Chronicles in Post Racial America: Bus Fare Violations

[Nice Squirrel]

so-called "native" Americans.

Go on.

 

[Derec]

so-called "native" Americans.

Go on.

It's a PC term for "feather" Indians. It's used to imply they somehow have greater right to be here (and thus deserve privileges before the law and numerous tax exemptions) because "everybody else has come from elsewhere". Well, they came from elsewhere too (contrary to Indian creationism), mostly Siberia. So if you want to be pedantic, you can call them Siberian-Americans.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Go on.

"feather" Indians

Be careful. You obviously are unaware of the delicacies of tribal politics.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Go on.

It's a PC term for "feather" Indians. It's used to imply they somehow have greater right to be here (and thus deserve privileges before the law and numerous tax exemptions) because "everybody else has come from elsewhere". Well, they came from elsewhere too (contrary to Indian creationism), mostly Siberia. So if you want to be pedantic, you can call them Siberian-Americans.

And if you want to be petulant, you can make that quoted post and entirely ignore the subject of the thread.

But while we are along Derec's latest derail, it wouldn't be a bad idea to bring up the Indian schools where children were taken from their families, robbed of their culture, and taught that they'd be capable nothing more than rudimentary labor (up until roughly the 1960s). The crimes against the native population in the US dates well past the 1800's.

 

[Trausti]

Go on.

It's a PC term for "feather" Indians. It's used to imply they somehow have greater right to be here (and thus deserve privileges before the law and numerous tax exemptions) because "everybody else has come from elsewhere". Well, they came from elsewhere too (contrary to Indian creationism), mostly Siberia. So if you want to be pedantic, you can call them Siberian-Americans.

Heh. Or just call them the first Euro-Americans. Europeans and Amerindians are more closely related than you might have thought.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131120-science-native-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/

http://www.spiegel.de/international/dna-analysis-shows-native-americans-had-european-roots-a-954675.html

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't see why we can't just call them Indians and then have those assholes from India come up with a new name for themselves so they'll stop confusing us.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Once again we have the assumption that a disparate outcome means discrimination.

In a case like this how you deal with the police makes a big difference in the outcome.

 

[Trausti]

Once again we have the assumption that a disparate outcome means discrimination.

In a case like this how you deal with the police makes a big difference in the outcome.

I view it as a symptom of the poor reasoning skills so prevalent in our times. It reminds me of Richard Feynman's admonition against bad science.

http://www.californiachaparral.com/images/CargoCult.pdf

 

[laughing dog]

Once again we have the assumption that a disparate outcome means discrimination. [

In a case like this how you deal with the police makes a big difference in the outcome.

Once again, we have the assumption about that disparate outcome means disparate behavior from the ABR^TM crowd.

 

[Trausti]

Once again we have the assumption that a disparate outcome means discrimination. [

In a case like this how you deal with the police makes a big difference in the outcome.

Once again, we have the assumption about that disparate outcome means disparate behavior from the ABR^TM crowd.

So one assumption is to be taken more seriously than the other? Why?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Once again we have the assumption that a disparate outcome means discrimination.

In a case like this how you deal with the police makes a big difference in the outcome.

Loren,

Can you have discrimination WITHOUT disparate outcomes?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Once again we have the assumption that a disparate outcome means discrimination.

In a case like this how you deal with the police makes a big difference in the outcome.

I suppose they should be happy that they weren't shot.

So are Native Americans more likely to mouth off to the cops? That should be easy to prove based on your statement.

- - - Updated - - -

Once again we have the assumption that a disparate outcome means discrimination.

In a case like this how you deal with the police makes a big difference in the outcome.

Loren,

Can you have discrimination WITHOUT disparate outcomes?

LP means to say the arrest rate was much higher amongst Native Americans because they must have deserved it due to how they interacted with the Police. I'm sure Loren can support that claim.

 

[laughing dog]

I suppose they should be happy that they weren't shot.

So are Native Americans more likely to mouth off to the cops? That should be easy to prove based on your statement.

- - - Updated - - -

Once again we have the assumption that a disparate outcome means discrimination.

In a case like this how you deal with the police makes a big difference in the outcome.

Loren,

Can you have discrimination WITHOUT disparate outcomes?

LP means to say the arrest rate was much higher amongst Native Americans because they must have deserved it due to how they interacted with the Police. I'm sure Loren can support that claim.

It is probably due to their thug lifestyle.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I suppose they should be happy that they weren't shot.

