Christians: what happens to the souls of unborn children that are aborted?

[Tigers!]

I'll bite.

If you want a clear cut biblical reference as the fate of the unborn I cannot give you that.
In 2 Sam 12:22-23 David notes that his very young son has died and that one day he will join him. (not quite unborn)
In Jer 1:5 the prophet notes that God knew him in the womb before he was born.

These 2 verses can suggest that God is interested in the unborn/very young.
Whether that also means they go straight to heaven I cannot tell you. I believe they will end up there but directly or not i do not know.

In that case, do you believe abortion is wrong?

Yes I do.

 

[Tigers!]

I'll bite.

If you want a clear cut biblical reference as the fate of the unborn I cannot give you that.
In 2 Sam 12:22-23 David notes that his very young son has died and that one day he will join him. (not quite unborn)
In Jer 1:5 the prophet notes that God knew him in the womb before he was born.

These 2 verses can suggest that God is interested in the unborn/very young.
Whether that also means they go straight to heaven I cannot tell you. I believe they will end up there but directly or not i do not know.

Are you sure David didn't mean he'd join his son...in the grave?

I thought early Hebrews didn't believe in an afterlife.

Sometimes the Biblical references can be obscure or ambiguous.
In Exodus 3:6 Moses was told that Jehovah (God) is the God of his fathers implying that were alive.
In Daniel 12:13 Daniel is told that he will die and rest but will rise to receive an inheritance.

In the earlier OT the concept was heaven was not as developed as in the NT but it was present.

 

[Tigers!]

I'll bite.

If you want a clear cut biblical reference as the fate of the unborn I cannot give you that.
In 2 Sam 12:22-23 David notes that his very young son has died and that one day he will join him. (not quite unborn)
In Jer 1:5 the prophet notes that God knew him in the womb before he was born.

These 2 verses can suggest that God is interested in the unborn/very young.
Whether that also means they go straight to heaven I cannot tell you. I believe they will end up there but directly or not i do not know.

Well, where else would they go? There's Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. They have to end up somewhere, so where would they be?

I do not have a definitive answer on how God handles the unborn or those who age or condition precludes them from a full acknowledgement but I believe he is a God of mercy and justice and will look after such persons appropriately.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, where else would they go? There's Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. They have to end up somewhere, so where would they be?

Well according to Revelation, no one's getting into Heaven until Judgment day. So mostly the dead are just sitting in their tombs, urns, coffins and shallow unmarked graves in my backyard.

Have you any more room in your backyard? i have a few bodies ........

 

[Brian63]

Well, where else would they go? There's Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. They have to end up somewhere, so where would they be?

I do not have a definitive answer on how God handles the unborn or those who age or condition precludes them from a full acknowledgement but I believe he is a God of mercy and justice and will look after such persons appropriately.

Tigers!, that answer you gave suggests that there is some standard of goodness (mercy and justice) that even the god adheres to, something that carries more authority than the god. If god did not do that activity then, would you agree that that renders your god as not doing good? Or would you say that "God is good" regardless of what the god does? That would render the word "good" meaningless then.

Have you ever heard of the Euthyphro dilemma? This is what it is.

Brian

 

[credoconsolans]

Earlier Catholics believed that you needed to be baptized into the Church in order to go to heaven, so I guess the earliest Christians either believed

1) fetuses (aborted or miscarried) weren't people and didn't have souls
or
2) all fetuses (aborted or miscarried) went to purgatory/hell

 

[PyramidHead]

Yes, but that wouldn't answer the Op

"Christians: what happens to the souls of unborn children that are aborted?
Do they go straight to heaven?"

"...yes, they go to heaven"

Christians: if that's true, why don't you support abortion?

WAIT WUT?
View attachment 9982

Well why don't you? A slack-jawed gape is a lazy way to meet a challenge to your beliefs. So tell me, what are the negative consequences of abortion if aborted fetuses simply spend an eternity in paradise in God's presence, when they would otherwise risk eternal damnation had they been born?

- - - Updated - - -

In that case, do you believe abortion is wrong?

Yes I do.

Do you think that the fate of unborn children who are aborted is probably worse than the fate of the average person who is born, lives, and dies?

 

[PyramidHead]

Dude, you stole my thunder! Anyway, that's the point. Christians have no reason to be against abortion. If the souls of the aborted go straight to heaven, all women should be getting pregnant and aborting just to increase the number of people experiencing an eternity of paradise. If the unborn don't have souls yet, then there's nothing wrong with killing them, because a soul is the essence of a person. Even limbo is supposed to be a place of happiness (or at least a place without pain) where they just learn about God until they are ready for heaven. The only reason for Christians to be against abortion is if they believe the unborn are condemned to hell. So, I ask Christians of this forum again: is this what you believe happens to the unborn, and if so why?

