father, that she doesn’t want to have sex with, but will put up with him having sex with her, so long as he is her disciplinarian, but only to a point and then she’ll rebel against the authoritarian figure and go fuck someone else. Etc.

It’s a non-stop mind fuck for both parties and probably caused by an abusive relationship with her father, hence she seeks the same in others. So if her partner does not behave like her father, she does things to make them behave like her father and once they do behave like her father, she punishes them for it, etc.

Iow, this isn’t a “he said/she said,” this is a (likely) victim of an abusive family acting out immaturely in a relationship that was toxic from the start, but neither party knew it until it got really dark and disturbing for both.

That doesn’t excuse any of Hardwick’s alleged behavior, of course, but if you’ve ever been in a relationship with someone that has abuse issues—male or female—there is a lot of fucked up shit that comes along with it that neither party knows about, even with years of therapy after any facts.

And that isn’t to say her story is false, either. It could all be 100% true, but still be so deeply complicated that she hasn’t a clue what part she may have played in any of it, but, again, “daddy issues” —and the fact that she knows she has them—would be a big red flag.

But then this is precisely the problem with online/armchair diagnosis based on a single anecdote.
 
And we still only have her side of the story. Again, I think anyone itt could write an incredibly bad story about one of their exes, but would it be in any way exhaustive or even a complete reckoning of the relationship in any objective sense? How could it?

The fact that there has evidently been some corroboration of behavior helps, but one thing keeps leaping out at me about her story. The fact that she had a name for their “abusive” sex (“starfishing,” which evidently is a whole thing). And she freely admitted to having “daddy issues.”

These are not casual issues, either in a relationship, or in life. They are indicative of much, much deeper problems that were there long before the two ever met and would have doomed their relationship no matter what. Basically it boils down to her seeing him as her surrogate father, that she doesn’t want to have sex with, but will put up with him having sex with her, so long as he is her disciplinarian, but only to a point and then she’ll rebel against the authoritarian figure and go fuck someone else. Etc.

It’s a non-stop mind fuck for both parties and probably caused by an abusive relationship with her father, hence she seeks the same in others. So if her partner does not behave like her father, she does things to make them behave like her father and once they do behave like her father, she punishes them for it, etc.

Iow, this isn’t a “he said/she said,” this is a (likely) victim of an abusive family acting out immaturely in a relationship that was toxic from the start, but neither party knew it until it got really dark and disturbing for both.

That doesn’t excuse any of Hardwick’s alleged behavior, of course, but if you’ve ever been in a relationship with someone that has abuse issues—male or female—there is a lot of fucked up shit that comes along with it that neither party knows about, even with years of therapy after any facts.

And that isn’t to say her story is false, either. It could all be 100% true, but still be so deeply complicated that she hasn’t a clue what part she may have played in any of it, but, again, “daddy issues” —and the fact that she knows she has them—would be a big red flag.

But then this is precisely the problem with online/armchair diagnosis based on a single anecdote.

Yeah, I read your link. Surprise surprise: it sounds like starfishing is the woman's fault for being tired and not the man's fault for insisting on sex with someone who isn't into it at that moment:

“Once a woman stops bringing energy and enthusiasm to the bedroom, it can quickly become a baseline rather than a rarity,” explains Anderson. Enthusiasm is very sexy, and your partner won't get much out of sex when you're not showing any.

So, according to Dr. Anderson, a woman's job is not to simply submit but to actively participate even if you are tired and don't feel like it because otherwise it diminishes the enjoyment for the man and basically, you are a cold invertebrate animal for not being in the mood and you should take care of yourself so you won't be too tired to have whatever sex your man wants whenever he wants it. Because
When you starfish, you miss the thrill and satisfaction of arousing your partner, which is such a big part of sex, says Deborah Fox, a certified sex therapist in Washington, DC.

There's zero discussion of how maybe he should do the dishes or learn to give oral or to take not tonight sweetie for an answer.

If a woman dating an older man has ‘daddy issues,’ what causes a man to want to date someone almost a generation younger?
 
I only linked to that piece because I’d never heard the term before. It wasn’t meant as any kind of authoritative or exhaustive treatise; just a definition of the term.

If a woman dating an older man has ‘daddy issues,’

She is the one who said she had “daddy issues” and the reason I pointed it out is because, as I said, it betrays much deeper psychological problems. Again, not an excuse for anyone’s misbehavior, but certainly a factor, depending upon the depth of the issues.

