Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[Jimmy Higgins]

The president of the university said the following:

The encampment of students on the Manhattan campus “severely disrupts campus life, and creates a harassing and intimidating environment for many of our students,” Shafik wrote in a university-wide email following the arrests.

Should universities allow harassing and intimidating environments for many students and severe disruptions to campus life?

If that protest was harassing and intimidating, what would we call the Kent State affair?

The University President is using hyperbole here. And quite needlessly so. Decorum and collegiate etiquette would have sufficed.

Imagine if it was an encampment protesting affirmative action, and the students regularly screamed at the minority students walking by that they only got admitted to the university due to their skin color. Arresting such students after several warnings to pack up their encampment wouldn't be unreasonable.

Let's not imagine it being something it isn't. That is a distraction. I think the school isn't managing this well at all, especially for an Ivy League school that is supposed to excel in teaching.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In the world without nuanced thinking, I’d agree. But I live in the real world where I can understand that the call for destruction of a country may he a call for the destruction of it government but not its people.

You call it "nuanced thinking", I call it "incredible naïveté".

So you see the difference between being hateful and being naïve then.

And again, you do not call for a one state solution between Russia and Ukraine. Why the double standard?

Because the two situations wouldn't be remotely compatible or relatable?

 

[Axulus]

The University President is using hyperbole here. And quite needlessly so. Decorum and collegiate etiquette would have sufficed.

You think it is hyperbolic to call an environment with these kind of incidents threatening and intimidating to many students?

“I am horrified and disgusted with the antisemitism being spewed at and around the Columbia University campus — like the example of a young woman holding a sign with an arrow pointing to Jewish students stating ‘Al-Qasam’s Next Targets,’ or another where a woman is literally yelling ‘We are Hamas,’ or another where groups of students are chanting ‘We don’t want no Zionists here’

And there have been others:

On Sunday, those allegations gathered further steam after footage on social media appeared to show pro-Palestine activists outside the Columbia campus telling pro-Israel students to “go back to Poland”. One activist said that October 7 “will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times”...A chapter of an international Orthodox Jewish movement, Chabad at Columbia University, released a statement saying that protesters also told Jewish students, “You have no culture”, “All you do is colonise” and to “Go back to Europe”.

 

[Axulus]

Should universities allow harassing and intimidating environments for many students and severe disruptions to campus life?

Of course not.

But I would be wary of what a “ harassing and intimidating environment” means in university speak means.

Does it refer to deeds and speech a snowflake or a reasonable ( whatever that means) person or a stoic finds intimidating or harassment ?

I work at an university ( though not a large ine like Columbia) and IMO, Don’s description if “ semantic ambiguity “ is spot on.

Based on the incidents I posted in my response to Jimmy, I would consider the concerns reasonable. Of course not all the protestors are engaging in these kind of actions, but I can see how the encampment can make the students subject to the abuse very uncomfortable by the entire encampment.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The University President is using hyperbole here. And quite needlessly so. Decorum and collegiate etiquette would have sufficed.

You think it is hyperbolic to call an environment with these kind of incidents threatening and intimidating to many students?

I'm unaware of anyone being threatened. If people are being threatened by the protestors on campus, that'd be absolutely unacceptable.

“I am horrified and disgusted with the antisemitism being spewed at and around the Columbia University campus — like the example of a young woman holding a sign with an arrow pointing to Jewish students stating ‘Al-Qasam’s Next Targets,’ or another where a woman is literally yelling ‘We are Hamas,’ or another where groups of students are chanting ‘We don’t want no Zionists here’

If those things actually occurred within the contexts alleged, while I'd say it wasn't a "threat", it would undoubtedly be against any proper free speech decorum and shouldn't be tolerated. I'd be not quick to judge certain things that could be ambiguous, though. Social media can be a bitch sometimes to know the truth.

And there have been others:

On Sunday, those allegations gathered further steam after footage on social media appeared to show pro-Palestine activists outside the Columbia campus telling pro-Israel students to “go back to Poland”. One activist said that October 7 “will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times”...A chapter of an international Orthodox Jewish movement, Chabad at Columbia University, released a statement saying that protesters also told Jewish students, “You have no culture”, “All you do is colonise” and to “Go back to Europe”.

