Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[bilby]

That's always the answer, isn't it? Don't like a school policy? Find another school. Don't like your pay or working conditions? Find another job. Ironic coming from a guy who regularly complains about the neighborhood he lives it. Maybe it's not so easy to just leave your school, work, home. Maybe we all have our particular circumstances that preclude us from bopping around the country looking for nirvana.

It's easy for them; They aren't really people, they're just extras.

Obviously it would be hugely disruptive and impractical for us. We are real people, with complex and intricate lives. But they are just background. They can just find another school that better suits their single agendum.

Balancing priorities is hard; It must be so much easier for them, they only ever have one issue to consider, being unidimensional as they are. Lucky bastards.

 

[bilby]

I kinda had a feeling Steve might have been taking liberties with the word anarchy.

For that purpose, it is probably the best suited word in the whole English language.

 

[lpetrich]

If you do not like the policy pf a school leave and go someplace else.

That's always the answer, isn't it? Don't like a school policy? Find another school. Don't like your pay or working conditions? Find another job. Ironic coming from a guy who regularly complains about the neighborhood he lives it. Maybe it's not so easy to just leave your school, work, home. Maybe we all have our particular circumstances that preclude us from bopping around the country looking for nirvana.

Also, doing so is not an instantaneous, cost-free action, contrary to what some people seem to think. It may also not be possible to find the perfect school, the perfect employer, etc.

Also, these loud yellers of "Love it or leave it!" don't seem to do that themselves. Why might that be?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Jewish voices struggle to find words of reconciliation in face of campus violence

At universities such as UCLA, where students from diverse backgrounds live, study and debate together, the clashes have been particularly extreme. Progressive Jewish leaders are seeking a middle ground that respects the humanity on both sides of the conflict.

www.latimes.com

 

[Bomb#20]

That's always the answer, isn't it? Don't like a school policy? Find another school. Don't like your pay or working conditions? Find another job. Ironic coming from a guy who regularly complains about the neighborhood he lives it. Maybe it's not so easy to just leave your school, work, home. Maybe we all have our particular circumstances that preclude us from bopping around the country looking for nirvana.

It's easy for them; They aren't really people, they're just extras.

Obviously it would be hugely disruptive and impractical for us. We are real people, with complex and intricate lives. But they are just background. They can just find another school that better suits their single agendum.

Balancing priorities is hard; It must be so much easier for them, they only ever have one issue to consider, being unidimensional as they are. Lucky bastards.

That is such a strawman! Steve did not claim it was easy. Whether it's easy is irrelevant. When a customer who doesn't like the service he bought reacts by trying to force all the other customers not to get the service they paid for too, telling that customer to take his business elsewhere does not treat him as not a real person. It treats him as what he is: a real person who is a real selfish jerk, a real person who really ought to leave. You know who's really treating "them" as extras? It's the real people tearing down the photos of "them" that were put up by "their" supporters after "they" were kidnapped by vicious thugs.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Hundreds of faculty, staff pledge to strike from activities that ‘directly serve the administration’ until NYPD is removed from campus

Hundreds of faculty and staff across Columbia, Barnard, and Teachers College have signed onto a strike, pledging to “only do work that directly serves students” until the New York Police Department is removed from campus, faculty members announced in a Friday morning press conference.

www.columbiaspectator.com

 

[Copernicus]

Hundreds of faculty, staff pledge to strike from activities that ‘directly serve the administration’ until NYPD is removed from campus

Hundreds of faculty and staff across Columbia, Barnard, and Teachers College have signed onto a strike, pledging to “only do work that directly serves students” until the New York Police Department is removed from campus, faculty members announced in a Friday morning press conference.

www.columbiaspectator.com

I've worked on the faculty in all three colleges, so I suppose that on strike is where I would be today, if I were still there. There was no possibility for online classes back in 1970, when I was still at Ohio State, although we did meet at the homes of some of the professors for graduate seminars, during our campus disturbances. Campus unrest was over by the time I was hired to work at Columbia.

