Christianity - holding the dead hostage

[repoman]

Belief in the afterlife as a salve for the sting of mortality is one thing, I really see almost no way around this happening to a fairly large degree. But this saving by faith and damning by lack of it is so intensely wrong.

I only got reminded about this from watching a very sad and yet brave video of a self eulogy from Japan for a woman who I am almost totally sure was not Christian. This is so much better than the way many of us do it and I think it comes down to this shit Christian monopoly over mourning.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Ever been to a church funeral where the pastor had absolutely no clue about the state of faith of the deceased? Richly comic. They'll still burble on about the promise of everlasting life in heaven and refer to the resurrection of the deceased into a new and glorious life.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Ever been to a church funeral where the pastor had absolutely no clue about the state of faith of the deceased?

very fun when Grandma has just enough of a grasp of reality to follow the conversation, but enough Alzheimer's to ignore the solemnity of the moment and shout "The FUCK he did!"

I think Gpa would have wanted it that way. It was his sense of humor that got him thru the big loads, not his faith.

 

[Angry Floof]

Christianity isn't about faith or spirituality. It's a social dominance virus that hijacks fear and cultivates prejudice. Individuals love the comforting, delusional personal narratives about faith or spirituality so much that they are blind to the bigger picture and have no idea they are operating as cancer cells.

 

[Lion IRC]

A "salve" ?
I thought atheists were the ones who worried whether there might be an afterlife.

 

[Jobar]

A "salve" ?
I thought atheists were the ones who worried whether there might be an afterlife.

View attachment 16374

No, no. Unbelievers are the ones telling you to stop worrying. How can you read that sign and think otherwise?

It cannot be emphasized too strongly that Christianity has a vested interest in human misery. This central theme manifests itself again and again in Christian doctrines, and most Christian doctrines are unintelligible unless viewed in this context. The spectacular success of Christianity has been a topic of heated debate among scholars, and it is certainly true that definite historical factors influenced that success. I suggest, however, that much of Christianity's success can be accounted for in another way: Christianity, perhaps more than any religion before or since, capitalized on human suffering; and it was enormously successful in insuring its own existence through the perpetuation of human suffering.
...

Since the foremost aim of Christian ethics, psychologically speaking, is to cultivate a mentality of obedience, Christian ethics, to the extent that one adopts it, will cause and contribute to a variety of psychological problems. It encourages intellectual passivity, fear that one's thoughts and emotions may be sinful, guilt at the thought of sexual assertiveness, and the pervading feeling that one is basically helpless, unimportant and evil.

 

[Lion IRC]

I can see why wishful thinking unbelievers wouldnt want to worry about hell.

 

[Lion IRC]

The claim that wishful thinking people invent God in their preferred likeness is nowhere more true than in atheism.

...a harmless, impotent, hands-off God who makes no difference and need not be worried about.

 

[abaddon]

I can see why wishful thinking unbelievers wouldnt want to worry about hell.

Why did you imagine the banner is for unbelievers?

The claim that wishful thinking people invent God in their preferred likeness is nowhere more true than in atheism.

...a harmless, impotent, hands-off God who makes no difference and need not be worried about.

What happened to your brain that makes you unable to imagine people who don't believe in God?

 

[Lion IRC]

The banner is a message written BY unbelievers.
It clearly associates belief in God with worry

And I assure you I have no difficulty believing/imagining that atheists exist. Mr Dawkins is clearly very happy to be an atheist who doesn't worry about God.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I can see why wishful thinking unbelievers wouldnt want to worry about hell.

No more than you worry about Hades, or Elysium. With an exception. There are some atheists that still have terrifyingly neurotic and anxious feelings about hell, even though they don't believe in it, such was the toxicity of the forced belief. You are viewing this from your own lens. You do this because like many Christians, you may have a distorted and warped sense of love. I have seen many Christians that have this contorted image. I've seen them shun family and friends. Push the needy while they're down, show callous and blatant disregard for the feelings of others, deny others basic human rights, and express the most outright bigoted behavior - all in the name of the love of Jesus Christ.

Now, before you so quickly move to say "atheists do this too" let me me inform you, yes, there are some atheists that do these horrible things. However, we don't claim that being an atheist makes you a better person, that it will prevent these types of behaviors. That is the province of other outlooks. Your religion DOES ABSOLUTELY make those promises. It steadfastly does not deliver. Not only does it fail but it fails spectacularly, as often it influences otherwise good people to do bad things. Plus, you get to do so while looking down your nose at everyone else.