Just as whatever Hardwick’s—or anyone’s—psychological baggage would be a factor in their relationships, particularly if they came from an abusive parent/offspring situation.

what causes a man to want to date someone almost a generation younger?

Immaturity. Same reason a woman wants to date someone almost a generation younger. They don’t want a complicated, mature relationship on equal terms, would be my armchair assessment.
 
I only linked to that piece because I’d never heard the term before. It wasn’t meant as any kind of authoritative or exhaustive treatise; just a definition of the term.

If a woman dating an older man has ‘daddy issues,’

She is the one who said she had “daddy issues” and the reason I pointed it out is because, as I said, it betrays much deeper psychological problems. Again, not an excuse for anyone’s misbehavior, but certainly a factor, depending upon the depth of the issues.

Just as whatever Hardwick’s—or anyone’s—psychological baggage would be a factor in their relationships, particularly if they came from an abusive parent/offspring situation.

what causes a man to want to date someone almost a generation younger?

Immaturity. Same reason a woman wants to date someone almost a generation younger. They don’t want a complicated, mature relationship on equal terms, would be my armchair assessment.

Sorry—don’t mind me. I’m just being pissy.
 
Sorry—don’t mind me. I’m just being pissy.

For good reason. It’s a clustefuck no matter how you slice it and unfortunately there is no “good” method of deconstructing most of the shit that goes down in “normal” relationships, let alone fucked-up ones as this clearly was.

If it weren’t for the fact that he got fired/his career took a dive because of this (presumably), I wouldn’t really get into it. That’s the bigger issue—unfortunately—because we also still have to deal with the presumption of innocence, even in cases like Cosby’s where we all “know” he did it, but it took forever and a day to actually prove it (and may he rot in jail forever).

Or Aziz Ansari, who really just got called out as being bad at sex (that one time and with that one person). Yet his career definitely took a hit. It’s not a full blown Louis C.K. implosion, but it remains to be seen exactly how bad it will be. Or any of the others who have recently been called out for being raging assholes, but maybe not rising to the more heinous level of sexual predator (?)

And, of course, there are the dickhead misogynists that just can’t wait to pile on whenever anyone tries to have a rational, adult discussion about ALL of the issues involved. If only we could just No Country For Old Men those assholes, but, you know, jail.
 
If a woman dating an older man has ‘daddy issues,’ what causes a man to want to date someone almost a generation younger?
very simple: pussy's prime ripeness period is 18 to 29, and pussy doesn't age like wine, it ages like bread.
(note: that is an intentionally caustic and gross simplification of one facet of the dynamic of male/female sexual relations and is meant to be grotesque for the purposes of dramatic effect, it is not a declarative statement of my beliefs regarding the value of women as human beings)

the simple explanation for older men dating younger women is that *they can*, since that is the optimal age range for a woman's capacity to have the physical traits and characteristic most men find sexually appealing.
 
If a woman dating an older man has ‘daddy issues,’ what causes a man to want to date someone almost a generation younger?
very simple: pussy's prime ripeness period is 18 to 29, and pussy doesn't age like wine, it ages like bread.
(note: that is an intentionally caustic and gross simplification of one facet of the dynamic of male/female sexual relations and is meant to be grotesque for the purposes of dramatic effect, it is not a declarative statement of my beliefs regarding the value of women as human beings)

the simple explanation for older men dating younger women is that *they can*, since that is the optimal age range for a woman's capacity to have the physical traits and characteristic most men find sexually appealing.

And the biological reason for that is that they are in their prime years of fertility. And of course, not all men are attracted to younger women, just as not all women are attracted to men older than them. Same goes for men being attracted to women shorter than them and women being attracted to men taller than them, but those are also common trends.

At a base biological level, women invest a lot more in each offspring, by having to give birth (and usually just one baby at a time, whereas men can physically have hundreds at time) etc, but also right down to the fact that women have limited eggs and a timeframe to use them, and men keep producing tons of sperm throughout their lives. So while there are exceptions, men are generally driven to take a more scattershot approach, to mate with as many fertile females as possible, and women are generally (again, with may exceptions) driven to take a more focused approach, and find a stable monogamous mate with plenty of resources to invest in the offspirng. That explains why rich old men can be found dating attractive women half their age, and why those women are interested, and why it is far less common to find rich old women with attractive men half their age (though it does happen). Those young women are in prime fertility. Those rich old men are more stable and less likely to cheat and more able to support and invest in the woman and her offspring. This then gets built into societal expectations that then reinforce it further.
 
