Christians - who convinced you of the truth of god/jesus?

[DBT]

What reason is there to believe? The hope of Eternal Life? Salvation?

 

[Learner]

I got soul.

You got it, you got it
You got it, you got it

I know you got soul
If you didn't, you wouldn't be in here
I know you got soul
If you didn't, you wouldn't be in here

I know you got soul
If you didn't, you wouldn't shake that thing
Shake it with the beat
'Cause it make me sing

I know you got soul
If you didn't, you wouldn't be in here
I know you got the feeling
The way you move over there

I just needed a break from the stupid claims of Christians, so I'm going to go shake that thing while listening to some soul, the only soul I know. But, I do love how some Christians cherry pick the nicer parts of their book, while ignoring all the hateful, vengeful things that their pretend diety did, like turning a woman into a pillar of salt, trying to get some guy to kill his own son, and then saying, Just kidding, I wanted to see if you'd really do it.

Two witnesses, posts above and below.

Sadly, a lot of Christians are what I refer to as OT Christians as they seem to cherry pick the most horrible things in the OT and forget about the better things in the NT. We seem to have lots of those OT types running the US right now.

It seems we may have something in "common" by the looks of your two posts shown above. Although, I must "concede" and acknowledge your method for 'picking and choosing' is a little .more advanced. than Christians. You can pick and choose both representations of Christians picking and choosing as illustrated in the above quoted posts....I suppose this would be depending how you feel on the day or the context of argument one wants to portray.

Two opposite versions of Christians "picking and choosing ". If responding to either of the statements I would just put it down to... both statements would just simply Cancel each other out - along with related arguments that derive from them, especially....when
any argument from either "picking and choosing". statement....
...stems from the one same individual!

I suppose "to be fair.'..if you can do a portrayal of Christians picking and choosing both ways then I "believe" atheists can also do miracles.

Then there's all those populations that were wiped out and threats of eternal torture. Nice god ya got there.

I mentioned in a previous post about hell, I am a Christian that doesn't follow the belief of the 'One Fits All eternal punishment'.
Technically...eternal torture is still eternal life.

Burning in hell forever? It is written: Hell is thrown into the Lake if Fire . That means being Burned Up forever...and does not mean hell and those in it are burning forever.

And all those miracles their Jesus did, like feeding lots of people with five loafs of bread and two fish. Do you take that stuff literally or what?

I take miracles to be literal.

We believe only Jesus was the one to do it.

Btw, I do donate food every week to a food pantry by that name, but it's only because I care about the poor and want to help them. Why not just believe in being a good person to the best of your ability without any silly supernatural fairy tales? Why is your belief so fucking important?

We don't feel we need to believe just anything that "takes our fancy" nor because it't about being "trendy", and "we want to be seen to do good".

It would absolutely be important.. especially if we believe Jesus actually did these miracles!

It would be interesting to see how you compare and list side by side the comparisons of fairy tales to the bible?.

Mine isn't as important as my behavior. I don't need any fairy tales to be a good person. I'm just lucky to be able to share what I have and love others, especially other animals. God doesn't feed the birds. I do and so my backyard is Bird Nation. My dogs are my little gods, the most loving, forgiving animals in the world. I'm lucky that my genetic and environmental influences allow me to do be kind and caring.

If the bible is true (to the believers). The believers who have had no other way to change for the better - to change their ways from doing the opposite to what you described of yourself as caring...these people absolutely needed this faith!

And, some of you need to learn more about the other animals. Dogs understand fairness. Birds have a lot in common with humans. Elephants grieve when they lose a member of their family or group. There are many animals who have moral values and I'd rather be a bonobo than a chimp. Matriarchies tend to be less violent and more loving. Humans are the worst species that ever evolved. We destroying our own habitats and the animals that we depend on, like bees and birds that pollinate some of the food we eat. Ok. Enough. Sorry for the long rant.

Overall...we need to be more loving.

Yeah that's what we always got from Jesus' by his teachings.It was written there existing in front of our eyes for thousands of years!