That is outside of the campus. I think it'd be abhorrent for anyone to say any such things. I find it hard to believe someone would say "go back to Europe" unless that is a better veiled slur than "go back to Poland".

Be a great time for the school to hold a Forum to manage the alleged bigotry. This is where a college is supposed to make its students put up or shut up.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Should universities allow harassing and intimidating environments for many students and severe disruptions to campus life?

Of course not.

But I would be wary of what a “ harassing and intimidating environment” means in university speak means.

Does it refer to deeds and speech a snowflake or a reasonable ( whatever that means) person or a stoic finds intimidating or harassment ?

I work at an university ( though not a large ine like Columbia) and IMO, Don’s description if “ semantic ambiguity “ is spot on.

Based on the incidents I posted in my response to Jimmy, I would consider the concerns reasonable. Of course not all the protestors are engaging in these kind of actions, but I can see how the encampment can make the students subject to the abuse very uncomfortable by the entire encampment.

My post to you included a quick reference to due process. Do you throw out a student organization because of what some idiot outside of Columbia says when the organization essentially told outsiders they are not welcome? When you suspend students do you not follow due process to have a hearing or follow other procedures by policy?

What you are leaving out is that two students threw chemicals at the protesters. That's more than words. Here is what you don't see from that: a lot of media coverage over and over with messaging though there is some if you look; one does not see those two students have their organizations suspended indefinitely from campus; and thirdly, one does not observe a lack of due process, i.e. procedures were followed to suspend particular individuals who threw chemicals at the pro-Palestinian protesters.

Finally, the unambiguous, concrete incidents you are citing are from outside protesters, not the organizations in the school, and these have happened because all the attention is now drawn to at a minimum perceived if not actual, injustice and discrimination.

 

[Axulus]

Should universities allow harassing and intimidating environments for many students and severe disruptions to campus life?

Of course not.

But I would be wary of what a “ harassing and intimidating environment” means in university speak means.

Does it refer to deeds and speech a snowflake or a reasonable ( whatever that means) person or a stoic finds intimidating or harassment ?

I work at an university ( though not a large ine like Columbia) and IMO, Don’s description if “ semantic ambiguity “ is spot on.

Based on the incidents I posted in my response to Jimmy, I would consider the concerns reasonable. Of course not all the protestors are engaging in these kind of actions, but I can see how the encampment can make the students subject to the abuse very uncomfortable by the entire encampment.

My post to you included a quick reference to due process. Do you throw out a student organization because of what some idiot outside of Columbia says when the organization essentially told outsiders they are not welcome? When you suspend students do you not follow due process to have a hearing or follow other procedures by policy?

What you are leaving out is that two students threw chemicals at the protesters. That's more than words. Here is what you don't see from that: a lot of media coverage over and over with messaging though there is some if you look; one does not see those two students have their organizations suspended indefinitely from campus; and thirdly, one does not observe a lack of due process, i.e. procedures were followed to suspend particular individuals who threw chemicals at the pro-Palestinian protesters.

Finally, the unambiguous, concrete incidents you are citing are from outside protesters, not the organizations in the school, and these have happened because all the attention is now drawn to at a minimum perceived if not actual, injustice and discrimination.

The due process concerns are different than deciding to end the encampment and then following through on that decision. After considering their options, the complaints from students and concerns for their safety, and the disruption to regular university function, administration decided it was time for the encampment to pack up. The students were given many warnings to pack up their encampment. The administration made several offers in an attempt to negotiate. After negotiations failed, they were told they would be arrested unless they left. They refused to comply and were therefore arrested. Now whether they should face further consequences is a completely different matter.

 

[laughing dog]

The University President is using hyperbole here. And quite needlessly so. Decorum and collegiate etiquette would have sufficed.

You think it is hyperbolic to call an environment with these kind of incidents threatening and intimidating to many students?

I don't think it is hyperbolic. I think it may be accurate representation of some students' perceptions. But their perception does not make it a reasonable one.

