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Chris Hardwick

While I have no idea who the people are that are the subject of this thread, it seems to me that in most any relationship where the partners have a large age discrepancy, there will probably be insecurity in the older partner.
 
And I think the ethical burden of evidence is much higher when one not only exercises their own right of association in response to accusations, but applies legal/social/or economic pressure upon others to act similarly. IOW, its one thing for an actor to decide they don't want to be interviewed by Hardwick. But it is a whole other level for someone to pressure those actors to make that decision or pressure AMC to fire him, which obviously causes Hardwick harm. People applying that pressure are not just protecting themselves but trying to cause Hardwick harm as a form of punishment. Thus, they have a high burden of evidence in order for their pressure to be ethically acceptable.

I appreciate this answer. And I agree with respect to profit. But what about if it isn't about profit but instead something else, like let's say personal history of trauma? Wouldn't it be fair for a person to freely avoid someone else without making the avoider out to be a pariah?

Motive obviously always matters with the ethics of behavior, so yes that would be a factor in setting the bar of evidence needed. But the amount of evidence supporting the claim of wrongdoing could still matter, especially if there was information that favored the conclusion the person did not do what they are accused of. I think it's the moral responsibility of people to apply reason and gather evidence when acting in ways that impact others.

What about the main point of the section you quoted, where the motive is "social justice" on the part of others who are not trying to avoid the person to protect themselves from trauma but rather trying to cause the person harm by getting them fired and having them shunned from society? I would say that requires evidence beyond reasonable doubt for such reactions to be immoral, and without such evidence this kind of public outrage is more immoral than a corporation trying to profit off of stupid people.
 
Google starfishing. I did. He basically accused her of laying there like a dead thing when the situation was that she wasn't interested in having sex with him.
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This is on some level emotional abuse.

That isn't true. He did not call her a starfish as some critique of her disinterest in sex but rather referred to how bad the "starfishing" sex was, using the term as a verb/action, implying that was a deliberate type of sex act on both their parts. Many of the online discussions of "starfishing" talk about it as a deliberate over-exaggeration of fake "disinterest" where the woman is willingly passive. A woman who simply let's a man have sex while not interested does not lie in the unnatural position of having her legs and arms spread out as far as possible, in the shape of a starfish. It is sometimes used as kind of sex role playing/kinky type thing.

There are also numerous discussion that talk about the woman wanting to be intimate but simply lacking the physical energy, thus deliberately using the starfishing technique as a way to have sex without doing the work.

Not to mention, the information suggesting she was in it mostly for career favors suggests she was likely using the technique as a way to make it seem like she was getting nothing out of the sex and it was all a favor to him that he would need to repay by helping her career. That would make it unhealthy on both their parts but no more abusive on his part than hers. If anything it could by more manipulative and abusive by her, since sex is a typical part of a relationship with an admitted "boyfriend" while giving career favors is not.

There may be other things that suggest Hardwick is the bigger asshole here, but the "starfishing" does not support that and calling it "abusive" without more information is immorally reckless.
 
Google starfishing. I did. He basically accused her of laying there like a dead thing when the situation was that she wasn't interested in having sex with him.
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This is on some level emotional abuse.

That isn't true. He did not call her a starfish as some critique of her disinterest in sex but rather referred to how bad the "starfishing" sex was, using the term as a verb/action, implying that was a deliberate type of sex act on both their parts. Many of the online discussions of "starfishing" talk about it as a deliberate over-exaggeration of fake "disinterest" where the woman is willingly passive. A woman who simply let's a man have sex while not interested does not lie in the unnatural position of having her legs and arms spread out as far as possible, in the shape of a starfish. It is sometimes used as kind of sex role playing/kinky type thing.

There are also numerous discussion that talk about the woman wanting to be intimate but simply lacking the physical energy, thus deliberately using the starfishing technique as a way to have sex without doing the work.

Not to mention, the information suggesting she was in it mostly for career favors suggests she was likely using the technique as a way to make it seem like she was getting nothing out of the sex and it was all a favor to him that he would need to repay by helping her career. That would make it unhealthy on both their parts but no more abusive on his part than hers. If anything it could by more manipulative and abusive by her, since sex is a typical part of a relationship with an admitted "boyfriend" while giving career favors is not.