If a woman dating an older man has ‘daddy issues,’ what causes a man to want to date someone almost a generation younger?
There's an old Playboy cartoon, two middle-aged men seated at a table in a posh restaurant. They watch an extremely old man totter past their table, held up at the elbow by a curvy young blonde.
One gent turns to the other, "What does that say to me? It says the system works, that's what it says to me."
 
If a woman dating an older man has ‘daddy issues,’ what causes a man to want to date someone almost a generation younger?
There's an old Playboy cartoon, two middle-aged men seated at a table in a posh restaurant. They watch an extremely old man totter past their table, held up at the elbow by a curvy young blonde.
One gent turns to the other, "What does that say to me? It says the system works, that's what it says to me."

See, I always thought it was more like not liking smart women because they’re hip to men’s tricks....

Seriously. I’ve always seen it’s major insecurity about being with someone who is equal.
 
Seriously. I’ve always seen it’s major insecurity about being with someone who is equal.
newp, it's 100% about younger women being hotter, and also in my personal experience which is purely anecdotal and based on a sample size which is far too small for any sort of scientific thesis, younger women are far more enthusiastic and involved in the idea of sex and sexuality both in terms of expressing their own and satisfying their partner.
 
Seriously. I’ve always seen it’s major insecurity about being with someone who is equal.
newp, it's 100% about younger women being hotter, and also in my personal experience which is purely anecdotal and based on a sample size which is far too small for any sort of scientific thesis, younger women are far more enthusiastic and involved in the idea of sex and sexuality both in terms of expressing their own and satisfying their partner.

I’d say they are less experienced and expect far less than older women. In terms of decent technique or decent conversation.
 
XXXTentacion who seems like he was an abusive psycho with also at least a modicum of talent was shot and killed yesterday. Despite severe abuse to his girlfriend he still had a record contract. But different jobs have different focuses and customers, so I don't see this as hypocrisy or a double standard.

Having one standard across the board for all public figures or even all employees does not make sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXXTentacion
 
XXXTentacion who seems like he was an abusive psycho with also at least a modicum of talent was shot and killed yesterday. Despite severe abuse to his girlfriend he still had a record contract. But different jobs have different focuses and customers, so I don't see this as hypocrisy or a double standard.

Having one standard across the board for all public figures or even all employees does not make sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXXTentacion

Hell, Tay-K committed actual murders and that did not hurt his career. Quite the opposite. Rap has no standards.
 
XXXTentacion who seems like he was an abusive psycho with also at least a modicum of talent was shot and killed yesterday. Despite severe abuse to his girlfriend he still had a record contract. But different jobs have different focuses and customers, so I don't see this as hypocrisy or a double standard.

Having one standard across the board for all public figures or even all employees does not make sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXXTentacion

Hell, Tay-K committed actual murders and that did not hurt his career. Quite the opposite. Rap has no standards.

You might feel yourself a big chagrined to realize that you are pretty much in alignment with the #MeToo movement, which has been questioning why the music industry has not had the same kind of revelations/denouncements/loss of contracts as has the film industry.
 
please take note i'm replying for the sake of conversation and exchanging ideas, i'm not trying to downplay what you're saying or deny it - i admit up front this is purely based on my own experience and i'm not trying to make broad statements about women in general.
(or men for that matter, though i suppose by necessity of even engaging in this topic i kind of have to, but my opinions are based on my own experience of being a male and of having talked to other men about such things over the course of my life)

I’d say they are less experienced and expect far less than older women.
eehhh i dunno about that, in that there's one important distinction between what you're suggesting and reality, and also that this statement is predicated on a false assumption about how sex works for men.
to the former: i have never encountered an older woman (re: by 'older' i mean in the mid 30s to late 40s range) who had 'experience' like in a job, where over time they developed skills or mastered techniques that were notable.
in my personal experience with age just comes baggage - the emotional burden of years of dealing with shitheads, the compounded neurosis of a lifetime of emotional damage from friends and family, and a deepening resistance to sexual liberation for the sake of some archaic notion of sexual prudishness that our culture shoves on both women in general and on women as they get older.
as i jokingly said earlier, pussy ages like bread not like wine - the sad fact is that purely in terms of value in the sexual marketplace most women don't get more appealing to most men as they age.
as for expectation, i've never encountered an older women who expected more sexually than a younger woman, i've only encountered older women being pre-disappointed in the idea enterprise due to a lifetime of let-down.

