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Cohen claims Trump knew in advance of 2016 Trump Tower meeting

Opoponax

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https://www.cnn.com


Michael Cohen, President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, claims that then-candidate Trump knew in advance about the June 2016 meeting in Trump Tower in which Russians were expected to offer his campaign dirt on Hillary Clinton, sources with knowledge tell CNN. Cohen is willing to make that assertion to special counsel Robert Mueller, the sources said.

Cohen's claim would contradict repeated denials by Trump, Donald Trump Jr., their lawyers and other administration officials who have said that the President knew nothing about the Trump Tower meeting until he was approached about it by The New York Times in July 2017.
Cohen alleges that he was present, along with several others, when Trump was informed of the Russians' offer by Trump Jr. By Cohen's account, Trump approved going ahead with the meeting with the Russians, according to sources.

This is a "No shit Sherlock" story, but it's Yuuuuge, Bigly, Tremendous, Beautiful "No Shit Sherlock."

The only thing holding me back from fully celebrating is that while it's on most outlets, CBS and ABC haven't put it up on their sites, so this may remain to be seen.

But good god, I would love this, especially in midsummer.
 
https://www.cnn.com


Michael Cohen, President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, claims that then-candidate Trump knew in advance about the June 2016 meeting in Trump Tower in which Russians were expected to offer his campaign dirt on Hillary Clinton, sources with knowledge tell CNN. Cohen is willing to make that assertion to special counsel Robert Mueller, the sources said.

Cohen's claim would contradict repeated denials by Trump, Donald Trump Jr., their lawyers and other administration officials who have said that the President knew nothing about the Trump Tower meeting until he was approached about it by The New York Times in July 2017.
Cohen alleges that he was present, along with several others, when Trump was informed of the Russians' offer by Trump Jr. By Cohen's account, Trump approved going ahead with the meeting with the Russians, according to sources.

This is a "No shit Sherlock" story, but it's Yuuuuge, Bigly, Tremendous, Beautiful "No Shit Sherlock."

The only thing holding me back from fully celebrating is that while it's on most outlets, CBS and ABC haven't put it up on their sites, so this may remain to be seen.

But good god, I would love this, especially in midsummer.

Fake news! Cohen never said that because CNN is biased! They aren't even Fair and Balanced[ent]trade[/ent]!!!!!!! Deep state conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/traitor]
 
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I fear this whole aspect of the story is a false flag/red herring orchestrated by Putin to throw off the scent. This whole thing started in Moscow 2013 and Trump’s involvement in Russian intelligence much earlier (eighties and/or seventies). This is meant to offer the son as a sacrifice and the father as an unwitting, but loving patriarch.
 
The trouble is Cohen has no evidence to support his claim... unless he can describe a meeting in detail where the info was discussed and Mueller has a second witness to cooberate that meeting's details.
If only the Democrats believed in anything.
That thinking got us into this crap in the first place. Yeah, Democrats are Corporation beholden politicians, but they also appoint justices that believe in Civil Rights.
 
The trouble is Cohen has no evidence to support his claim... unless he can describe a meeting in detail where the info was discussed and Mueller has a second witness to cooberate that meeting's details.

In terms of a federal courtroom, his testimony is evidence. First, it's clearly relevant to whether Trump knew about the meeting beforehand. Second it's more probative than prejudicial in that rather than misleading the trier of fact or confusing any issues, it serves to clarify the most important issue as to Trump himself. Third, Cohen has personal, firsthand knowledge of the occurrence.

That gets you through the first several steps of admissible testimony. The next issue is hearsay.

Assuming that Cohen was there when Trump agreed to the meeting, or that Trump personally communicated this information to Cohen, there are multiple exceptions and non-hearsay statements that could overcome the rule against hearsay: statement by a party (or statement by a party opponent), a statement against interests (penal or pecuniary), a statement by a co-conspirator, prior inconsistent statement, etc. If Cohen then took some action based on Trump's statement then there's what's called "effect on the listener." If Trump made mention of speaking with e.g. Trump Jr. after the meeting then it shows present state of mind where intent or plan is involved.

There's no requirement that witness testimony needs independent corroboration here. There are narrow circumstances under which some testimony under certain circumstances must have corroborative support, but this is not one of them.

So then we go to impeachment. Cohen could be impeached like a motherfucker for dishonesty. That is, any attorney would be able to cast doubt on Cohen's credibility as a witness, primarily by showing bias (e.g. you're doing this to save your own ass, to exact revenge, to Whatever). And one way or another, all the stuff he's in trouble for now would also come in even though the general rule is that prior specific acts are not admissible to show character in conformity with conduct in federal case unless character is directly in issue. To be clear, when a witness takes the stand, their credibility is always in issue, but not their character--there's a difference. Credibility goes to truthfulness, while character goes to showing that the witness acted in conformity on the occasion in question as they have in the past under similar circumstances.

