Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[Derec]

Hans and Sophie Scholl were not self-hating Germans.

AFAIK they did not call for Germany to be abolished.

Redoing a govt or making 2 is not anti-semitic either.

Anti-Zionists want Israel to be abolished and all the land be given to Arabs.

Of course, some people might use the phrase to mean something else, but not JVP.

What do you think they mean?

 

[Derec]

Because anti-Israel is not the same as anti- Jewish.

When you hold Israel to standards dissimilar to any other country in the world, you might be an anti-semite.
When you think Israel should just roll over and not defend itself from attacks by Hamas and other Tehran vassals, you might be an anti-semite.
When you think Israel should be destroyed, you damn sure are an anti-semite.

 

[laughing dog]

Because anti-Israel is not the same as anti- Jewish.

When you hold Israel to standards dissimilar to any other country in the world, you might be an anti-semite.
When you think Israel should just roll over and not defend itself from attacks by Hamas and other Tehran vassals, you might be an anti-semite.
When you think Israel should be destroyed, you damn sure are an anti-semite.

In the world without nuanced thinking, I’d agree. But I live in the real world where I can understand that the call for destruction of a country may he a call for the destruction of it government but not its people.

 

[Derec]

Ilhan Omar's daughter was among the arrested. It seems antisemitism runs in the family.

Why the eyeroll? Like mother, like daughter.

 

[Derec]

In the world without nuanced thinking, I’d agree. But I live in the real world where I can understand that the call for destruction of a country may he a call for the destruction of it government but not its people.

You call it "nuanced thinking", I call it "incredible naïveté".

And again, you do not call for a one state solution between Russia and Ukraine. Why the double standard?

 

[laughing dog]

In the world without nuanced thinking, I’d agree. But I live in the real world where I can understand that the call for destruction of a country may he a call for the destruction of it government but not its people.

You call it "nuanced thinking", I call it "incredible naïveté".

And again, you do not call for a one state solution between Russia and Ukraine. Why the double standard?

In order for there to be a double standard,
1) I’d have to had called for a single state in Palestine, and
2) the two situations would have to be similar.

I have never called fir a single state in Palestine. And no rational person would say the two situations are remotely comparable.

So your accusation of an alleged double standard seems to me to a rather desperate attempt to insult the intelligence of any reader.

 

[Swammerdami]

One of the groups who helped to set up the encampment was Jewish Voice for Peace which is an anti-zionist Jewish group.

So basically Derec's claims of anti-semitism and the immature caricatures go to....

Reductio ad absurdum.

Careful, Don2. This is primarily an AMERIKAN board and we speak AMERIKAN English here. Take your cutesy spellings like "colour" and your nuanced definitions of anti-Zionist somewhere else!!

You probably think "anti-Zionism" means opposition to Zionism, or at least to Zionism's most extreme forms, like the blood-lusting Zionists who advocate illegal confiscation of land in the West Bank. Listen to what "anti-Zionism" really means:

Anti-Zionists want Israel to be abolished and all the land be given to Arabs.

What Creed's Anagram is too polite to say, is that anti-Zionists want to slaughter thousands of innocent Jewish children, and to deprive hundreds of thousands more of food, medicine, and even safe water. Is THAT what you mean by "Anti-Zionism", Don2? Do you think Jewish Voice for Peace wants to behave toward Israel the same way Israel behaves toward Gaza?

One of the groups who helped to set up the encampment was Jewish Voice for Peace which is an anti-zionist Jewish group.

So basically Derec's claims of anti-semitism and the immature caricatures go to....

Reductio ad absurdum.

So-called "Jewish Voice for Peace" is a self-hating extremist group. Noam Chomsky of all people is on its board for fuck's sake. It's not proving anything. It's not vert different than the extremist Americans who think that US is the worst country in the world.

Noam Chomsky!! Wow!!! Is he that sex trafficker frequently compared to Josef Stalin? The one that happens to have the same name as "the most quoted source in the humanities, tied with Marx, Shakespeare and the Bible", the one ranked "among the world's foremost heroes", and "the world's leading public intellectual" by publications on both the left and the right? The one whose high honors I cannot list here -- the Board's limit on post size would be exceeded -- the same Noam Chomsky so dedicated to free speech that he didn't want Holocaust deniers to have their speech suppressed?