We may as well keep looking to Catholic priests as to how to take care of children, or have a strong marriage. You have all lost your moral authority long ago, you just don't realize it yet.

 

[bilby]

The banner is a message written BY unbelievers.
It clearly associates belief in God with worry

And I assure you I have no difficulty believing/imagining that atheists exist. Mr Dawkins is clearly very happy to be an atheist who doesn't worry about God.

If Dawkins said "Drinking to excess is a real worry. Heavy drinkers should stop drinking and seek professional help", Presumably you would interpret that as indicative of atheists being alcoholics, because the people who are drinking methylated spirits from brown paper bags in the park cannot have a problem as they don't seem to be worried at all.

You stand as an excellent example of how religion disables a person's ability to think clearly about even fairly simple and obvious things.

 

[Lion IRC]

I can see why wishful thinking unbelievers wouldnt want to worry about hell.

...We may as well keep looking to Catholic priests as to how to take care of children, or have a strong marriage. You have all lost your moral authority long ago, you just don't realize it yet.

Everytime an atheist tries to concern-troll me about nasty 'priests' doing horrible stuff I'm reminded of the fine investigative work done by Daniel Dennet and Dan Barker who discovered how many atheists there are masquerading as clergy.
Those atheist clergy (hedonistically enjoying life) certainly wouldn't be worried about a God who punishes sins like pedophilia and fraud and theft.

 

[Lion IRC]

If Dawkins said "Drinking to excess is a real worry. Heavy drinkers should stop drinking and seek professional help",

Dawkins doesn't say that.
He says you have nothing to fear from drinking...stop worrying and enjoy your drinking.

Presumably you would interpret that as indicative of atheists being alcoholics,

Nope. Alcoholics Anonymous say that being an alcoholic is bad. Dawkins says atheism is good because it alleviates worry.

...people who are drinking methylated spirits from brown paper bags in the park cannot have a problem as they don't seem to be worried at all.

No they don't seem worried. You're right.

You stand as an excellent example of how religion disables a person's ability to think clearly about even fairly simple and obvious things.

You mean like atheists ...err I mean alcoholics not wanting to worry?

 

[Lion IRC]

By all means go ahead and claim that people invented God/afterlife as a palliative form of wishful thinking. But please don't be hypocrites and think that the exact same straw argument can be applied to atheists.

Frankly, I'd prefer NOT to impute motives which my interlocutor denies point blank because it's bad faith and intellectual dishonesty. But in response to Ops like this one, it's a matter of fighting fire with fire.

 

[abaddon]

Belief in the afterlife as a salve for the sting of mortality is one thing, I really see almost no way around this happening to a fairly large degree. But this saving by faith and damning by lack of it is so intensely wrong.

It is. Psychologically it's one of the most vile, hurtful things people can do to other people.

Lion IRC is a victim too. Though his dogmatism results in annoying dishonesty and ineptitude, still it's an example of the harm done by religion.

 

[bilby]

Frankly, I'd prefer NOT to impute motives which my interlocutor denies point blank because it's bad faith and intellectual dishonesty.

But you are so good at it, and it's all you've got. So you do it anyway.

 

[abaddon]

By all means go ahead and claim that people invented God/afterlife as a palliative form of wishful thinking. But please don't be hypocrites and think that the exact same straw argument can be applied to atheists.

Frankly, I'd prefer NOT to impute motives which my interlocutor denies point blank because it's bad faith and intellectual dishonesty. But in response to Ops like this one, it's a matter of fighting fire with fire.

That doesn't justify the act of bad faith and intellectual dishonesty in response. You're making an equivalence where there isn't one. The reason to think the afterlife is wishful thinking is all the powerful evidence against the afterlife and for wishful thinking. Much of psychology is a study in the great many ways that people fool themselves. Humans are highly credulous animals, so thorough skepticism requires self-doubt.

Say what evidence there is that the afterlife isn't wishful thinking. Don't just whine resentfully "You too!" at people.

 

[Lion IRC]

I'm only applying the standard used by atheists - on atheists.

And atheism is just another form of belief with respect to the God question. Atheology.

 

[abaddon]

If so, then is it an unjustified form of belief?

Or is just tossing "form of belief" out there supposed to be a criticism in itself?