Before I was hired by the Columbia Corporation, we had a similar situation at Ohio State University, where occupation by the Ohio National Guard on campus got very intense after the Kent State shootings. I was a graduate teaching assistant in 1970 when the faculty went on strike. It was literally impossible to conduct teaching in classrooms at that time, so the faculty voted to strike, as well. in the Spring of 1970. I remember going into the classroom and writing "On Strike" on the blackboard, as the class was called off. After that, things got so bad on campus that they were forced to call off classes and shut down the university, much to the dismay of the administration and the governor (who had illegally declared martial law, although everyone thought he had the authority at the time).

I would still maintain that campus unrest back then was far more serious and disruptive than it is now. Polarization in the general population was also worse. My roommate had a brother attending Ohio State at the time. He told me that his conservative father felt that they should have shot more students, even though his son liked to wear the same buckskin jacket that one of the slain students was wearing. I had another friend who left for Canada rather than be drafted, and his father called the FBI to have his son arrested. (Of course, that wasn't going to happen before he had actually done anything to evade the draft.) When I went onto campus during occupation by the National Guard troops, we had to show ID and were forbidden to congregate in groups of more than 3 people. The right to free speech was suspended, as were other civil rights. Months later, a court determined that the governor did not have the right to declare martial law, so "never mind".

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Hundreds of faculty, staff pledge to strike from activities that ‘directly serve the administration’ until NYPD is removed from campus

Hundreds of faculty and staff across Columbia, Barnard, and Teachers College have signed onto a strike, pledging to “only do work that directly serves students” until the New York Police Department is removed from campus, faculty members announced in a Friday morning press conference.

www.columbiaspectator.com

I've worked on the faculty in all three colleges, so I suppose that on strike is where I would be today, if I were still there. There was no possibility for online classes back in 1970, when I was still at Ohio State, although we did meet at the homes of some of the professors for graduate seminars, during our campus disturbances. Campus unrest was over by the time I was hired to work at Columbia.

Before I was hired by the Columbia Corporation, we had a similar situation at Ohio State University, where occupation by the Ohio National Guard on campus got very intense after the Kent State shootings. I was a graduate teaching assistant in 1970 when the faculty went on strike. It was literally impossible to conduct teaching in classrooms at that time, so the faculty voted to strike, as well. in the Spring of 1970. I remember going into the classroom and writing "On Strike" on the blackboard, as the class was called off. After that, things got so bad on campus that they were forced to call off classes and shut down the university, much to the dismay of the administration and the governor (who had illegally declared martial law, although everyone thought he had the authority at the time).

I would still maintain that campus unrest back then was far more serious and disruptive than it is now. Polarization in the general population was also worse. My roommate had a brother attending Ohio State at the time. He told me that his conservative father felt that they should have shot more students, even though his son liked to wear the same buckskin jacket that one of the slain students was wearing. I had another friend who left for Canada rather than be drafted, and his father called the FBI to have his son arrested. (Of course, that wasn't going to happen before he had actually done anything to evade the draft.) When I went onto campus during occupation by the National Guard troops, we had to show ID and were forbidden to congregate in groups of more than 3 people. The right to free speech was suspended, as were other civil rights. Months later, a court determined that the governor did not have the right to declare martial law, so "never mind".

That information is appreciated.

My impression and I could be wrong: Vietnam protesting also included opposition to a draft and a broad cultural movement (including music). Again, I could be totally wrong, but I predict that continued US involvement, especially if we get sucked into this on the ground, would transform into a more broadly defined opposition, making the current college protests look quite small in comparison.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Regarding some professors, some of which we've already read, but not all:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/11/us/professors-campus-arrests-invs/index.html

Dozens of professors among those arrested in campus protests

(CNN) As police cracked down on anti-war protests on college campuses across the US in recent weeks, among those arrested were a pair of silver-haired 65-year-old professors armed only with their cell phones.

Annelise Orleck was knocked to the ground and restrained with plastic handcuffs at a protest at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire. She later complained of whiplash.

Steve Tamari was tackled by officers and taken into custody at a demonstration at Washington University in St. Louis, an attack he said resulted in multiple broken ribs and a broken hand.

Each had been filming the protests in the moments before they were arrested. Both Orleck, who is Jewish, and Tamari, who is Palestinian American, said they were motivated to attend in part by a desire to support student protesters exercising their right to free speech.