This is quite a logical fallacy you've got going on here.

There's lots of starving people - we should put them out of their misery?
Marriage is a good institution - we should let humans and animals get married?
All aborted babies go to heaven - we should abort all pregnancies?


Come on people. You can do better than this.

Those aren't examples of the kind of reasoning I'm using. If you could point out the logical flaw more specifically, we might get someplace. Here's the argument:

Foundational premises

P1 All aborted or miscarried fetuses have souls and go to heaven when they die.
P2 Heaven is infinitely better than anything that can be experienced on earth.
P3 After a baby is born and grows into an adult, there is a chance that it will go to hell instead of heaven after death.
P4 Hell is infinitely worse than anything that can be experienced on earth.

Stop me here if you want to dispute any of these premises.

Now, imagine a woman who is pregnant. She has exactly two choices: carry the pregnancy to term or get an abortion. Let's examine the consequences of each choice.

Choice A: the pregnancy is carried to term and the baby is born. The baby may grow into a pious Christian, but there is a significant chance that he will grow into someone who is not allowed into heaven after death. It doesn't matter how big or small the odds are, just that there is a non-zero probability that he will experience something worse than any known experience for all of eternity.

Choice B: the pregnancy is aborted. The soul of the unborn child is accepted into heaven, where he will experience an eternal joy better than anything imaginable. He is deprived of the experience of living a life on earth, but since heaven is infinitely better than all earthly experiences he will never suffer as a result of that deprivation. Therefore, we can discount the pleasures of life he would 'miss out' because they are vastly (infinitely) outweighed by heaven. Perhaps more importantly, he will never be at risk of the eternal suffering of hell; that possibility is completely closed for his soul.

I'm having trouble understanding why Choice B is anything other than the most fantastic gift that can ever be bestowed upon a human being. His soul is created at conception, and then without having to struggle through any of life's pains or running the risk of ending up in hell, he is immediately accepted into a place of infinite happiness and peace where he will remain forever. Could you point out where my reasoning is fallacious?

 

[blastula]

As I see it, all fetuses should be aborted so they go to heaven. However, the abortionist will go to hell, unless they are a saved Christian.

I have a question about these heaven babies. Will they remain stupid babies for eternity, or will they develop?

 

[Lion IRC]

The logic fail here is as follows;

Rapist : if I get this person pregnant I'm helping to create a new life. That's a good thing.
Victim : But I'm already pregnant.

Robber : I'm stealing your money for a good cause.
Victim : But that money was going to starving kids.

Murderer : if I kill you you will go straight to heaven.
Victim : wait, I want to help you go straight to heaven too

This is the fallacy of ends justifies the means but in this case the means is at cross purposes with the stated end. And if one person going to heaven is a good thing then two people going to heaven is twice as good.

But if the abortionist goes to hell and the unborn baby goes to heaven the (supposed) good of one person going to heaven is cancelled out by someone else needlessly going to hell.

Unborn babies can go to heaven without being killed in the womb.

 

[blastula]

Aborting them guarantees their salvation. Allowing them to be born is too great a risk, since it's their eternal soul at stake. Think of the fetuses, not yourself.


And the abortionist will also be saved if they are a Christian. It's a good deal.

 

[PyramidHead]

The logic fail here is as follows;

Rapist : if I get this person pregnant I'm helping to create a new life. That's a good thing.
Victim : But I'm already pregnant.

Robber : I'm stealing your money for a good cause.
Victim : But that money was going to starving kids.

Murderer : if I kill you you will go straight to heaven.
Victim : wait, I want to help you go straight to heaven too

As before, I can't make heads or tails of what you're trying to say. Which of my premises is false, and which of my inferences from those premises is invalid, specifically?

This is the fallacy of ends justifies the means but in this case the means is at cross purposes with the stated end. And if one person going to heaven is a good thing then two people going to heaven is twice as good.

But if the abortionist goes to hell and the unborn baby goes to heaven the (supposed) good of one person going to heaven is cancelled out by someone else needlessly going to hell.

Why would the abortionist go to hell? That seems to assume the very thing we are arguing about, which is the wrongness of abortion. If an aborted fetus' soul goes straight to heaven, then why is abortion the kind of thing that sends people to hell if they do it? Aren't you doing the unborn child a huge favor by guaranteeing their eternal bliss, as opposed to gambling on the chance that they live a good life as an adult? Why would God send a person who provides a soul with infinite happiness to hell?

Unborn babies can go to heaven without being killed in the womb.

But that's not the point. While in the womb, they are guaranteed a place in heaven. That's a rare opportunity, and one that doesn't last long after the baby is born and grows into a person who is responsible for his actions. Why is it ever wrong to spare someone the peril of eternal damnation?

 

[Keith&Co.]

