Collecivism

[bilby]

"Better" as in on average their life will be better if they take such a position.

So, you ARE wrong. Though you don't appear to grasp the fact.

 

[Swammerdami]

Russian and Chinese experiments in Marxist collectivism/common ownership of means of production failed.

China is one most powerful and wealthy nations on the planet, one of the few entities that the US and Europe answer to, and produces a vast proportion of the world's supply of agricultural goods, all produced on collectively owned farms. How does that constitute a "failure"?

Yes. It is shallow thinking to impugn "collectivism" with the failures of Mao and Stalin. Consider the Revolution in 1930's Spain which was eventually defeated by the fascist Franco:

... We were almost totally oblivious to the fact that these workers and peasants had seized and collectivized most of the factories and land in republican-held areas, establishing a new social order based on direct control of the country's productive resources by workers' committees and peasant assemblies. While the republic's institutions lay in debris, abandoned by most of its military and police forces, the workers and peasants had created their own institutions to administer the cities in Republican Spain, formed their own armed workers' squads to patrol the streets, and established a remarkable revolutionary militia force with which to fight the Francoist forces—a voluntaristic militia in which men and women elected their own commanders and in which military rank conferred no social, material, or symbolic distinctions. Largely unknown to us at that time, the Spanish workers and peasants had made a sweeping social revolution. They had created their own revolutionary social forms to administer the country as well as to wage war against a well-trained and well-supplied army. The "Spanish Civil War" was not a political conflict between a liberal democracy and a fascist military corps but a deeply socio-economic conflict between the workers and peasants of Spain and their historic class enemies, ranging from the landowning grandees and clerical overlords inherited from the past to the rising industrial bourgeoisie and bankers of more recent times.
...
Burnett Bolloten, a rather politically innocent United Press reporter who happened to be stationed in Madrid at the time, conveys his own sense of moral outrage at the misrepresentation of the Spanish conflict in the opening lines of his superbly documented study, The Grand Camouflage:

Although the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War in July, 1936, was followed by a far-reaching social-revolution in the anti-Franco camp—more profound in some respects than the Bolshevik Revolution in its early stages—millions of discerning people outside of Spain were kept in ignorance, not only of its depth and range, but even of its existence, by virtue of a policy of duplicity and dissimulation of which there is no parallel in history.

Foremost in practicing this deception upon the world, and in misrepresenting in Spain itself the character of the revolution, were the Communists, who, although but an exiguous minority when the Civil War began, used so effectually the manifold opportunities which that very upheaval presented that before the close of the conflict in 1939 they became, behind a democratic frontispiece, the ruling force in the left camp.

The details of this deception could fill several large volumes.

... China has been posturng and dragging its feet, but they are cumming around to negotiation with us.

I won't object to this sort of sexist insult when addressed against alleged couch-f**kers or confessed pussy-grabbers but please let's not indulge in sexual fantasies about the yellow-skinned people.

 

[JohnG]

Everything we do exists in a collective state.

Concepts like rugged individualism or a free market economy can only exist in a collective.

 

[Politesse]

Not quite the same thing as collectivism. All cultures have individuals as well, and communes, and capital. The suffix tells you you're after s specific ideology or system.

 

[steve_bank]

By collectivism I meant Russian and Chinese large scale collectivism by the state. A state run centralized economy. The path to a private sector in China began with divesting large scale industrial manufacturing.

Collectivism led to large scale farmine.

Agricultural land in China is primarily owned by rural collectives, which are local groups of farmers, with some land owned by the state. However, the right to farm the land is contracted to individual households under the Household Responsibility System.

China's National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) sets prices for agricultural products through minimum purchase price programs for key commodities like grains and corn, establishing floor prices to ensure food self-sufficiency and support farmers' incomes. While market forces play a role, the government's direct intervention via minimum prices and the procurement of commodities for state reserves heavily influences and stabilizes prices for many important agricultural products.

China is not collectivist in the Marxist sense. Removing all personal incentives in Russian and Chinese collectivism led to a stagnate economy.

There is investment and a stick arjet in China, a profit incentive.

China has a stock market, and its most prominent exchanges are the Shanghai Stock Exchange (SSE), Shenzhen Stock Exchange (SZSE), and Beijing Stock Exchange (BSE). These exchanges host shares of Chinese companies, known as A-shares, that trade in the Chinese currency, the renminbi (RMB). While historically restricted, access to these markets has been gradually expanded to foreign investors through systems like Qualified Foreign Institutional Investor (QFII) and by listing American Depositary Receipts (ADRs) on U.S. exchanges.

The assertion that China rose to economic power through collectivism is false. The industrial and technology economy is a private sector, China in socials and the CCP has overall top level power over the economy and limits the power of the wealthy class.

When Russia collapsed the Russian communist elite were sold Russian assets cheap, resulting in nthe Russian oligarchs.

 

[Politesse]

By collectivism I meant Russian and Chinese large scale collectivism by the state. A state run centralized economy. The path to a private sector in China began with divesting large scale industrial manufacturing.

Collectivism led to large scale farmine.

Agricultural land in China is primarily owned by rural collectives, which are local groups of farmers, with some land owned by the state. However, the right to farm the land is contracted to individual households under the Household Responsibility System.

China's National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) sets prices for agricultural products through minimum purchase price programs for key commodities like grains and corn, establishing floor prices to ensure food self-sufficiency and support farmers' incomes. While market forces play a role, the government's direct intervention via minimum prices and the procurement of commodities for state reserves heavily influences and stabilizes prices for many important agricultural products.

China is not collectivist in the Marxist sense. Removing all personal incentives in Russian and Chinese collectivism led to a stagnate economy.

There is investment and a stick arjet in China, a profit incentive.

China has a stock market, and its most prominent exchanges are the Shanghai Stock Exchange (SSE), Shenzhen Stock Exchange (SZSE), and Beijing Stock Exchange (BSE). These exchanges host shares of Chinese companies, known as A-shares, that trade in the Chinese currency, the renminbi (RMB). While historically restricted, access to these markets has been gradually expanded to foreign investors through systems like Qualified Foreign Institutional Investor (QFII) and by listing American Depositary Receipts (ADRs) on U.S. exchanges.

The assertion that China rose to economic power through collectivism is false. The industrial and technology economy is a private sector, China in socials and the CCP has overall top level power over the economy and limits the power of the wealthy class.

When Russia collapsed the Russian communist elite were sold Russian assets cheap, resulting in nthe Russian oligarchs.

I am baffled by this post. Your own uncited sources do not agree with your views.

 

[lpetrich]

By collectivism I meant Russian and Chinese large scale collectivism by the state.

As opposed to more general sorts of collectivism, like big businesses and team sports.

Removing all personal incentives in Russian and Chinese collectivism led to a stagnate economy.

Except that they didn't do that.

There is investment and a stick arjet in China, a profit incentive.

All that means is that Communist China is now a capitalist-roader state, to use an old Maoist insult.