Their stories illustrate a facet of the student-led protests that has received comparatively little attention: The role professors have played in the demonstrations, and the response by their administrations and police.

Orleck and Tamari are among at least 50 professors arrested at campus protests across the country...

Johns Hopkins University

University, protesters reach agreement to end Homewood campus encampment

Student protesters agree to remove encampment on Sunday, May 12; university promises a timely review of divestment question and to conclude encampment-related student conduct proceedings

hub.jhu.edu

 

[Copernicus]

My impression and I could be wrong: Vietnam protesting also included opposition to a draft and a broad cultural movement (including music). Again, I could be totally wrong, but I predict that continued US involvement, especially if we get sucked into this on the ground, would transform into a more broadly defined opposition, making the current college protests look quite small in comparison.

I doubt that the current protests will get much worse or approach what we saw in the 1960s and 1970s. The draft was a huge factor, because people were being sent involuntarily to fight in a war that everyone knew we could not win. They allowed the news media to film caskets and body bags being offloaded from ships, which they stopped doing for later wars, and that was something that caught people's attention. It wasn't about what was happening to people in some other country far away. It was about us. Even the National Guard troops on campuses were full of draft dodgers--young men who volunteered in the belief that they would not be sent to Vietnam. Some were deployed to support combat and a few lives lost anyway, but it was rare. Dan Quayle and GW Bush were famous draft dodgers in that sense, because their political connections protected them from the draft as members of the National Guard. The official name for that kind of draft dodging was called "channeling" by the Selective Service System. They set up deferments to populate certain occupations considered of value to the government, like agriculture, defense industry, and the priesthood or other religious ministries. Catholic seminaries had to turn people away. Getting into the National Guard became extremely difficult, so having wealth or political connections helped. Donald Trump had magical bone spurs to keep him safe.

 

[Derec]

Time Magazine "terrorist chic" cover:

 

[Derec]

Perhaps they too have a seriously sick sense of what constitutes "fun".

Are you really conflating arson with making a joke?

 

[Derec]

Actually, for the most part, the protesters have been peaceful.

Kind of like the claim that for the most part the 2020 rioters were "peaceful" despite billions of dollars in damage and several dead left in their wake? These Hamas protests have not reached that level of peacefulness, luckily.

There has been no evidence of anarchy, but there have been the usual brief outbreaks of violence and intimidation, especially when the universe announced that they would not meet the protesters' divestment demands.

I.e. either colleges cave to the "kauft nicht bei Juden" demands, or the pro-Hamas students unleash violence and intimidation. And colleges are somehow bad guys when they call in police?

 

[Derec]

During the riots in Seattle a group unannounced waked out on I5 in the middle of traffic. A woman was hit by a car and died. The family sued the city and police for not protect the girl.

I remember that case. One young woman died, another was severely injured. The driver was just a local idiot who ignored the highway being closed and drove the wrong way for a shortcut. He got 6.5 years in the slammer.
Seattle driver who killed Black Lives Matter protester on I-5 sentenced to prison

I do not see why the city should be culpable here. They should have cleared the blockade, sure, but the death/injuries were caused primarily by the driver, and there is secondary culpability for the protesters for blocking the interstate.

 

[Derec]

Isolated incidents of violence are not riots, and the vast majority of college students behave like adults. Nobody is arguing that anyone has a constitutional right to disrupt and occupy private property.

There have been those who defended Columbia students taking over the quad and even breaking into and occupying Hamilton Hall. Fire Marshal Jamaal for sure, and on here I think Politesse was very supportive of all actions by the students and has opposed police being called in.

It is important that the police and national guard find ways to work with protest leaders to isolate and remove the more violent elements in the crowd.

What happens when these "protest leaders" are supportive of violence and/or are ACAB/FTP types who refuse to collaborate with police else they be excommunicated from the radical movement?

 

[Copernicus]

Actually, for the most part, the protesters have been peaceful.

Kind of like the claim that for the most part the 2020 rioters were "peaceful" despite billions of dollars in damage and several dead left in their wake? These Hamas protests have not reached that level of peacefulness, luckily.