As before, I can't make heads or tails of what you're trying to say. Which of my premises is false, and which of my inferences from those premises is invalid, specifically?

The only problem with your logic is that it leads to an undesirable conclusion. This is a problem for people who start their logical processes with the conclusion and work their way backwards to the evidence or argument that supports it.
So such a person can't really deal with your premise until they get you to agree to their opinion of the conclusion. From there, the problem with your premise should come into focus.

 

[Tigers!]

I do not have a definitive answer on how God handles the unborn or those who age or condition precludes them from a full acknowledgement but I believe he is a God of mercy and justice and will look after such persons appropriately.

Tigers!, that answer you gave suggests that there is some standard of goodness (mercy and justice) that even the god adheres to, something that carries more authority than the god. If god did not do that activity then, would you agree that that renders your god as not doing good? Or would you say that "God is good" regardless of what the god does? That would render the word "good" meaningless then.

Have you ever heard of the Euthyphro dilemma? This is what it is.

Brian

I first heard of the Euthyphro Dilemma about 35 years ago so I am familiar with it. If God himself is the standard then it appears to be no dilemma at all.

 

[Tigers!]

Earlier Catholics believed that you needed to be baptized into the Church in order to go to heaven, so I guess the earliest Christians either believed

1) fetuses (aborted or miscarried) weren't people and didn't have souls
or
2) all fetuses (aborted or miscarried) went to purgatory/hell

or
3) the earlier christians were not earlier catholics so any such comparison is misleading

It is known that early Christians c. 2nd-3rd C. when out into the streets and fields, woods to gather up the abandoned children and infants. So it sis not such a stretch for them to look after mothers before the birth to look after mother & child.

- - - Updated - - -

Well why don't you? A slack-jawed gape is a lazy way to meet a challenge to your beliefs. So tell me, what are the negative consequences of abortion if aborted fetuses simply spend an eternity in paradise in God's presence, when they would otherwise risk eternal damnation had they been born?

- - - Updated - - -

In that case, do you believe abortion is wrong?

Yes I do.

Do you think that the fate of unborn children who are aborted is probably worse than the fate of the average person who is born, lives, and dies?

Does the end justify the means?

 

[Tigers!]

I have a question about these heaven babies. Will they remain stupid babies for eternity, or will they develop?

That is an interesting question that I too have pondered over the years.
Again there is no biblical text that explicitly mentions such.
We are told that we will receive an heavenly body similar to but different to our earthly bodies. Wwe are also told that we will recognise others, worship God and serve him which cannot be done by infants. So IMHO in heaven we will have a body that is complete in every way i.e. the frailties of earth with aches, pains, weak eyes, weak hearing etc. will be good. We will have an adult body but what equivalent age I have no idea.

 

[Tigers!]

Aborting them guarantees their salvation. Allowing them to be born is too great a risk, since it's their eternal soul at stake. Think of the fetuses, not yourself.

There are 3 persons involved in the abortion process - the unborn person, the mother and the abortionist. For one it is most probably a good deal but for the 2 adults not so good. tragically they have taken a life. I think of more than just the fetus.

 

[Lion IRC]

If unborn babies go to heaven anyway why do they need to be murdered?

 

[Brian63]

I first heard of the Euthyphro Dilemma about 35 years ago so I am familiar with it. If God himself is the standard then it appears to be no dilemma at all.

Right, then morality appears to be a matter of chance and luck. If the god that created our universe happened to favor planting car bombs in strangers' cars and told us to do so, then we would be obligated to do so. If the god favored poisoning the drinking water of nearby hospitals in order to gruesomely kill their sick patients and told us to do so, then we would be obligated to do so. What we humans desire, what we favor, what we approve of, what we view as moral and ethical, etc. is irrelevant. Our only role would be to do whatever the god commands us to do. Obey, obey, obey.

In terms of ethics then, it really is a good thing such a vicious god creature does not exist and cannot hurt us for disobeying it. We as a human species will determine our own fate, not some power-hungry and authority-driven psychopathic monster of a god.

Brian

- - - Updated - - -

If unborn babies go to heaven anyway why do they need to be murdered?

In terms of Christian beliefs, to ensure that they are unborn, and never get born (which would put them at risk of going to hell).

In reality, sometimes unborn babies threaten the lives of the would-be mothers, so the fetus needs to be terminated to save the mother. There may be other reasons as well.

Brian

 

[Sarpedon]

Hmmm, maybe you are looking at this wrong:

When a soul goes to heaven, it is stripped of its imperfections. What are we, besides our imperfections? Perhaps there is no difference between a cleansed soul in heaven and a soul that never was born.

Of course, that raises the question of why be born at all?

 

[Frikki]

In that case, do you believe abortion is wrong?

Yes I do.

Are you Catholic?