Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't need to try to rebut the 90%. I am telling you that your trusted source is saying there is a civilian crisis.

The issue was Israel's performance compared to other countries.

I don't believe morally that is the issue nor the issue related to this thread. Indefinitely increasing slaughter and occupation of Palestinian people needs to end.

Then tell Hamas to release the hostages.

They appear to be about 6x better (even before considering human shields, friendly fire, and Hamas shooting up people) than anyone else. They redefined the bar, yet you think that's not good enough.

I don't believe your bar, nor does it matter.

So you don't care about the facts. It's just terrorists good, Jews bad.

And, yes, there is a civilian crisis--a crisis that is the result of actions those very civilians to this day support. If they think that's an acceptable price to massacre 1,200 Jews what authority do we have to tell them it's not?

Here's the deal. It wasn't unprovoked. There were 3 reasons for it: 1. A dumb religious reason, 2. Because of the occupation and killings, and 3. Because of imprisonments of Palestinians with no due process which itself amounts to kidnapping.

There's one reason: They're paid to do it.

And in some universe when the extremist Hamas is ordered to stand down upon condition of a free recognized Palestine and Israel is also forced to stand down there is a better future.

For Hamas to stand down is for it to become a nothing.

In the mean time, I don't care if a bunch of radical college kids draw attention to the reality of de facto, if not deliberate, ethnic cleansing and its need to end. Doing so CAN lead to a better world.

I'm sure you know what road is paved with good intentions. That's the road you're following.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Until Israel pulverizes the ability to launch attacks from Gaza,

You know that's impossible, right?

Yes I do. Which has a lot to do with dismissing claims about genocide.

What Israel can do is pound the Gazan military installations so hard that the rebuilding process takes more years to get done.
Which is really the goal. Possibly long enough for Muslim neighbors to get over the idea that violence is in their own best interests.
Tom

How can this be achieved without genocide?

By quitting slapping the "genocide" label on anything Israel does.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

FTFY. That behaviour isn't evil, or even manipulative. It's a rational response to an existential threat.

What existential threat was Gaza facing during the build up to and launching of the October 7 terrorist attack?
Tom

None. And I never so much as hinted that they were.

Perhaps you could read back and find out what behaviour it was to which I was referring in that post, before making a fool of yourself with further non-sequiturs (Hint: It wasn't the October 7 attack).

I just did.
You changed LP post and then referred to Hamas' use of embedding military installations amongst civilians as "a rational response to an existential threat".
Tom

So... nothing to do with the build up to, or launching of, the October 7 attack then. And in reference to Hamas, and not Gaza.

Glad to hear you admit your mistakes.

Thank you for making the distinction--you illustrate the problem well.

Peace is an existential threat to Hamas. That's why 10/7 happened.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How is 40,000 dead anything but genocidal violence? This is insanity.

How is it genocidal??

We don't hear the word "genocide" when Muslims kill 40,000 even if they're all innocents. And Gaza looks like about 1/3 combatants.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I don't need to try to rebut the 90%. I am telling you that your trusted source is saying there is a civilian crisis.

The issue was Israel's performance compared to other countries.

I don't believe morally that is the issue nor the issue related to this thread. Indefinitely increasing slaughter and occupation of Palestinian people needs to end.

Then tell Hamas to release the hostages.

It isn't only Hamas's choice as there have been ceasefire negotiations. Let's not pretend there is only ONE choice or NO choice. And certainly, the Israeli govt isn't actually prioritizing rescuing the hostages but instead destroying Hamas and factions within the government are also interested in taking the land afterward. So, let's not pretend it is 100% about the hostages.

They appear to be about 6x better (even before considering human shields, friendly fire, and Hamas shooting up people) than anyone else. They redefined the bar, yet you think that's not good enough.

I don't believe your bar, nor does it matter.

So you don't care about the facts. It's just terrorists good, Jews bad.

Do not paint me as not caring about facts since I do care about facts, just not what you BELIEVE are facts. And don't paint me as an anti-Semite either, that is insulting and UNTRUE.

And, yes, there is a civilian crisis--a crisis that is the result of actions those very civilians to this day support. If they think that's an acceptable price to massacre 1,200 Jews what authority do we have to tell them it's not?

Here's the deal. It wasn't unprovoked. There were 3 reasons for it: 1. A dumb religious reason, 2. Because of the occupation and killings, and 3. Because of imprisonments of Palestinians with no due process which itself amounts to kidnapping.

There's one reason: They're paid to do it.

That's bullshit. There has been a movement against Israel for decades and radicalization that has nothing to do with funding. When you isolate the variables, funding isn't much of a contribution to the existence of the movement against Israel on the lands there.

And in some universe when the extremist Hamas is ordered to stand down upon condition of a free recognized Palestine and Israel is also forced to stand down there is a better future.

For Hamas to stand down is for it to become a nothing.

Who cares if Hamas if Hamas becomes nothing? Not me. That's the point. You clearly have mistaken me for an anti-semite which is why you chose to insult me.