So are Native Americans more likely to mouth off to the cops? That should be easy to prove based on your statement.

- - - Updated - - -

Once again we have the assumption that a disparate outcome means discrimination.

In a case like this how you deal with the police makes a big difference in the outcome.

Loren,

Can you have discrimination WITHOUT disparate outcomes?

LP means to say the arrest rate was much higher amongst Native Americans because they must have deserved it due to how they interacted with the Police. I'm sure Loren can support that claim.

It is probably due to their thug lifestyle.

Man, they are thuggier than the blacks, apparently 6x thuggier.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

 

[Derec]

Can you have discrimination WITHOUT disparate outcomes?

Yes, since you can have disparate outcomes without discrimination, obviously you can have the reverse. If the amount of discrimination is equal and opposite to non-discrimination disparate outcome then you can enforce equal outcome through discrimination.

For example, mandating a quota equal to population share would be such discrimination.

 

[bilby]

You've already been told that Tom Sawyer cited something that indicated that first time offenders who were NA were more likely to be arrested for a first time offense. And you are still talking about the OP article. Please let me know when you bother to address the additional information, so I stop wasting my time responding to you.

Btw, I wonder how hysterically Athena would react in Germany - the German word for fare evader is "Schwarzfahrer", literally "black rider", just like workers employed "under the table" are called "Schwarzarbeiter" (black worker).

Derec, I could only wish to have your level of class.

It's not available in stores; but you might be able to get some on the black market.

 

[Metaphor]

How in the world would the police be able to determine who has an ACTUAL rate of fare evasion from their arrest data?

An actual rate isn't important: is there a differential rate of fare evasion?

The OP implies that there is something discriminatory going on, but since we don't know whether the base rates differ and by how much, how can you reach that conclusion?

More importantly, why would anyone think that any particular group (racial or otherwise) would have such a radically higher rate of fare evasion to warrant a 93% difference?

A 'particular' group? Why wouldn't you think there'd be differences, possibly very large differences?

Do you think 16 year olds evade fares more or less than 40 year olds?

Now, if you lived in Minnesota for any length of time, you'd have noticed there is significant animosity/resentment against Native Americans from the white residents.

The article is hopeless at giving us details.

When ticket inspectors do their job, do they inspect everyone on the bus? Do they inspect randomly? Do they inspect 'randomly' in a way that they could exercise discrimination in how they choose?

How are warnings, citations, and arrests managed? What are the rules? Can the inspecting officer just decide on the spot? If they could just decide with almost complete discretion then I think there's probably quite a big problem.

EDIT: I see there's been additional details made available which talk about the arrest rates for 'first time' violators. Now, it certainly does seem to me that there's no obvious reason first time violators of different races should have differential arrest rates, unless their reaction to being given a citation/warning warrants being arrested (e.g. personally abusive or violent).

I recall a woman being ticketed for riding a tram without swiping on, and she was very hostile to the inspecting officer. It started with protestations of innocence (oh, I just forgot, I was busy) to loud sledging (you were eyeing me as I came on? How does your job make you feel? You eye people all day, while real criminals go free, etc, etc, etc).

I felt like saying to the fare evader, quite publically, "listen, you evaded the fare, you know it, the fare inspector knows it, I know it, the whole fucking tram knows it, so stop pretending you've been hard done by and stop abusing someone who actually has an important job of making sure scum like you doesn't make public transport more expensive than it needs to be".

 

[Tom Sawyer]

How are warnings, citations, and arrests managed? What are the rules? Can the inspecting officer just decide on the spot? If they could just decide with almost complete discretion then I think there's probably quite a big problem.

That would seem to be the problem and, hence, the reason for the rule change limiting this discretion.

 

[Metaphor]

"This study tells me that we have a problem," said Metro Transit Police Chief John Harrington, who admitted he "doesn't have an easy or facile explanation how this happens." Of the 100 full-time Metro Transit police officers, 35 percent are considered "diverse," up from 5 percent just a few years ago.

Holy shit. No person is 'diverse'. Diversity is an emergent quality from the differences that arise between people or things. A white person is not 'diverse'. A black person is not 'diverse'. An Asian is not 'diverse'. People are whatever race they are, they are not fucking 'diverse'.

Adam Duininck, chair of the Metropolitan Council, said the "disparity numbers are not acceptable and are something we need to fix."

Why did you quote this second story as if it shed any additional light? It doesn't. It tells us nothing new. It doesn't tell us how many first time violators got arrested or cited or warned.