There may be other things that suggest Hardwick is the bigger asshole here, but the "starfishing" does not support that and calling it "abusive" without more information is immorally reckless.

I don’t agree—obviously. She was not interested in sex. He insisted. She was passive as she was uninterested and felt she had to tolerate the sex. He ridiculed her (starfish comment which he thought was funny). He also pointed out that he broke up with his last girlfriend for not wanting sex when he did.

So he insists in sexual with an uninterested partner, uses a veiled threat to gain compliance and then calls her names and laughs at her lack of enthusiasm.

Yeah, that’s emotionally abusive. Now it’s not the worst instance I’ve heard about but it’s abusive. And pretty much guaranteed to lessen her enjoyment of sex at present and in the future.
 
[opinion]I think I have a problem with some posters thinking of some of these things as force without an actual physical force. Words like "confine" with respect to hotel room or "force" or even emotional abuse as it applies to one of these alleged forceful things as an underlying assumption. Or at a minimum I am very skeptical about emotional abuse there, in those kinds of instances anyway. When I originally wrote that they ought to be "equal partners" that wasn't a mark against Hardwick but really on both of them. I think it should be explored and understood on her part, too. So, for example, a person with "daddy issues" who perceives they are being forced into things and confined in places needs therapy IMO. This is a thing I think where such person perceives themselves as a "leaf in the wind" affected by other people and circumstance without actually owning up to either their own desirousness or how they ought to behave by advocating for themselves in their relationship. So after just 2 weeks of a relationship she was already complaining about the relationship and putting it on Hardwick but she wasn't using equally powered influence to change the relationship. She complained that he was in it for someone to go to events with and bed, probably, and she also complained he laid down a Relationship Agreement. Now that's just as much on her to say "no, I don't like that" and "let's compromise here, here, and here." So just because he says, "I don't want you hanging out with a man in private" or whatever does NOT mean she is being forced to follow that as a rule. He is not her dad and she is not a child but a grown woman. She can respond with her own terms on his behavior, if she wants. The fact that she has this misperception about how she could not actively influence her relationship and influence her partner with her own communications or even threaten to end the relationship early on when it is not going her way was a huge factor that played a role in how the relationship ended up. And her continued misperception of being a "leaf blowing in the wind" is belied by her taking an active role in cheating. To cheat, you have to decide to actively lie and to actively talk about what you desire with another partner. With Hardwick, she wasn't a slave in a prison but a grown person with freedom and at any moment she could have snapped out of it and said bye-bye. OR maybe she couldn't and if so, then her lack of being able to get out has a root cause of emotional immaturity and because of needing some therapy prior to trying to get into a relationship. Now, I don't want to say she caused what happened because I think that's way, way too strong. She's more of a passive actor in all this who didn't know how to deal with it and misread her own mind, lacking true honesty and understanding of one's self.

All that said, Hardwick is completely at fault for his own actions and behaviors.[/opinion]

ETA: As I review my post I wonder how much my post will be understood. This part in particular "And her continued misperception of being a 'leaf blowing in the wind' is belied by her taking an active role in cheating. To cheat, you have to decide to actively lie and to actively talk about what you desire with another partner." What I had meant by this is it seems contradictory in her case. She had time to speak with another partner honestly and clearly voice some abnormal things to that partner. So, she could have also voiced such things to Hardwick.
 