Look, if you need some mythology in your life, I don't judge you for that. I have lots of nice Christians friends and most know that I'm an atheist. I just don't understand how people believe in myths in the modern world. I have met 3 atheists who also identified as Methodists. I guess they were in it for the social contacts and opportunities to do charity work.

Have a good day! Have fun arguing.

Christians don't need mythologies in their lives. Believing something we know to be false would be incorrect by your particular language .

In our paradigm of course ...Jesus is real!

 

[southernhybrid]

@Learner Well, I'll give you credit for trying, but just because you believe something to be true, doesn't make it true. Or as Neil deGrasse Tyson said, "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." Of course with new evidence science changes. I've never seen that happen with religious beliefs although religious people do all seem to have their own interpretations of their holy books.

As far as I'm concerned all religious beliefs are mythology. As far as I know, mythology goes back to the rise of humanity. I guess humans have always tried to design gods to fit their needs, to help explain their purpose, to develop a moral code and to create societies etc. But, religious mythology has also been the greatest cause of division, hatred and war. No. I'm not saying that all religious people are immoral, but religion can go in either negative or positive directions.

And, while it's not that important to me whether or not an actual Jesus ever existed. I read an interesting article about a week or so ago that claimed there is no historical evidence that such a person ever existed. I have a friend who finds this a very interesting topic, but to me, it's not that important. If Jesus was real, I imagine he was a charismatic person who had some idealistic moral values to use to influence people. The rest is made up nonsense imo. I do agree with you that the world needs more love, or as the old soul song says, "What the world needs now, is love, sweet love, that's the only thing that there's just too little of"......The question is, how do we make humans love each other and make this world a better place? We've never found an answer to that question and looking at the world today, it appears as if we never will. As we old hippies used to say: "Peace, love and happiness to all". We thought we could change the world but sadly we were wrong.

 

[steve_bank]

Religion is either correct or incorrect in a broad sense. It filled a human need.

Why are we here? Is there a purpose? And so on. We are plagued with an imagination coupled with speech and language.

Back to philosophy of science. To me science is neither true nor false, there are repeatable experiments.


Religion and magic have no repeatable experiments. A tradition says if you repeat abracadabra three times a genie will appear.

According to interpretations of the bible time line god created the Earth 3000 years ago, or so. The overwhelming evidence rejects that claim.

In a Catholic mass he priest has the magic power to turn bread and wine into boddy and blood of Jesus which is eaten. Ritual cannibalism.

There may have been a singular Jesus character, I have come to see the gospels as a conflation of multiple people and events.

Learner's proof is in taking the gospels as first hand factual journalistic reporting,

Religion is called a faith, one believes in that which can not be proven. An eternal spirit will live forever in a glorious heaven.

 

[bilby]

The question is, how do we make humans love each other and make this world a better place?

...and the answer, observably, doesn't lie in religion. Religion makes people more, not less, tribalistic.

Using religion to achieve peaceful coexistence and harmony is about as practical and sensible as trying to solve football hooliganism by persuading everyone on Earth to passionately support the same team.

 

[bilby]

The original purpose of religion seems to have been to try to control our environment.

If your crops are washed away and your children starve, you can try to do something to stop it happening again - maybe build a levee. Next year, there's a drought and your children starve, so you might try building a water storage. The year after that, your crops are just ready to harvest, when millions of beetles turn up and eat the lot, and your children starve. You can just shrug and say "such is life"; But really, if you were the kind to accept your fate, you would have died in year one.

So you set out to do something. But you don't know how any of this stuff works. Water obviously flows downhill, but what makes it rain? And where the fuck did all those beetles come from?? So you make some shit up, to give at least the comforting illusion that something you do might possibly help.

Nobody knows why it rains too much one year, or why it doesn't rain at all the next. But perhaps if you perform the right rituals, whatever it is that makes that call can be persuaded to stop trying to kill your children.

And humans love them some confirmation bias; Footballers put their socks on in a fixed order, because they did it that way the day they won the cup, and they don't want to jinx themselves by doing it the other way, just in case that's why they won.

So you try to please the rain gods, and that year you get a bumper harvest. Now you know that you are not powerless; You can do something about the bad weather, and if it doesn't work next year, you know you didn't do it quite right this time.