“I am horrified and disgusted with the antisemitism being spewed at and around the Columbia University campus — like the example of a young woman holding a sign with an arrow pointing to Jewish students stating ‘Al-Qasam’s Next Targets,’ or another where a woman is literally yelling ‘We are Hamas,’ or another where groups of students are chanting ‘We don’t want no Zionists here’

And there have been others:

On Sunday, those allegations gathered further steam after footage on social media appeared to show pro-Palestine activists outside the Columbia campus telling pro-Israel students to “go back to Poland”. One activist said that October 7 “will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times”...A chapter of an international Orthodox Jewish movement, Chabad at Columbia University, released a statement saying that protesters also told Jewish students, “You have no culture”, “All you do is colonise” and to “Go back to Europe”.

Those examples violate my sense of decorum but I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to be intimidated or feel harassed by such taunts.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The University President is using hyperbole here. And quite needlessly so. Decorum and collegiate etiquette would have sufficed.

You think it is hyperbolic to call an environment with these kind of incidents threatening and intimidating to many students?

I don't think it is hyperbolic. I think it may be accurate representation of some students' perceptions. But their perception does not make it a reasonable one.

“I am horrified and disgusted with the antisemitism being spewed at and around the Columbia University campus — like the example of a young woman holding a sign with an arrow pointing to Jewish students stating ‘Al-Qasam’s Next Targets,’ or another where a woman is literally yelling ‘We are Hamas,’ or another where groups of students are chanting ‘We don’t want no Zionists here’

And there have been others:

On Sunday, those allegations gathered further steam after footage on social media appeared to show pro-Palestine activists outside the Columbia campus telling pro-Israel students to “go back to Poland”. One activist said that October 7 “will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times”...A chapter of an international Orthodox Jewish movement, Chabad at Columbia University, released a statement saying that protesters also told Jewish students, “You have no culture”, “All you do is colonise” and to “Go back to Europe”.

Those examples violate my sense of decorum but I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to be intimidated or feel harassed by such taunts.

Go back to Poland is a refernce to Auchwitz. While not a threat, I'd find the statement potential expellable. Such a comment allegedly came from outside the school though.

 

[Axulus]

The University President is using hyperbole here. And quite needlessly so. Decorum and collegiate etiquette would have sufficed.

You think it is hyperbolic to call an environment with these kind of incidents threatening and intimidating to many students?

I don't think it is hyperbolic. I think it may be accurate representation of some students' perceptions. But their perception does not make it a reasonable one.

“I am horrified and disgusted with the antisemitism being spewed at and around the Columbia University campus — like the example of a young woman holding a sign with an arrow pointing to Jewish students stating ‘Al-Qasam’s Next Targets,’ or another where a woman is literally yelling ‘We are Hamas,’ or another where groups of students are chanting ‘We don’t want no Zionists here’

And there have been others:

On Sunday, those allegations gathered further steam after footage on social media appeared to show pro-Palestine activists outside the Columbia campus telling pro-Israel students to “go back to Poland”. One activist said that October 7 “will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times”...A chapter of an international Orthodox Jewish movement, Chabad at Columbia University, released a statement saying that protesters also told Jewish students, “You have no culture”, “All you do is colonise” and to “Go back to Europe”.

Those examples violate my sense of decorum but I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to be intimidated or feel harassed by such taunts.

That's a judgment call, and we also don't know the specific contents of all the student complaints.

I think a university should err on the side of keeping students in a safe and welcoming environment and keep main university functions running relatively uninterrupted over allowing students to set up protest encampments.

I disagree with expelling any students for the encampment but I think it is reasonable to put a stop to it. Expulsion should be based on specific threats and harassment by specific individuals against specific individuals, with due process rights respected.

 

[laughing dog]

The University President is using hyperbole here. And quite needlessly so. Decorum and collegiate etiquette would have sufficed.

You think it is hyperbolic to call an environment with these kind of incidents threatening and intimidating to many students?

I don't think it is hyperbolic. I think it may be accurate representation of some students' perceptions. But their perception does not make it a reasonable one.