Also on JVP's Board is Naomi Klein. Hey! I've read several of her books but I don't recall the titles off-hand. Was one Mein Kampf? Nah -- IIRC that was written by some other "anti-Zionist."

- - - - - - - - - - - -

So let's watch our dialectal variations, ladies and gentlemen. "Anti-Zionism" doesn't mean quite the same thing in the rational world as it does among Amerika's vitriolic right-wing ilk.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Hans and Sophie Scholl were not self-hating Germans.

AFAIK they did not call for Germany to be abolished.

They opposed subhumanism as well as imperialism, the latter of which is relevant because in opposing Nazi imperialism you would want the borders of Germany to be changed back and the govt to be redone...which really isn't different in any significant regard to redoing the govt of Israel, its borders, etc.

Redoing a govt or making 2 is not anti-semitic either.

Anti-Zionists want Israel to be abolished and all the land be given to Arabs.

Certainly many anti-Zionists disagree with defining a country as a Jewish country in much the same way that I disagree with defining the United States as a Christian nation. And this large subset of anti-Zionists is not so much in favor of giving the land to Arabs as in living in peace with multiculturalism and secularism. Another subset of anti-Zionists is largely critical of right-wing policies of Israel and the exact nature of the disposition of Israel in their views is not monolithic. A third large contingent of anti-Zionists is a religious view that Israel was not supposed to be "reclaimed" until there is a declared "Messiah" which is counter to a religious view of at least some religious Zionists of a "right of return" to the Jewish diaspora. It is only really the last type of anti-Zionist that it could be said categorically is in favor of the land being given to Arabs, but as described this is not all or most anti-Zionists.

Now besides this, the context of discussion is Jewish Voice for Peace which while Jewish involves itself in secular reasoning of its activism, not religious anti-Zionism. So, the latter contingent of anti-Zionists is mostly not relevant to the context of discussion.

Furthermore, your original claim was that of anti-semitism, not anti-Zionism in all its variants, and so you are shifting the goalposts.

 

[repoman]

Should have had two strong and stable ethnostates. One for the Arab Muslim Palestinians and one for the Jewish (religious or just part of the tribe) people. Then no one would be so worried about demographic overtaking and the loss of voting power and no need for second class citizenship. Also, no impetus to overbreed to maybe gain power either.

Oh well.

 

[TomC]

Should have had two strong and stable ethnostates. One for the Arab Muslim Palestinians and one for the Jewish (religious or just part of the tribe) people. Then no one would be so worried about demographic overtaking and the loss of voting power and no need for second class citizenship.

Oh well.

I totally agree.
The problem I see is mostly trying to form a Palestinian government that will take care of the Palestinians. The history doesn't make the chances of that look good.

Too often, they seem to focus on ethnic cleansing of Israel and not on peace and prosperity for Palestinians.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Should have had two strong and stable ethnostates. One for the Arab Muslim Palestinians and one for the Jewish (religious or just part of the tribe) people. Then no one would be so worried about demographic overtaking and the loss of voting power and no need for second class citizenship.

Oh well.

I totally agree.
The problem I see is mostly trying to form a Palestinian government that will take care of the Palestinians. The history doesn't make the chances of that look good.

Too often, they seem to focus on ethnic cleansing of Israel and not on peace and prosperity for Palestinians.
Tom

Also agree.
Authoritarian governing entities usually seek a mortal enemy to cement their support, which is one reason democracy and term limits are important. They tend to defuse artificially inflated threats.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

At least 1 student is now evicted. It is likely that all of the suspended students are being evicted. Given the schedule of finals and the ramifications of suspension, eviction, and not completing coursework, being labeled anti-semitic or terrorist sympathizers, ... to finally not being able to get jobs, one can see this is really being canceled. So where are the conservolibertarian principles about cancelations?

Well, here's one conservative news site:

Suspended anti-Israel protester moans about being kicked out of dorm after she was arrested

“I was forced to stand outside the Barnard gates for an entire hour waiting for someone to let me in,” said Maryam Iqbal, who was told she had just 15 minutes to pack and leave.

nypost.com

 

[repoman]

What did they expect in a city with that high a Jewish population?

Jesse Jackson called it right.

 

[Harry Bosch]

At least 1 student is now evicted. It is likely that all of the suspended students are being evicted. Given the schedule of finals and the ramifications of suspension, eviction, and not completing coursework, being labeled anti-semitic or terrorist sympathizers, ... to finally not being able to get jobs, one can see this is really being canceled. So where are the conservolibertarian principles about cancelations?