Actually, when you think about it, you did it exactly right, but that heathen next door did something completely different in his effort to please the rain gods. I bet if you killed him, his blood would please the rain gods next year. It's got to be worth a try...

 

[DBT]

The question is, how do we make humans love each other and make this world a better place?

...and the answer, observably, doesn't lie in religion. Religion makes people more, not less, tribalistic.

Using religion to achieve peaceful coexistence and harmony is about as practical and sensible as trying to solve football hooliganism by persuading everyone on Earth to passionately support the same team.

We have had religion for a very long time, yet no lasting peace. If it hasn't happened by now.....

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Look, if you need some mythology in your life, I don't judge you for that. I have lots of nice Christians friends and most know that I'm an atheist. I just don't understand how people believe in myths in the modern world. I have met 3 atheists who also identified as Methodists. I guess they were in it for the social contacts and opportunities to do charity work.

Have a good day! Have fun arguing.

Christians don't need mythologies in their lives. Believing something we know to be false would be incorrect by your particular language .One definition of "myth" is "a widely held but false belief or idea".

One definition myth is: "a widely held but false belief or idea." It's not necessitated someone has to know the belief or idea to be false. It could even be argued the definition of myth believers often use, to pretend you have to already know the myth is false even though you don't, at all, is itself a myth.

 

[ideologyhunter]

....The question is, how do we make humans love each other and make this world a better place? We've never found an answer to that question and looking at the world today, it appears as if we never will. As we old hippies used to say: "Peace, love and happiness to all". We thought we could change the world but sadly we were wrong.

Agreed. Our species so often sucks in the aggregate. Our report card should state, "Tries hard. Needs to improve in conduct."
We cured polio and smallpox, did away with most childhood leukemia deaths, but continue to wage war and so often treat the 'others,' the out group, like animals.
There are examples of altruistic government actions -- I had to google to add to the few I could think of:
slave trade suppression -- the Brits did this forcefully in the 19th century, after they had already ended slavery in the UK
foreign disaster relief
Peace Corps (still around, but a rather feeble shadow of their early days)
USAID -- dead as of last year, when the world's richest man helped kill the world's poorest people

Nationalism and religion have both aggravated the problem of so-called inhumanity (shouldn't it be called proto-humanity or default humanity?)
We old hippies now understand that the perfect world isn't achievable, but that good will and positive action and decent behavior are powerful in the individual situation. There, the examples are without number.

 

[southernhybrid]

Look, if you need some mythology in your life, I don't judge you for that. I have lots of nice Christians friends and most know that I'm an atheist. I just don't understand how people believe in myths in the modern world. I have met 3 atheists who also identified as Methodists. I guess they were in it for the social contacts and opportunities to do charity work.

Have a good day! Have fun arguing.

Christians don't need mythologies in their lives. Believing something we know to be false would be incorrect by your particular language .One definition of "myth" is "a widely held but false belief or idea".

One definition myth is: "a widely held but false belief or idea." It's not necessitated someone has to know the belief or idea to be false. It could even be argued the definition of myth believers often use, to pretend you have to already know the myth is false even though you don't, at all, is itself a myth.

Yeah, that pretty much explains it. The problem is that religious people see their beliefs as truth, but they aren't true. They are based on faith, a desire for something greater then themselves, the need to think there is an afterlife where they will be reunited with family and friends and now even pets have been included. Just because a person believes something is true, doesn't make it true. Religious mythology has been around for a very long time. Most of us were taught about Greek and Roman gods and the mythology that was considered true back in those times, when we were in junior high or high school, but we were never told that the other gods that people currently believe in are also mythology. Whatever floats your boat, as long as it's harmless and makes you a better person. Sadly, it's not always harmless.

 

[Learner]

Look, if you need some mythology in your life, I don't judge you for that. I have lots of nice Christians friends and most know that I'm an atheist. I just don't understand how people believe in myths in the modern world. I have met 3 atheists who also identified as Methodists. I guess they were in it for the social contacts and opportunities to do charity work.

Have a good day! Have fun arguing.