as for the latter: men need a hole, preferably moist, into which we can thrust repeatedly until donkey face.
while surely there are some percentage of men out there who require some sort of cornucopia of kink or perversion or whatever in order to get aroused and get off (and how i pity those poor bastards afflicted with such blighted sexual tendencies), for the majority of men sexual satisfaction comes simply from the biology which women (or other men, far be it from me to be narrow minded) bring to the table.
get hard, shove it somewhere that feels nice, release. the rest is just window dressing provided the first two are accommodated, which loops back around to the first point that started this sub-chain: as men get older and erections aren't a constant deluge with which we are inundated, it takes more than a stiff breeze to bring us to that place of being 'achingly' aroused, which is a state both joyous (if you have an outlet for it) and nightmarish (if you don't), and thus is the allure of younger hot women - men are highly visual, a younger person possessing the assorted characteristics which combine to be visually stimulating is more appealing to our sexuality than... well, not that.

In terms of decent technique
unfortunately in the grand scheme of things 'technique' stands for substantially less to a man than it does to a woman, for two major reasons:
1. biology counts for infinitely more than skill - the most technically proficient blowjob given by a woman who doesn't have a cute face or soft hands or the right mouth configuration to properly envelop your dick (or etc etc) will be a less compelling sexual partner than a hottie who may lack a thorough understanding of the layout of nerves in the penis, but has a soft mouth and low gag reflex and a lot of enthusiasm.
2. the difference, purely in terms of physical sensation, between a perfectly serviceable blowjob and the most amazing blowjob you've ever had in your life is substantially less for men than is the difference between perfectly serviceable cunnilingus and highly skilled cunnilingus is for women... so in the end, that just isn't something we tend to value particularly highly as a trait in women, at least in terms of it being a valued relationship commodity.

or decent conversation.
at least at the start, for most men with regards to most relationships, that doesn't matter whatsoever.
in terms of conversation, the bar is set at "don't be so annoying that i don't want to actively murder you in between when we're fucking" and anything past that is a surprising bonus but not something we really look for.
you have to remember that when it comes to mate selection criteria, for men it's that we want to fuck you first, and that we actually like you falls somewhere rather distantly down the list.
 
More developments. Its starting to sound like she just made up a bunch of nasty shit out of spite and revenge:

http://www.tmz.com/2018/06/19/chris-hardwick-chloe-dykstra-breakup-cheating-text-messages/

Chris Hardwick severed ties with Chloe Dykstra in a lengthy text chronicling major issues in their relationship, and she pleaded to talk to him afterward to no avail ... even months later.

According to the text messages -- obtained by TMZ -- Chris calls out Chloe for cheating on him with a man named Sam, saying it's "the worst thing anyone has ever done to me." Chris claims Chloe led him to believe she wanted to get back together after they broke up ... but never stopped seeing Sam.

Hardwick more or less tells Dykstra his long text message will be the last time he talks to her and declares their relationship is over, and she then sends several texts begging to talk, saying, "I will always love you."

According to the text thread, Chloe reached out to Chris 7 months later in an apparent attempt to make up. Sources close to Chris say it's hard to believe Chloe would try for months to get back with him if she was being emotionally and sexually abused, as she claimed last week.

As we reported ... Hardwick denied her allegation of sexual abuse and said their breakup after a 3-year relationship was the result of her cheating.
 
XXXTentacion who seems like he was an abusive psycho with also at least a modicum of talent was shot and killed yesterday. Despite severe abuse to his girlfriend he still had a record contract. But different jobs have different focuses and customers, so I don't see this as hypocrisy or a double standard.

Having one standard across the board for all public figures or even all employees does not make sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXXTentacion

For reference, a lot of people consider him (and a few other known abusers in music - R. Kelly and Chris Brown are obvious examples, and then there's what Nas is alleged to have done to his ex-wife, due to which I am avoiding his recent album) to be disgusting and ripe targets for boycotts and public shaming. XXXTenaciaon, as I recall, was more or less abandoned by his crew, who simply had nobody substitute for him in their last few performances, and was widely considered a piece of scum.
 
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