Well, here's one conservative news site:

Suspended anti-Israel protester moans about being kicked out of dorm after she was arrested

“I was forced to stand outside the Barnard gates for an entire hour waiting for someone to let me in,” said Maryam Iqbal, who was told she had just 15 minutes to pack and leave.

nypost.com

Of course! Conservatives invented the "cancel culture' many many years ago. I support the right of the protestors. However, some of the protestors are harassing and bullying the Jewish students. I can't support bullying in school.

 

[TomC]

What did they expect in a city with that high a Jewish population?

Jesse Jackson called it right.

Is that who referred to NYC as "hymietown"?
I don't remember who that was.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

What did they expect in a city with that high a Jewish population?

Jesse Jackson called it right.

Is that who referred to NYC as "hymietown"?
I don't remember who that was.
Tom

Yes

 

[JohnG]

...and there you have it, folks, the self-hating Jews trope.

When Jews disagree with your ideology, they are self-hating Jews, but when they agree, their opponents are anti-semitic.

Yeah, that's the ticket!

Yup. I'm a self hating Jew because I don't like Netanyahu. Isn't that how it works?

 

[Axulus]

The president of the university said the following:

The encampment of students on the Manhattan campus “severely disrupts campus life, and creates a harassing and intimidating environment for many of our students,” Shafik wrote in a university-wide email following the arrests.

Should universities allow harassing and intimidating environments for many students and severe disruptions to campus life?

Imagine if it was an encampment protesting affirmative action, and the students regularly screamed at the minority students walking by that they only got admitted to the university due to their skin color. Arresting such students after several warnings to pack up their encampment wouldn't be unreasonable.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Claims of "severe" disruptions and "harassing" are semantic ambiguities likely really not much as applied to collectively 100 people arrested. Those are allegations and no student has been given due process ordinarily afforded to students according to school policy.

That said, the move to arrest students has backfired and been met with escalation both from within and from outside Columbia. There are now pro-Palestinian groups outside Columbia protesting at the gates and more students have set up more tents and more protests from within the gates.

This actually NOW is way more of a disruption than it ever was and the bigger crowds will of course contain a wider distribution of ideas, including a few people who could be very much extremist. There's even more attention now on what is going on which will draw in crazy people like the guy who self-immolated in front of the court building where Trump is on trial. So any fears someone could have had before about feeling intimidated are now multiplied because there are many outsiders with unknown ideologies possibly seeking attention.

Now Columbia has decided to do virtual classes because of the escalation. See here.

“If I had my child at Columbia, I also would tell them to go home,” Hagar Chemali, an adjunct associate professor of International and Public Affairs at the university, told CNN Monday. “It’s not just because of the tension on campus, it’s also because those protests on campus have invited extremists outside.”

Organizers of the campus protest – Columbia University Apartheid Divest and Columbia Students for Justice in Palestine – said in a statement, “We have been peaceful,” and distanced themselves from non-student protestors who have gathered outside the campus, calling them “inflammatory individuals who do not represent us.”

“We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry and stand vigilant against non-students attempting to disrupt the solidarity being forged among students – Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, Jewish, Black and pro-Palestinian classmates and colleagues who represent the full diversity of our country,” the activists’ statement continued.

Columbia student, Noah Lederman, told CNN he was “terrified, angry, upset, and horrified that the university failed to take action.” Lederman said he had been accosted in early February and had asked the university for remote learning options. “What’s happening on campus is blatantly antisemitic,” he added.

“Columbia students organizing in solidarity with Palestine – including Jewish students – have faced harassment, doxxing, and now arrest by the NYPD. These are the main threats to the safety of Jewish Columbia students,” Jonathan Ben-Menachem, a Ph.D. student, told CNN.

 

[laughing dog]

Should universities allow harassing and intimidating environments for many students and severe disruptions to campus life?

Of course not.

But I would be wary of what a “ harassing and intimidating environment” means in university speak means.

Does it refer to deeds and speech a snowflake or a reasonable ( whatever that means) person or a stoic finds intimidating or harassment ?

I work at an university ( though not a large ine like Columbia) and IMO, Don’s description if “ semantic ambiguity “ is spot on.