No, it isn't. The 2020 rioters included a conspiracy to overturn the results of a presidential election by occupying the Capitol Building while the Senate was carrying out a Constitutional function, not just some kind of campus protest. People were killed during the 2020 riots, and Capitol police sustained a lot of injuries in their attempt to keep elected representatives in the House and Senate safe. The former involved much more serious crimes than occupying a building on a college campus in which nobody died.

There has been no evidence of anarchy, but there have been the usual brief outbreaks of violence and intimidation, especially when the universe announced that they would not meet the protesters' divestment demands.

I.e. either colleges cave to the "kauft nicht bei Juden" demands, or the pro-Hamas students unleash violence and intimidation. And colleges are somehow bad guys when they call in police?

The protesters were overwhelmingly opposed to the violence being carried out by the IDF against Palestinian civilians. They were not there to support Hamas or promote hatred of Jews. Your disingenuous attacks are obvious and despicable.

 

[laughing dog]

Actually, for the most part, the protesters have been peaceful.

Kind of like the claim that for the most part the 2020 rioters were "peaceful" despite billions of dollars in damage and several dead left in their wake? These Hamas protests have not reached that level of peacefulness, luckily.

There has been no evidence of anarchy, but there have been the usual brief outbreaks of violence and intimidation, especially when the universe announced that they would not meet the protesters' divestment demands.

I.e. either colleges cave to the "kauft nicht bei Juden" demands, or the pro-Hamas students unleash violence and intimidation. And colleges are somehow bad guys when they call in police?

ideally, in order to accept your handwaved analysis as accurate, you’d need
the number of protests, the number of these protests that ended peacefully without any “ caving in”, how many protests ended peacefully after “caving in”, how many protests ended with violence after not “caving in”, and how many ended in violence with caving in or no demands.

Since I doubt that level of detail exists, I’d settle for the proportion of protests that were peaceful. I know the big ones with violence get tge media attention, but there were and are plenty without violence or any demands.

Without data, I’d have to say your rhetoric reveals more about your views than what is occurring .

 

[Arctish]

Actually, for the most part, the protesters have been peaceful.

Kind of like the claim that for the most part the 2020 rioters were "peaceful" despite billions of dollars in damage and several dead left in their wake? These Hamas protests have not reached that level of peacefulness, luckily.

There has been no evidence of anarchy, but there have been the usual brief outbreaks of violence and intimidation, especially when the universe announced that they would not meet the protesters' divestment demands.

I.e. either colleges cave to the "kauft nicht bei Juden" demands, or the pro-Hamas students unleash violence and intimidation. And colleges are somehow bad guys when they call in police?

ideally, in order to accept your handwaved analysis as accurate, you’d need
the number of protests, the number of these protests that ended peacefully without any “ caving in”, how many protests ended peacefully after “caving in”, how many protests ended with violence after not “caving in”, and how many ended in violence with caving in or no demands.

Since I doubt that level of detail exists, I’d settle for the proportion of protests that were peaceful. I know the big ones with violence get tge media attention, but there were and are plenty without violence or any demands.

Without data, I’d have to say your rhetoric reveals more about your views than what is occurring .

Also, we'd need to see the breakdown between the protesters who are actually pro-Hamas and the ones who are not, and not just accept that hot load of bullshit conflating them.

Remember, the guy who shouted "Kill the Jews!" at one of the campus protests is pro-Israel. So is the guy posting Nazi slogans in this thread.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Harvard students end protest as university agrees to discuss Middle East conflict

Anti-war protesters have taken down their tents in Harvard Yard after the university agreed to meet to discuss their demands

abcnews.go.com

 

[crazyfingers]

I,m out here at Umass Amherst and was talking to a campus cop this morning. Umass had an encampment last week that the administration had the cops dismantle it with a number of arrests.

It,s finals week out here and yesterday and today had no protests that I saw and Commencement is this saturday the 18th. The cop said their concern is attempts to disrupt commencement. He reminded me that the college class of 2024 was the high school class of 2020 who never got a proper graduation due to covid.

While I'm sympathetic to the Free Palestine point of view, i hope that the class of 2024 gets their graduation.

I enjoy walking around my old school but it sure makes me feel old. I was class of 1984, 40 years ago. I know many here are older than i am at 63 but being surrounded by 30,000 undergraduates kinda emphasises the difference.