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Christianity as idolatry

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Messages
13,782
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.
"we must not allow our idolatry of art to obscure issues of political significance"


Idolatry is the worship of an idol as though it were God.[1][2][3] In Abrahamic religions (namely Judaism, Samaritanism, Christianity, the Baháʼí Faith, and Islam) idolatry connotes the worship of something or someone other than the Abrahamic god as if it were God.[4] In these monotheistic religions, idolatry has been considered as the "worship of false gods" and is forbidden by the values such as the Ten Commandments. Other monotheistic religions may apply similar rules.[5] In many Indian religions, such as theistic and non-theistic forms of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, idols (murti) are considered as symbolism for the absolute but not The Absolute,[6] or icons of spiritual ideas,[6][7] or the embodiment of the divine.[8] It is a means to focus one's religious pursuits and worship (bhakti).[6][9][7] In the traditional religions of ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, Africa, Asia, the Americas and elsewhere, the reverence of cult images or statues has been a common practice since antiquity, and cult images have carried different meanings and significance in the history of religion.[1][10][11] Moreover, the material depiction of a deity or more deities has always played an eminent role in all cultures of the world.[10]

The opposition to the use of any icon or image to represent ideas of reverence or worship is called aniconism.[12] The destruction of images as icons of veneration is called iconoclasm,[13] and this has long been accompanied with violence between religious groups that forbid idol worship and those who have accepted icons, images and statues for veneration.[14][15] The definition of idolatry has been a contested topic within Abrahamic religions, with many Muslims and most Protestant Christians condemning the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox practice of venerating the Virgin Mary in many churches as a form of idolatry.[16][17]

The history of religions has been marked with accusations and denials of idolatry. These accusations have considered statues and images to be devoid of symbolism. Alternatively, the topic of idolatry has been a source of disagreements between many religions, or within denominations of various religions, with the presumption that icons of one's own religious practices have meaningful symbolism, while another person's different religious practices do not.[18][19]


The RCC church I ent to as a kid was a small basilica with a dome over the alter. Suspended over the alter was a cross with a bloody porcelain white Jesus with a crown of thorns and a hole in the side. For a kid it was awesome.

Christians direct love at a mental or physical image of Jesus and feel love n return. Like Love Bug Briohter in 1984 or love the leader in NK.

Catholics idolize the pope.
 
The RCC church I ent to as a kid was a small basilica with a dome over the alter. Suspended over the alter was a cross with a bloody porcelain white Jesus with a crown of thorns and a hole in the side. For a kid it was awesome.

Christians direct love at a mental or physical image of Jesus and feel love n return. Like Love Bug Briohter in 1984 or love the leader in NK.

Catholics idolize the pope.

I think idols are so popular because you can actually see them. The "real" God gave us eyes to observe, yet he won't let us use them to see him making himself invisible. He then gets very upset when people doubt his existence.
 
Exodus 20:4-5
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God"

I think that would include a crucifix....
 
Catholics idolize the pope.
You ought to become more familiar with modern Catholics before making such sweeping generalizations. Modern popes have been heavily criticized for all sorts of things.
One biggy I recall very clearly was when the Pope declared the impending U.S. invasion of Iraq a "crime against humanity". Conservative Catholic Republicans were outraged! And there's lots of those.

It was a big problem for Catholics here in very conservative Republican Indiana.
Tom
 
Exodus 20:4-5
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God"

I think that would include a crucifix....
Recognizing the utterly irrational, internally contradictory, nature of "Trinitarian Monotheism" was a big step away from my Catholic roots.

I thought that made me an atheist. I couldn't be a protestant, because then I'd go to Hell.
:)
Tom
 
People weep in the square when a pope is elected. Mybe not so much with educated Catholicsm but Car=tholics in general. Nothing has really chnaged. The RCC has focused on places with ooor undercoated populations for conversions.
 
Catholics idolize the pope.
You ought to become more familiar with modern Catholics before making such sweeping generalizations. Modern popes have been heavily criticized for all sorts of things.
One biggy I recall very clearly was when the Pope declared the impending U.S. invasion of Iraq a "crime against humanity". Conservative Catholic Republicans were outraged! And there's lots of those.