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[opinion]I think I have a problem with some posters thinking of some of these things as force without an actual physical force. Words like "confine" with respect to hotel room or "force" or even emotional abuse as it applies to one of these alleged forceful things as an underlying assumption. Or at a minimum I am very skeptical about emotional abuse there, in those kinds of instances anyway. When I originally wrote that they ought to be "equal partners" that wasn't a mark against Hardwick but really on both of them. I think it should be explored and understood on her part, too. So, for example, a person with "daddy issues" who perceives they are being forced into things and confined in places needs therapy IMO. This is a thing I think where such person perceives themselves as a "leaf in the wind" affected by other people and circumstance without actually owning up to either their own desirousness or how they ought to behave by advocating for themselves in their relationship. So after just 2 weeks of a relationship she was already complaining about the relationship and putting it on Hardwick but she wasn't using equally powered influence to change the relationship. She complained that he was in it for someone to go to events with and bed, probably, and she also complained he laid down a Relationship Agreement. Now that's just as much on her to say "no, I don't like that" and "let's compromise here, here, and here." So just because he says, "I don't want you hanging out with a man in private" or whatever does NOT mean she is being forced to follow that as a rule. He is not her dad and she is not a child but a grown woman. She can respond with her own terms on his behavior, if she wants. The fact that she has this misperception about how she could not actively influence her relationship and influence her partner with her own communications or even threaten to end the relationship early on when it is not going her way was a huge factor that played a role in how the relationship ended up. And her continued misperception of being a "leaf blowing in the wind" is belied by her taking an active role in cheating. To cheat, you have to decide to actively lie and to actively talk about what you desire with another partner. With Hardwick, she wasn't a slave in a prison but a grown person with freedom and at any moment she could have snapped out of it and said bye-bye. OR maybe she couldn't and if so, then her lack of being able to get out has a root cause of emotional immaturity and because of needing some therapy prior to trying to get into a relationship. Now, I don't want to say she caused what happened because I think that's way, way too strong. She's more of a passive actor in all this who didn't know how to deal with it and misread her own mind, lacking true honesty and understanding of one's self.

All that said, Hardwick is completely at fault for his own actions and behaviors.[/opinion]

ETA: As I review my post I wonder how much my post will be understood. This part in particular "And her continued misperception of being a 'leaf blowing in the wind' is belied by her taking an active role in cheating. To cheat, you have to decide to actively lie and to actively talk about what you desire with another partner." What I had meant by this is it seems contradictory in her case. She had time to speak with another partner honestly and clearly voice some abnormal things to that partner. So, she could have also voiced such things to Hardwick.



You seem to be operating under the assumption that the two people in the relationship were equal partners. They clearly were not. In fact, in many/most relationships, one person is often more dominant than the other. More commonly, one partner may be more dominant in certain areas: social life, for instance, or financial life or housework or whatever and the other partner is more dominant in other areas of their shared life. That assumes certain equality or at least some agreement that Person A will take the lead on long term financial planning while Person Be takes the lead on managing day to day finances; Person B takes the lead on scheduling major repairs to the abode and figuring out financing, etc; Person A does more or is at least in charge of the routine day to day maintenance schedule--how often things get vacuumed, mopped, etc. One parent is usually more involved and makes more of the day to day decisions and running of the household with regards to children; the other parent may take on a larger, more dominant role as the children get older or for a variety of reasons. Those types of negotiations/specialization of various aspects of Family Life are or can be indicative of a healthy, balanced relationship between equal partners. They aren't necessarily but they can be and in my observation, mostly are.

I've also seen relationships where one partner was much more dominant than the other--sometimes the female, sometimes the male. Markedly so.

This relationship does not seem to have started out with the two individuals on equal footing, at least partially because of the significant disparity in age/career development/economic power. I would guess that their individual personalities played a big part in this. She seems to have felt as though she had little choice but to go along with how he wanted things. Sometimes, that happens in relationships. One person is simply more dominant and calls most of the shots. The other person, while legally able to simply walk away, may not be able to do that emotionally. Not for a while. And not if control is asserted gradually or only over certain areas and then more and more. One can enter into a relationship with someone you admire and respect and whose judgement you defer to because of the admiration you hold for them. This is more likely to happen if one is older/more economically stable/powerful . Deference can gradually--or not so gradually become capitulation as one's self confidence erodes because the other person asserts their better fitness to make decisions or stronger need for things to be a certain way--because of their career, or because they're going through a rough patch, or because they are sick or whatever. It usually starts out small but it can escalate quickly.

There is a reason that people who are physically abused in a relationship don't simply walk away the first time they are hit. It's because it doesn't start out that bad and because there is already a pattern of dependence which has been created between the two people. Plus there are other factors. In this case, she feels she must be extra understanding because he just ended a long term relationship and she figures he needs extra (fill in the blank) so she gives it to him. Given that she's younger --and I've never seen a relationship between singificantly younger woman/older man where the older man did not point out with great frequency that he is older, more mature, more experienced, better fit to do whatever it is he wants to do. There's generally a lot of charm and a lot of sex involved, at least initially. It's easy to see how it evolves that way.

Now, you may never have ever been the sort of person who would either dominate or be submissive to another person. Personally, I'm not that way, much to the displeasure of more than one former boyfriend or would be boyfriend who saw tiny girl with a soft voice and thought: pushover.