What it would come down to is the proponent attorney rehabilitating Cohen after cross examination and seeing to it that even though Cohen's a sleaze-ball, his testimony on this issue is credible.

So the bottom line here is not corroboration. It's certainly helpful, but it's not necessary.

After all that, this isn't about what will happen in a courtroom. What it's about is whether Mueller can effectively use this as part of a case to proffer that criminal activity was afoot with respect to a conspiracy to commit illegal acts. Thus, he would indeed have to take into consideration all of the above (and more) before suggesting that this would be a case worth trying. It's quite reasonable and probable, assuming Cohen was willing to testify, that Cohen would be an important witness in the prosecutor's case in chief.
 
The trouble is Cohen has no evidence to support his claim... unless he can describe a meeting in detail where the info was discussed and Mueller has a second witness to cooberate that meeting's details.
If only the Democrats believed in anything.
That thinking got us into this crap in the first place. Yeah, Democrats are Corporation beholden politicians, but they also appoint justices that believe in Civil Rights.

What got us into this was the Democrats not believing in anything.

They have very little appeal.

Personalities like Obama and Bill Clinton can temporarily rise to the top but the party is the minority party because they have no coherent alternative message.
 
The trouble is Cohen has no evidence to support his claim... unless he can describe a meeting in detail where the info was discussed and Mueller has a second witness to cooberate that meeting's details.
If only the Democrats believed in anything.
That thinking got us into this crap in the first place. Yeah, Democrats are Corporation beholden politicians, but they also appoint justices that believe in Civil Rights.

What got us into this was the Democrats not believing in anything.

They have very little appeal.

Personalities like Obama and Bill Clinton can temporarily rise to the top but the party is the minority party because they have no coherent alternative message.

Oh the dems believe in a lot of things. The party is in a transformative state between the old guard and the newer.
 
The trouble is Cohen has no evidence to support his claim... unless he can describe a meeting in detail where the info was discussed and Mueller has a second witness to cooberate that meeting's details.

In terms of a federal courtroom, his testimony is evidence.
It is meaningless if there isn't anything to back it up, right now it is, to the best of our knowledge, hearsay.
First, it's clearly relevant to whether Trump knew about the meeting beforehand.
Well yeah.
Second it's more probative than prejudicial in that rather than misleading the trier of fact or confusing any issues, it serves to clarify the most important issue as to Trump himself. Third, Cohen has personal, firsthand knowledge of the occurrence.
We do not know, unless I missed something, how Cohen obtained this alleged information.

Assuming that Cohen was there when Trump agreed to the meeting...
Let's wait to see what he says. Everything else is highly speculative.

There's no requirement that witness testimony needs independent corroboration here.
This would involve a trial of the President of the US. Mueller isn't going to bring forth a charge that he couldn't convict on in his sleep. That means information from numerous sources.

I want this to be true. I want Cohen in the room when Trump agrees to the meeting, though, I doubt very much that happened. But we must be weary as to the value of information here and there. Mueller isn't taking a case that is 50/50 to court. So if Cohen's information isn't perfect or fits a narrative from multiple other sources, it won't matter and he likely won't use it.
 
The trouble is Cohen has no evidence to support his claim...

If Team Cheato did not know that corroborating evidence was already in Mueller's hands (since they got to go through all of the material yielded in the Cohen raids), why would they have leaked this story? Maybe it is a Putinese false flag...
 
It is meaningless if there isn't anything to back it up, right now it is, to the best of our knowledge, hearsay.

No, it isn't hearsay for all the reasons/exceptions/non-hearsay I mentioned. And that's really just scratching the surface. In a trial, all this would come in--especially under federal rules. What would be sussed out is his credibility (assuming Cohen would testify at trial-----we're necessarily assuming a lot here).

We do not know, unless I missed something, how Cohen obtained this alleged information.

In an ideal (pretrial + potential trial) scenario, that's what would need to be found out in discovery. In the real world, each side would be allowed to discover what each trial witness would plan on disclosing. Thus, the case would likely never make it to trial because 1) the defense (Trump) wouldn't want Cohen's testimony to be disclosed and 2) the prosecution (e.g. Mueller) wouldn't want their witness to look like a dishonest SOB. A deal would be reached well before it got to that point (either criminal or civil).

Let's wait to see what he says. Everything else is highly speculative.

Mmm... maybe.

This would involve a trial of the President of the US. Mueller isn't going to bring forth a charge that he couldn't convict on in his sleep. That means information from numerous sources.
.