It was a big problem for Catholics here in very conservative Republican Indiana.
Tom
If some Catholics no longer idolize the Pope, then they might be on their way to becoming exCatholics. I was raised Catholic, and my becoming alienated by the clergy led to my leaving the Church. Or it might be more accurate to say that the Church left me.
 
Exodus 20:4-5
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God"

I think that would include a crucifix....
Don't understate the ability of any religion to rationalize what they do no matter how inconsistent it might be. Catholics will tell you that they only "venerate" objects like crucifixes and statues--they don't actually worship them or pray to them. Such objects are merely symbols of the people they represent.

Maybe so, but it sure looks like idol worship to me!
 
Catholics idolize the pope.
You ought to become more familiar with modern Catholics before making such sweeping generalizations. Modern popes have been heavily criticized for all sorts of things.
One biggy I recall very clearly was when the Pope declared the impending U.S. invasion of Iraq a "crime against humanity". Conservative Catholic Republicans were outraged! And there's lots of those.

It was a big problem for Catholics here in very conservative Republican Indiana.
Tom
If some Catholics no longer idolize the Pope, then they might be on their way to becoming exCatholics. I was raised Catholic, and my becoming alienated by the clergy led to my leaving the Church. Or it might be more accurate to say that the Church left me.

I cannot speak to your personal issues since I barely know you.

I quoted the part of your post I was responding to quite specifically.
Tom
 
The RCC church I ent to as a kid was a small basilica with a dome over the alter. Suspended over the alter was a cross with a bloody porcelain white Jesus with a crown of thorns and a hole in the side. For a kid it was awesome.

Christians direct love at a mental or physical image of Jesus and feel love n return. Like Love Bug Briohter in 1984 or love the leader in NK.

Catholics idolize the pope.

I think idols are so popular because you can actually see them. The "real" God gave us eyes to observe, yet he won't let us use them to see him making himself invisible. He then gets very upset when people doubt his existence.
This is to me the crux of a very deep paradox indeed: I do not think that any god worth not kicking in whatever gonads or vulnerable bits their avatar posesses would in any way be critical of people who doubt their existence.

I think instead they would be critical of those who do not use the eyes they have to see, to come to an understanding of what harms our abilities to seek goals, to understand our ethics and metaphysics. To me the unforgivable sin would be, in a universe with the complexity to support life, intelligence, vision and understanding, to disregard in total the power and responsibility even for one's own sake to shut one's eyes because someone wishes to believe and have "faith".

I am living proof that you can have faith without shutting your eyes.
 
I cannot speak to your personal issues since I barely know you.

Well, I presume that you don't know anybody here, but you can surely comment on their "personal issues" in particular personal issues related to religion.

If you're having difficulty nevertheless, then allow me to fill you in. At a young age while I attended a Catholic school I became disabled. That school did not have good access for the disabled, and the school administrators refused to alter the building citing the costs of doing so being prohibitively high. As a result, I ended up needing to transfer to a different school, a public school that did have both better access and services for the disabled. So that's what I mean when I say that I became alienated by the Catholic clergy and that the Catholic Church "left me." Note that the public school trumped the Catholic school in its willingness to accommodate the disabled. Both my parents, staunch Catholics, became furious with my supposedly leaving the church being blind to the truth that the Church actually left me behind.

I quoted the part of your post I was responding to quite specifically.
Tom
I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you be more specific?
 
The RCC church I ent to as a kid was a small basilica with a dome over the alter. Suspended over the alter was a cross with a bloody porcelain white Jesus with a crown of thorns and a hole in the side. For a kid it was awesome.

Christians direct love at a mental or physical image of Jesus and feel love n return. Like Love Bug Briohter in 1984 or love the leader in NK.

Catholics idolize the pope.

I think idols are so popular because you can actually see them. The "real" God gave us eyes to observe, yet he won't let us use them to see him making himself invisible. He then gets very upset when people doubt his existence.
This is to me the crux of a very deep paradox indeed: I do not think that any god worth not kicking in whatever gonads or vulnerable bits their avatar posesses would in any way be critical of people who doubt their existence.

I think instead they would be critical of those who do not use the eyes they have to see, to come to an understanding of what harms our abilities to seek goals, to understand our ethics and metaphysics. To me the unforgivable sin would be, in a universe with the complexity to support life, intelligence, vision and understanding, to disregard in total the power and responsibility even for one's own sake to shut one's eyes because someone wishes to believe and have "faith".