But lots of people are not that way. For a lot of people, they feel that someone must be In Charge. Personally, I prefer shared decision making with willingness to defer to expertise/time/inclination/special needs. When my husband was in grad school, I assumed most of the household/child care chores during crunch times for me, even when I was working full time + commute. When things were quieter: breaks and slower times for him, I fully expected him to assume a more equal share of the work, for example. But still, for a lot of people, they aren't naturally inclined to the shared decision making model and certain circumstances which create vulnerabilities in one or the other can skew a balance. Sometimes the relationship never regains an equal footing.

So, no he did not barricade her in the hotel room but he made it clear that she was supposed to stay there while he did WHATEVER. Since it was at least somewhat related to his career, of course she deferred. His career was IMPORTANT. Hers was just beginning. And I'm sure he paid for the hotel room. She was a good girl doing what he wanted her to do. He did not beat her into submission to force her to have sex with him but he did hold over a threat of leaving her while ridiculing her lack of enthusiasm to ensure her compliance. He did trash her work opportunities to create an economic dependence on him, making it much harder to simply say See Ya. Especially if there genuinely was love and affection or reasonable facsimiles on one or both sides. That's abuse. It may not have been intentional abuse and it's certainly not even close to stuff I've seen first hand. But it was there.

I believe they genuinely cared for each other, at least in the beginning. That does not mean that it was an equal or healthy relationship. I don't think it was either an equal or a healthy relationship at any point, even if they both intended it to be.
 
But what exactly is an “equal” relationship? That implies that both parties are somehow already “complete” in and of themselves and are coming together as a calculated decision. I have never met a “complete” person and certainly do not consider myself to be “complete.” Most of us, in fact, look to a partner to complete us (there are even songs and entire industries devoted to such an idea).

There seems to be a tendency in these discussions to paint one of the participants as omniscient, while the other an innocent. Perhaps not on purpose, but that seems to be the natural affirmative/negative positions. The one you (the general you) are defending is typically seen as the innocent, while the one you’re defending against the omniscient who therefore should have known better.

In fact, no one knows shit. Unless we’re truly talking about a predator like Cosby. In most relationships, there is never a steady state, yin-yang. It’s more like an escalatory pinball/pachinko game, where both people are trying to figure out what the other one is doing/saying/feeling and most of the time it’s a crapshoot for all concerned.

There are a LOT of games people play and for many, they don’t even know they are playing them. There is also a tendency to think that the other person knows better or should know better (it’s even a cliche to have one person in a relationship insist that the other be a mind reader and anticipate the other’s thoughts/moods/feelings and when that doesn’t happen, punishment ensues; etc).

And that’s with “normal” people (whatever that means), but just taking Dykstra’s account of their relationship at face value, these are both very troubled (psychologically) people with issues that go way beyond their particular interactions. Again, someone confessing to having “daddy issues” alone is not speaking lightly, even if she meant it jokingly. Seeking out an abusive father-figure that you then “starfish” paints a desperate picture all in its own right.

Again, that does not affix blame or excuse any actions, but it certainly indicates a psychological complexity with the individuals and the relationship that goes beyond leaving everything at anecdotal narrative. Iow, it can’t be the whole picture.

As I said before, I’m sure all of us could write a narrative about a previous (or current) relationship that even if we were to paint ourselves in the worst light we could think of, would still paint our “side” as justifiable while the other “side” is the monster. But that doesn’t make it objectively true. Far from it and how could it be other?

Hell, I didn’t even reallize the full extent of my ex-fiance’s cheating until the second she told me—six months after saying she’d marry me—that she didn’t want to marry me. She had lied so convincingly and gaslighted me so expertly over those six months of her evidently fucking everything that moved (almost literally) that only when I saw the fundamental change in her body posture and look in her eye toward me when she said “we need to talk” that what she was saying was not the beginning of a troubled time, but a definitive ending to something I wasn’t even aware I was a part of until that moment.

Yes, long distance played a significant factor, but still. We are often the most blind to the shit that is happening right in front of us until it is too late to do anything about it.

So, is she the monster for doing what she did? Am I the monster for doing (or not doing, as I think the case was) something I didn’t even know was the cause of anything? Was there even any one cause or anything attributable to me or her for that matter (she was four years younger, an only child of parents where the father had cheated on the mother, but they stayed together for her and her mother wanted her to marry a Jew and basically be a heartbreaker to make up for what her father did, etc)?