“I am horrified and disgusted with the antisemitism being spewed at and around the Columbia University campus — like the example of a young woman holding a sign with an arrow pointing to Jewish students stating ‘Al-Qasam’s Next Targets,’ or another where a woman is literally yelling ‘We are Hamas,’ or another where groups of students are chanting ‘We don’t want no Zionists here’

And there have been others:

On Sunday, those allegations gathered further steam after footage on social media appeared to show pro-Palestine activists outside the Columbia campus telling pro-Israel students to “go back to Poland”. One activist said that October 7 “will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times”...A chapter of an international Orthodox Jewish movement, Chabad at Columbia University, released a statement saying that protesters also told Jewish students, “You have no culture”, “All you do is colonise” and to “Go back to Europe”.

Those examples violate my sense of decorum but I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to be intimidated or feel harassed by such taunts.

That's a judgment call, and we also don't know the specific contents of all the student complaints.

I think a university should err on the side of keeping students in a safe and welcoming environment and keep main university functions running relatively uninterrupted over allowing students to set up protest encampments.

Allowing reasonable protests is erring on the side of educating students on the fundamental notion of freedom of speech and the exchange of ideas. This is an university in NYC, not some kindergarten.

Frankly, I know from experience that student and faculty quickly learn how to game the "victimhood" mantle in order to stifle disagreement or views they don't like.

I disagree with expelling any students for the encampment but I think it is reasonable to put a stop to it. Expulsion should be based on specific threats and harassment by specific individuals against specific individuals, with due process rights respected.

Suspending or expelling protesting students two weeks before the last day of classes (April 29 from what I can tell) without a damn good reason is simply cowardice. Unless these students were actual threats, there are other ways to deal with them.

 

[Arctish]

Go back to Poland is a refernce to Auchwitz. While not a threat, I'd find the statement potential expellable. Such a comment allegedly came from outside the school though.

Says who?

Was the person who said "go back to Poland" interviewed? Did they confirm that was their meaning? Or are you supposing they were making a reference to Auschwitz when, for all you know, they might have been talking about Warsaw?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is a presumption, but it would be an awfully coincidental case if the person being taunted was actually from Poland.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The University President is using hyperbole here. And quite needlessly so. Decorum and collegiate etiquette would have sufficed.

You think it is hyperbolic to call an environment with these kind of incidents threatening and intimidating to many students?

I don't think it is hyperbolic. I think it may be accurate representation of some students' perceptions. But their perception does not make it a reasonable one.

“I am horrified and disgusted with the antisemitism being spewed at and around the Columbia University campus — like the example of a young woman holding a sign with an arrow pointing to Jewish students stating ‘Al-Qasam’s Next Targets,’ or another where a woman is literally yelling ‘We are Hamas,’ or another where groups of students are chanting ‘We don’t want no Zionists here’

And there have been others:

On Sunday, those allegations gathered further steam after footage on social media appeared to show pro-Palestine activists outside the Columbia campus telling pro-Israel students to “go back to Poland”. One activist said that October 7 “will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times”...A chapter of an international Orthodox Jewish movement, Chabad at Columbia University, released a statement saying that protesters also told Jewish students, “You have no culture”, “All you do is colonise” and to “Go back to Europe”.

Those examples violate my sense of decorum but I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to be intimidated or feel harassed by such taunts.

That's a judgment call, and we also don't know the specific contents of all the student complaints.

I think a university should err on the side of keeping students in a safe and welcoming environment and keep main university functions running relatively uninterrupted over allowing students to set up protest encampments.

Allowing reasonable protests is erring on the side of educating students on the fundamental notion of freedom of speech and the exchange of ideas. This is an university in NYC, not some kindergarten.

Yes and no. Protesting is one thing, demonstrating a point is another. College is more about doing the later. Personally I'm curious where they are finding the time to protest.

Frankly, I know from experience that student and faculty quickly learn how to game the "victimhood" mantle in order to stifle disagreement or views they don't like.

I disagree with expelling any students for the encampment but I think it is reasonable to put a stop to it. Expulsion should be based on specific threats and harassment by specific individuals against specific individuals, with due process rights respected.

Suspending or expelling protesting students two weeks before the last day of classes (April 29 from what I can tell) without a damn good reason is simply cowardice.

And we don't have the details, do we?

Unless these students were actual threats, there are other ways to deal with them.

Certainly would seem to be.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I don't support that kind of statement.

It was said outside the gates of Columbia, by a non-student. Again, the student organization has said it doesn't agree with random extremist people coming up to Columbia, and saying extremist things.