Hmm (again). This thing ain't going to trial, so a lot of what would normally happen, won't happen, which is too bad. Looking at it from what I like to think is an objective view, this is a case that would be pleaded out ASAP because the evidence, taken as a whole, is so damning. However, like you said, this is the "POTUS*" and therefore, not normal. On the other hand, there's more than enough (in a non-batshit world) for Cohen's testimony to be admissible.

So maybe that's the crux of any disagreement we have. I know for sure that Cohen's testimony is admissible, subject to impeachment by the defense. But if we're talking about the court of public opinion, that's an inestimable lump of god knows what.
 
Yawn.
Who among us ever doubted that Cheato was a knowing conspirator and advocate for that meeting?
 
Yawn.
Who among us ever doubted that Cheato was a knowing conspirator and advocate for that meeting?

The significance here is that we now appear to have a former confidant of Trump who is willing to testify under oath. That puts added pressure on other participants in the meeting, especially Donald Trump Jr, who may have lied to both Congress and the FBI on the matter, not just reporters. This Congress will never impeach Trump, but Mueller's investigation involves a lot of people who are not Donald Trump.
 
https://www.cnn.com


Michael Cohen, President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, claims that then-candidate Trump knew in advance about the June 2016 meeting in Trump Tower in which Russians were expected to offer his campaign dirt on Hillary Clinton, sources with knowledge tell CNN. Cohen is willing to make that assertion to special counsel Robert Mueller, the sources said.

Cohen's claim would contradict repeated denials by Trump, Donald Trump Jr., their lawyers and other administration officials who have said that the President knew nothing about the Trump Tower meeting until he was approached about it by The New York Times in July 2017.
Cohen alleges that he was present, along with several others, when Trump was informed of the Russians' offer by Trump Jr. By Cohen's account, Trump approved going ahead with the meeting with the Russians, according to sources.

This is a "No shit Sherlock" story, but it's Yuuuuge, Bigly, Tremendous, Beautiful "No Shit Sherlock."

The only thing holding me back from fully celebrating is that while it's on most outlets, CBS and ABC haven't put it up on their sites, so this may remain to be seen.

But good god, I would love this, especially in midsummer.

There seems to be some supporting evidence of Cohen's claim.

2 days before the meeting Trump promised to have some dirt on the Clintons. The meeting happened but didn't work out. After that, Trump did not come out with the dirt.

Candidate Donald Trump vowed to expose dirt on his political opponents Bill and Hillary Clinton just two days before the controversial 2016 Trump Tower meeting that his former lawyer Michael Cohen insisted Trump knew about.

Trump never delivered on his promise after his eldest son Donald Trump Jr., son-in-law Jared Kushner and then campaign manager Paul Manafort met with attorney Natalia Veselnitskaya in 2016. The men expected to be presented with damaging information about Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton, but the attorney failed to deliver, Donald Trump Jr. told Senate investigators.

His father’s promised speech on the Clintons then sank without a trace.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...ump-tower-meeting_us_5b5be524e4b0de86f4974fa3
 
No, it isn't hearsay for all the reasons/exceptions/non-hearsay I mentioned. And that's really just scratching the surface. In a trial, all this would come in--especially under federal rules. What would be sussed out is his credibility (assuming Cohen would testify at trial-----we're necessarily assuming a lot here).



In an ideal (pretrial + potential trial) scenario, that's what would need to be found out in discovery. In the real world, each side would be allowed to discover what each trial witness would plan on disclosing. Thus, the case would likely never make it to trial because 1) the defense (Trump) wouldn't want Cohen's testimony to be disclosed and 2) the prosecution (e.g. Mueller) wouldn't want their witness to look like a dishonest SOB. A deal would be reached well before it got to that point (either criminal or civil).

Let's wait to see what he says. Everything else is highly speculative.

Mmm... maybe.

This would involve a trial of the President of the US. Mueller isn't going to bring forth a charge that he couldn't convict on in his sleep. That means information from numerous sources.
.

Hmm (again). This thing ain't going to trial, so a lot of what would normally happen, won't happen, which is too bad. Looking at it from what I like to think is an objective view, this is a case that would be pleaded out ASAP because the evidence, taken as a whole, is so damning. However, like you said, this is the "POTUS*" and therefore, not normal. On the other hand, there's more than enough (in a non-batshit world) for Cohen's testimony to be admissible.

So maybe that's the crux of any disagreement we have. I know for sure that Cohen's testimony is admissible, subject to impeachment by the defense. But if we're talking about the court of public opinion, that's an inestimable lump of god knows what.

Poor Oppo.

The rest of the rightists have already switched from "no collusion!" to "Why is collusion a bad thing?"

It's obvious that you never got the memo. Don't you watch FOX News anymore? Or did you just get left behind by the other rightists?
 
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