The point being that it’s a shitshow of unknowns all the way around at all times, unless, again, we’re talking about predators like Cosby.

So, for the serious in the thread and not just the he-man woman-haters, how in the world do we come up with any kind of general guidelines for indviduals that do suddenly seem to wake up to find a radical change in perception has occurred? Especially in situations where love and affection can so easily blind us to true intentions and false allegiance, let alone any underlying psychological/traumatic past events that we often suppress or otherwise have no idea are even a factor?

It seems like the best course of action is definitely NOT to keep it to yourself as has been an unfortunate case in far too many such instances. Tell a friend; keep a diary; send some emails. Those would be good starting points if one is present enough to even recognize that they are now within an abusive relationship and yet still not capable—for whatever reason—of just ending it and getting out.

What else?
 
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While I have no idea who the people are that are the subject of this thread, it seems to me that in most any relationship where the partners have a large age discrepancy, there will probably be insecurity in the older partner.
Who doesn’t have some insecurities? :P
I’ve known two women who had real ‘Daddy issues’, i.e. From their early teens onward, they were emtionally and sexually attracted to men 20 to 30 years older than they were.
The first woman I met in my 20’s, I was just 4 years older... so she wasn’t romantically interested in me. But we hung out together for years.
At 19, she fell for a 47 year old, and ended up breaking up his marriage. That relationship didn’t last long.

When I was 44, a good looking 23 year old woman pursued me and we ended up getting married (lasted a few years). She made it clear that she was going to be the “alpha” in the relationship, and I went along with this because... well, I had never dated a woman as attractive as her, even when I was her age.
Her father was about 30 years older than her mother, so I figured she knew what she was getting into with the age thing. We did have a lot of fun for awhile.
As far as I know, I was the youngest guy she ever had a serious relationship with. She just wasn’t very attracted to guys her own age.

Both these women appeared comfortable with older men. I would even say their personalities had molded themselves to be more compatible with someone older. (e.g. How they talked. The type of entertainment they preferred.)
 
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“Daddy issues” is, of course, a catch-phrase that covers a LOT of psychological ground. It includes everything from the positive to the negative to the unimaginable.

As I noted previously, it’s not just a casual phrase. Or, rather, it often betrays something much deeper going on and when you combine the other indicators from her account, I would guess it is on the darker end of the spectrum.

Again, that doesn’t matter in regard to Hardwick’s culpability in any alleged abusive activity, but it does matter in regard to the dynamic of their relationship and/or in regard to issues neither party may have been at all aware of and yet were still impacted by.

Throw Hardwick’s psychological baggage into the mix (which we only have an inkling of from her perspective) and you’ve got two seriously incompatible people basically enabling and escalating each other’s worst qualities. And since those qualities are typically masked, they were inching closer and closer to the cliff while thinking (evidently, at least initially) that they were saving each other from the cliff.

Or so the worthless internet armchair assessment would seem. Point being that in this particular instance, there is evidently a lot of psychological unpacking to do for both parties and no real way for any third party just reading her account alone to make any informed conclusion one way or another as to who did what.

So what was her intent in writing that piece? Just to publicly voice her experience (as she saw it)? She must have known that it would be tied to Hardwick and that in turn would result in serious consequences for his career as has been the case for so many others.

Does her need to publicly voice her experience outweigh the consequences (real or potential)? She didn’t specifically name him, after all, but shouldn’t she have known? Does that matter?

Again, these are not questions for the women-haters. We already know and/or can predict your answers, so just take them as “read.”
 
Sounds like Chris and his girlfriend had a dysfunctional, probably mostly miserable relationship. Gee...news at 11. In the days before social media you would argue, fight and eventually end the relationship, take your lumps, maybe write a few nasty letters back and forth, spy on the other from behind the bushes across the street and then you both eventually get on with your lives. Nowadays, you post your relationship dirty laundry and/or make up some tall tales about sexual assault and domestic violence on the internet, and quite possibly ruin one or both lives. Like most everyone I've had a few relationships that turned pretty sour (nothing too horrible though), but never, ever wanted to see the other person destroyed or even suffer. What the hell is wrong with people these days?
 
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