Additionally, the statement is being used by Axulus to justify a suspension of students inside the school and the statement was made after the suspensions. It was said by a non-student.

As far as the "Go back to Poland" I have read in the NY Post, there was also "Go back to Belarus!" To me, while that could be a more general "Go back to Europe" litany of countries, I think it's not very likely to be concentration camps, but instead a ghetto reference. It's being said likely by a Palestinian American very upset by the 35,000 killed in Gaza and the occupation who is basically saying I would like you to be in a ghetto like in Gaza.

It's hateful and angry which is why the student organizations do not support that kind of rhetoric.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It seems like within the last 24 hours....arrests have been made at Harvard and NYU...related to similar protests...

including arrests of faculty.

I will include some links soon.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Go back to Poland is a refernce to Auchwitz. While not a threat, I'd find the statement potential expellable. Such a comment allegedly came from outside the school though.

Says who?

Was the person who said "go back to Poland" interviewed? Did they confirm that was their meaning? Or are you supposing they were making a reference to Auschwitz when, for all you know, they might have been talking about Warsaw?

Well the person yelling this is a bully at the very least and a thug.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

NYU



according to the article, people were arrested at both an encampment AND a protest not at the encampment.



one professor heard saying he was in front of his office, so how is that trespassing?

NYPD arrests over 100 protesters at NYU, clears out anti-Israel encampment on campus

The NYPD arrested more than 100 protesters at New York University, including students and faculty, on Monday night and cleared out a campus encampment set up earlier by anti-Israel demonstrators. C…

nypost.com

Dozens arrested at Yale and NYU as pro-Palestinian student protests spread

Authorities move to break up encampments at two more US universities on Monday, as Columbia University cancels in-person classes

www.theguardian.com

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't support that kind of statement.

It was said outside the gates of Columbia, by a non-student. Again, the student organization has said it doesn't agree with random extremist people coming up to Columbia, and saying extremist things.

Additionally, the statement is being used by Axulus to justify a suspension of students inside the school and the statement was made after the suspensions. It was said by a non-student.

That'd be Axulus's understanding of what is happening. I'm pretty certain none of us are clear on who is being punished for what and how. Yes, I would agree, protests outside the campus by others are not the responsibility of the students.

As far as the "Go back to Poland" I have read in the NY Post, there was also "Go back to Belarus!" To me, while that could be a more general "Go back to Europe" litany of countries, I think it's not very likely to be concentration camps, but instead a ghetto reference.

I suppose it is possible, if it is a counter to "Go back to Gaza" or "Go back to Palestine". It is "Poland" however, that seems like a particularly odd reference. It could be benign, but it could be abhorrent. This is kind of the problem with making stupid vague statements. You should be making a statement, not requiring the listening to figure out what you mean.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I don't support that kind of statement.

It was said outside the gates of Columbia, by a non-student. Again, the student organization has said it doesn't agree with random extremist people coming up to Columbia, and saying extremist things.

Additionally, the statement is being used by Axulus to justify a suspension of students inside the school and the statement was made after the suspensions. It was said by a non-student.

That'd be Axulus's understanding of what is happening. I'm pretty certain none of us are clear on who is being punished for what and how. Yes, I would agree, protests outside the campus by others are not the responsibility of the students.

As far as the "Go back to Poland" I have read in the NY Post, there was also "Go back to Belarus!" To me, while that could be a more general "Go back to Europe" litany of countries, I think it's not very likely to be concentration camps, but instead a ghetto reference.

I suppose it is possible, if it is a counter to "Go back to Gaza" or "Go back to Palestine". It is "Poland" however, that seems like a particularly odd reference. It could be benign, but it could be abhorrent. This is kind of the problem with making stupid vague statements. You should be making a statement, not requiring the listening to figure out what you mean.

Sorry, let me be clearer. Yes, absolutely one OUGHT to make a longer, logical statement. The particular non-student outside the college after the suspensions was being a bully and jerk. So he was interested in a sloganized phrase he could repeat at people. He was angry and engaging in hate. So I do not support his words or actions. Those words and actions are not the same either as the Columbia U organization and reason for their suspension.