In the mean time, I don't care if a bunch of radical college kids draw attention to the reality of de facto, if not deliberate, ethnic cleansing and its need to end. Doing so CAN lead to a better world.

I'm sure you know what road is paved with good intentions. That's the road you're following.

So you don't have good intentions?????? WTF.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I,m out here at Umass Amherst and was talking to a campus cop this morning. Umass had an encampment last week that the administration had the cops dismantle it with a number of arrests.

It,s finals week out here and yesterday and today had no protests that I saw and Commencement is this saturday the 18th. The cop said their concern is attempts to disrupt commencement. He reminded me that the college class of 2024 was the high school class of 2020 who never got a proper graduation due to covid.

While I'm sympathetic to the Free Palestine point of view, i hope that the class of 2024 gets their graduation.

I enjoy walking around my old school but it sure makes me feel old. I was class of 1984, 40 years ago. I know many here are older than i am at 63 but being surrounded by 30,000 undergraduates kinda emphasises the difference.

oh boy! I'm catching up to you. My oldest is graduating in two weeks. Definitely feel old walking around her campus! It would be very disappointing for us if her commencement is cancelled (doubt that will happen). As an aside, I wonder what is the goal of the demonstrations? The same defense companies that make arms for Israel are also supplying arms for Ukrainians fighting for their lives. It's a damn shame that we have to have so much war today.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How is 40,000 dead anything but genocidal violence? This is insanity.

Perhaps you have your own meaning for genocide.
I don't think that 2% of a population, which is being used as human shields, remotely qualifies.
It is insanity, I'll agree. Too bad Gazans chose insanity over peace and prosperity.
Tom

Yeah, too bad all those babies chose to be born in Gaza after Hamas took over 18 years ago, instead of making the sensible, mature choice to the born in Canada or New Zealand.

Too bad their parents to this day think that 10/7 was the right course of action.

It's like those silly Jewish kids who chose to be born in Germany and Poland during the 1920s and 1930s. What were they thinking?

Anyway, this thread is about those college students who think Israel shouldn't be killing tens of thousands of civilians, and are willing to openly say so in a group demonstration on campus. You know, the ones who decry things like this:

No, they want to see good Jews. That is, dead ones.

Israeli airstrike on Rafah refugee camp in Gaza kills boy, 4, and his sister, 2

And before anyone starts kicking the stuffing out of that poor straw man again, that is not the same thing as supporting Hamas, or being pro-terrorism, or anti-Semitic, or any of that ridiculous Excluded Middle fallacy nonsense.

Being opposed to the slaughter of civilians does not mean being in favor of the slaughter of other civilians, although some posters do seem to think that way.

When your actions support the cause of terror you will be interpreted as supporting terrorism. If the bad guys are given immunity when they hide behind civilians you might as well just hand the world over to the bad guys.

Why is there barely a mention of the genocide and explicit ethnic cleansing in Sudan? Is it because it's being done by Iranian forces rather than Jews?

 

[Harry Bosch]

FTFY. That behaviour isn't evil, or even manipulative. It's a rational response to an existential threat.

What existential threat was Gaza facing during the build up to and launching of the October 7 terrorist attack?
Tom

None. And I never so much as hinted that they were.

Perhaps you could read back and find out what behaviour it was to which I was referring in that post, before making a fool of yourself with further non-sequiturs (Hint: It wasn't the October 7 attack).

I just did.
You changed LP post and then referred to Hamas' use of embedding military installations amongst civilians as "a rational response to an existential threat".
Tom

So... nothing to do with the build up to, or launching of, the October 7 attack then. And in reference to Hamas, and not Gaza.

Glad to hear you admit your mistakes.

Thank you for making the distinction--you illustrate the problem well.

Peace is an existential threat to Hamas. That's why 10/7 happened.

Yep, very correct. I think that 10.7 directly happened in order to stop the normalization between Israel and the other Arab countries.

 

[ZiprHead]

Until Israel pulverizes the ability to launch attacks from Gaza,

You know that's impossible, right?

Yes I do. Which has a lot to do with dismissing claims about genocide.

What Israel can do is pound the Gazan military installations so hard that the rebuilding process takes more years to get done.
Which is really the goal. Possibly long enough for Muslim neighbors to get over the idea that violence is in their own best interests.
Tom

How can this be achieved without genocide?

By quitting slapping the "genocide" label on anything Israel does.

Not answering the question.

 

[crazyfingers]

Another story from the UMass Daily Collegian on police conduct

Students allege brutal treatment by police following May 7 arrests

Many students are speaking out about their experience being arrested during the Gaza solidarity encampment on May 7, alleging injured limbs and being denied water and bathroom use.

dailycollegian.com

 

[aupmanyav]

"Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students"​

Good. Students should pay attention to studies rather than politics. Wars and conflicts in the world are not going to stop whatever the students do.