Christians don't need mythologies in their lives. Believing something we know to be false would be incorrect by your particular language .One definition of "myth" is "a widely held but false belief or idea".

One definition myth is: "a widely held but false belief or idea." It's not necessitated someone has to know the belief or idea to be false. I

Indeed.
...however, in regards to the biblical faith...between me and you (plural). I don't think we can have that particular dialogue as being on the 'same page' using common terms of perspective IF we are not going to agree on the "myth" notion as being an accurate term being applied to the bible.

t could even be argued the definition of myth believers often use, to pretend you have to already know the myth is false even though you don't, at all, is itself a myth.

We can define with a little more clarity how religions and their authors stand when put side by side.

It is a myth and erroneous as a belief itself to think that ALL religions of faith are identical if one is said and shown to be false.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Christian claims are all over the place, from the inerrantists to very loosely 'spiritual' congregations. But, if a religion can be "said and shown to be false" -- what does that even mean, in this discussion? The Bible has been said and shown to be full of error and internal contradictions. The four canonized gospels have numerous contradictions in telling the life of Jesus: year of his birth, order of events in his ministry, date of his death, time of his death, his last words, reports of the resurrection. The most basic events, that are meant to create a faith claim, are not related harmoniously, and I'm striving to put that nicely.

 

[Learner]

Christian claims are all over the place, from the inerrantists to very loosely 'spiritual' congregations.

There are people 'all over the place' who call themselves Christian - quite a few introduce ideas that may not actually be biblical.

Yup, there are people who also distort the Christian narratives, just to fit their personal agenda using the guise of Christianity.

Atheists who I have seen engage in honest discussions, and debates, often point out issues when Christians don't do Christian things, being opposite to what the bible teaches etc

As 'irony would have it', these atheists seem to get the gist of the common concept of Christianity,..
...even more so than those Christians who sometimes introduce foreign practices or ideas to add for their own personal gain.

But, if a religion can be "said and shown to be false" -- what does that even mean, in this discussion? The Bible has been said and shown to be full of error and internal contradictions.

These "errors", I would trust are debatable...as per theist v atheist.

I was wondering 'in the previous discussion: how you (plural) compared fairy tales to the bible with each issue and it's authors side by side?

What is the uniqueness between all religions side by side?

The four canonized gospels have numerous contradictions in telling the life of Jesus: year of his birth, order of events in his ministry, date of his death, time of his death, his last words, reports of the resurrection.

What dates of Jesus' birth was claimed?

The differences between four Gospels should be noted as important - in terms thst indicates four different perspective view points. Identical witness accounts almost word for word statements being heard in a court would be considered to be quite suspicious.

The most basic events, that are meant to create a faith claim, are not related harmoniously, and I'm striving to put that nicely.

The fact that the all the Gospels were not all written by 4 of the 12 disciples instead...should make you wonder and ponder on the psychology behind the plan that is trying to convince the masses (I did).

A simple example of oddity: If one is going to be smart trying to convince the masses...why are there apparently "contradictions" (as you see it)?

' Why throughout the chain of successors of the church did they 'still leave them in there' even when the early successors of the church may have been puzzled themselves?

Where these "contradictions" left there.. because the authors of the NT ARE who they are said to be! .Therefore giving a reason for restraint for each successor of the church from altering ot correcting these so-called contradictions? IOW, keeping truthful to the texts, including accrediting the names to the authors . regardless of how "conflicting" it may sound and look


(It's late, I'm just about to fall asleep)

 

[ideologyhunter]

The four canonized gospels have numerous contradictions in telling the life of Jesus: year of his birth, order of events in his ministry, date of his death, time of his death, his last words, reports of the resurrection.

What dates of Jesus' birth was claimed?

There is (at least) a ten year discrepancy in the birth year as given in Matthew and Luke.
Matthew says it was during the reign of Herod the Great (R.I.P. in 4 B.C.) but Luke ties it to the census of Quirinius (6 A.D.)
Not a big deal for me, obviously.
A huge deal for some Christians, who have invented all kinds of apologetical contortions to reconcile the accounts.