I am living proof that you can have faith without shutting your eyes.
Christians, Jews, and Muslims all run from commiserative orthodox, to nioderate, to liberal, to religious in name only.

Saying you have faith is like saying yiu are atheist says nothing to me. Al that matters is how you act in society regardless of what you believe. Without freedom of beliefs western liberal democracy has no point.
 
This is to me the crux of a very deep paradox indeed: I do not think that any god worth not kicking in whatever gonads or vulnerable bits their avatar posesses would in any way be critical of people who doubt their existence.

Yes. Of course an all wise and benevolent God would not become wrathful and violent toward anybody who doubts she exists. She would be smart enough to let them know she exists if she even cares. And letting people "know" her will via strange people who claim to speak for her would not be very smart. It would also be very stupid of her to author a huge and confusing book that many people never read, or if they do read it, they fight over what it means!

Now, on the other hand, if God is the creation of crafty people seeking to dupe others into believing what they say, then it makes good sense that God would be said to have authored a book that confuses people, induces paranoia in them, and inspires them to be willfully ignorant and superstitious not to mention violent. When people create Gods often the only way to get people to believe in those Gods is to use fear and force. That's why presumed Gods like Allah and Yahweh have caused so much trouble and are said to have commanded fear and force.

I think instead they would be critical of those who do not use the eyes they have to see, to come to an understanding of what harms our abilities to seek goals, to understand our ethics and metaphysics. To me the unforgivable sin would be, in a universe with the complexity to support life, intelligence, vision and understanding, to disregard in total the power and responsibility even for one's own sake to shut one's eyes because someone wishes to believe and have "faith".

I agree and should add that if a God does exist who cares that we believe in her, then she would want us to use the utmost care that we are not misled about her true nature and her will. The kind of faith many religions promote is likely to make people vulnerable to being misled about any God who really exists. Why would a God want people to be gullible believing blindly the claims of people like Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad?

I am living proof that you can have faith without shutting your eyes.

I have debated atheists who define faith as being gullible or blind to the truth. I explained to them that although some faith is blind, faith can just as easily be based on reason and evidence. I understand faith as confidence or trust that some claim is true. Any sensible person has that kind of trust or confidence, and hence they have faith. I think atheists are wrong when they say reason and evidence alone are enough to discover truth. You can have all the reason and evidence in the world right under your nose, but until you confidently accept the conclusion that's based on that evidence and follows from that reason (i.e. have faith), you will remain ignorant of that truth.
 
My experience in the 50s-60s in RCC schools was generally good. The religious indoctrination never took hold.

Considering my family situation the schools were a help.

Positives and negatives.
 
When I did a lot of driving, I found myself listening to a lot of Christian radio. It's amazing how in rural America you can almost always find a Christian radio station when nothing else is available.

At any rate, from listening to those stations, I was struck how often the word "idol" gets used to describe any sort of attachment to anything, be it physical objects or mental ideas. I guess it's only considered idolatry if it's an attachment to something that can't be seen as "Godly".
 
Exodus 20:4-5
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God"

I think that would include a crucifix....
Recognizing the utterly irrational, internally contradictory, nature of "Trinitarian Monotheism" was a big step away from my Catholic roots.

I thought that made me an atheist. I couldn't be a protestant, because then I'd go to Hell.
:)
Tom
Heh.

"Then you do not intend to become a protestant?"

"I said that I had lost the faith but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?”

- A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
 
Exodus 20:4-5
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God"

I think that would include a crucifix....
Recognizing the utterly irrational, internally contradictory, nature of "Trinitarian Monotheism" was a big step away from my Catholic roots.

I thought that made me an atheist. I couldn't be a protestant, because then I'd go to Hell.
:)
Tom
Heh.

"Then you do not intend to become a protestant?"

"I said that I had lost the faith but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?”

- A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

I really didn't understand that protestants believed in Jesus as God. I was very young and from a very sheltered Catholic world.

I thought that protestants were pretending to be Christian(Catholic). They just went to church, but refused to believe in Jesus's Own Church, because they wanted to sin. My Catholic school had no problem pointing out the Scripture where Jesus made the first Pope, Peter, "His rock, upon which He would build His Church."
Tom
 
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