 

[TomC]

"Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students"​

Good. Students should pay attention to studies rather than politics. Wars and conflicts in the world are not going to stop whatever the students do.

OMG

Aup ?

Cool. Good to see you!
Columbus

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How is 40,000 dead anything but genocidal violence? This is insanity.

Perhaps you have your own meaning for genocide.
I don't think that 2% of a population, which is being used as human shields, remotely qualifies.
It is insanity, I'll agree. Too bad Gazans chose insanity over peace and prosperity.
Tom

It doesn't have to be genocide to be a war crime. I agree, Politese is using the word genocide inappropriately. Much like I think you are inappropriately handwaving the significance of the loss of 40,000 people. As if that won't have consequences down the road regarding Israeli security.

It will improve Israeli security. You are presenting a wife-beating position--namely, that Israeli actions drive the terror. No, Iranian actions drive the terror.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

...used Gazans as human shields. I call that a war crime.

If Israel has done it would you call it a war crime, too? I'm not saying you wouldn't. I am asking.

Where is there any meaningful example of Israel using human shield tactics?

The closest I'm aware of is using locals to go knock on doors, but they're being used as messengers, not as shields.

There also is the issue of having the homeowner demonstrate the safety of the house but they should know if it's unsafe. If Hamas has booby-trapped it it's going to be gone anyway.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

...used Gazans as human shields. I call that a war crime.

If Israel has done it would you call it a war crime, too? I'm not saying you wouldn't. I am asking.

Under the same circumstances, absolutely.
Under only slightly different circumstances, maybe and maybe not.
But with the history, I don't think it's even possible to have the same circumstances.
Tom

Here is how that comes across: when people I don't like do it, it's a war crime, but when people I like do it, well, those are different circumstances. What I expect instead: here are my a priori, objective rules for when it's a war crime and when it's not, completely independent of having looked up circumstances of when which people did what and based completely reasonably on logic.

Apply the Geneva standards.

Specific acts, not merely an assertion that they were bad. The number dead is evidence of war, not evidence of war crime.

 

[aupmanyav]

OMG
Aup ?

Cool. Good to see you!
Columbus

Yeah, Aup. here. Greetings. Returning to the forum after a long time.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here is how that comes across: when people I don't like do it, it's a war crime, but when people I like do it, well, those are different circumstances.

I completely agree.
In what way are we disagreeing?

So, what objective rules do you think exist distinguishing between the behavior of Gazans and Israel?
I try to apply the same rules and more importantly the same ethics and morality.

https://www.btselem.org/human_shields

Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, Israeli security forces have repeatedly used Palestinians in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip as human shields, ordering them to perform military tasks that risked their lives. As part of this policy, soldiers have ordered Palestinian civilians to remove suspicious objects from roads, to tell people to come out of their homes so the military can arrest them, to stand in front of soldiers while the latter shoot from behind them, and more. The Palestinian civilians were chosen at random for these tasks, and could not refuse the demand placed on them by armed soldiers.


...

Btselem is not a credible source--they severely cherry-pick their reporting.

Remove suspicious objects from roads? If it's a harmless object, remove it. If it's booby trapped, say so, Israel destroys it. In neither scenario are they in danger.

Likewise, delivering a message. How does that put anyone in harm's way?

Having them stand in front of soldiers would be a war crime--but how about some specifics about what exactly happened? I do not trust Btselem one bit and I have not heard that allegation before.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How is 40,000 dead anything but genocidal violence? This is insanity.

Perhaps you have your own meaning for genocide.
I don't think that 2% of a population, which is being used as human shields, remotely qualifies.
It is insanity, I'll agree. Too bad Gazans chose insanity over peace and prosperity.
Tom

It doesn't have to be genocide to be a war crime. I agree, Politese is using the word genocide inappropriately. Much like I think you are inappropriately handwaving the significance of the loss of 40,000 people. As if that won't have consequences down the road regarding Israeli security.

It will improve Israeli security. You are presenting a wife-beating position--namely, that Israeli actions drive the terror. No, Iranian actions drive the terror.

Killing civilians is wrong. Killing tens of thousands of Gazans makes it easier for Iran to convince a young hopeless teen to strap a bomb onto themselves.

What is unfortunate is you seem to hold Palestinians with nothing but contempt. It is much easier to accept the deaths of people one doesn't human.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas and Gazans?

The ones carrying guns, kidnapping people etc are likely Hamas. Others may or may not be. I do not believe that most Gazans support Hamas’ actions.
Likewise the Israelis carrying guns, arresting and killing people are probably IDF. Others may or may not be, since military service is required in Israel as I understand. I do not believe most Israelis support Bibi’s actions.

You not believing doesn't make it so.

A new poll: https://pcpsr.org/en/node/963

Still 57% think 10/7 was the right course of action.

 

[barbos]

The only two free and fair elections won in your country

Care to name them?

So you dispute there are any free and fair elections in Russia? Thanks. We finally have something we can agree on.

I don't dispute anything, I merely want you to answer my question.