Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[Arctish]

...used Gazans as human shields. I call that a war crime.

If Israel has done it would you call it a war crime, too? I'm not saying you wouldn't. I am asking.

Where is there any meaningful example of Israel using human shield tactics?

The closest I'm aware of is using locals to go knock on doors, but they're being used as messengers, not as shields.

There also is the issue of having the homeowner demonstrate the safety of the house but they should know if it's unsafe. If Hamas has booby-trapped it it's going to be gone anyway.

Obviously you haven't been reading the articles linked in this thread. You should take some time to catch up.

Also, don't forget to support your claims. You've got quite a backlog of unsupported assertions to deal with before you go making new ones.

 

[Elixir]

You not believing doesn't make it so.

A 57% poll to the contrary doesn’t make most people think 10/7 was the “right” thing to do.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm talking about the here and now. Who is being accused of war crimes in thread?
Israel or Gaza?
Tom

I would say both. Nobody has been minimizing atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists, but you have been repeatedly framing critics of Israel's response to 10-7 as excusing those atrocities. For example, you just said this to me:

Nobody minimizing???

More like outright denying. People admit 10/7, they keep denying that Hamas is killing people in Gaza.

Who in this thread would you consider a "terrorist apologist"? Me? Elixir? Arctish? I don't see anyone here being a terrorist apologist, but you clearly imply that that is who you are trying to have a conversation with. Just because we criticize Netanyahu's horrific response to Oct. 7, that doesn't mean we've joined the cause of Hamas terrorists.

Anyone who says Hamas' actions were due to Israel is a terrorist apologist.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Answer the fucking question Tom.
And while you’re at it, is killiing 10x as many civilians an appropriate response?
Y/N

Irrelevant. This isn't about how many killed. It's about destroying Hamas. Israel isn't looking for kills, they're looking to remove Hamas. The reality of war is that removing them usually means killing them but that's not the objective.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, how about we place the blame where it belongs?

Egypt is not where it belongs. The Egyptians did not force Palestinians out of their communities in and around Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Ashkelon to become homeless refugees in Gaza. Neither did Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the rest of the 'Arab world'.

Try again.

The Arab world encouraged the Palestinians to leave in advance of their attack. Oops, they lost and when they wouldn't swear to be peaceful they weren't allowed to return.

And Egypt annexed Gaza (and Jordan annexed the West Bank) so that the Palestinians couldn't have a state. Note that both of these annexations were undone after the 1967 war--it's not that the countries wanted the land, it's that they wanted the Palestinians not to have it.

It was Israel's Zionist founders and their successors who did that.

During the 1947–1949 Palestine war around 400 Palestinian Arab towns and villages were forcibly depopulated, with a majority being destroyed and left uninhabitable.[1][2] Today these locations are all in Israel; many of the locations were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, with their place names replaced with Hebrew place names.

Wikipedia, deceptive as usual on things like this.

An overwhelming number of the Arab residents who had lived in the cities that became a part of Israel and were renamed (Acre, Haifa, Safad, Tiberias, Ashkelon, Beersheba, Jaffa and Beisan) fled or were expelled.

Note the actual count is fled or expelled. The vast majority fled at Arab behest. And somehow that list has far more massacres than have otherwise been reported in that time.

Zionists refused to allow Palestinians to return to their former farms, businesses, homes, and communities because they were, and are, racist and religiously bigoted as fuck. They created a State for Jews, and Jews alone. They don't give a shit how many generations of Palestinians lived in those towns. They wanted the non-Jews gone, and they did their best to make it so.

They refused to allow people who continued to side with the enemy to return.

Refuse to acknowledge that simple truth all you want, it's still the truth. The 'Arab world' does not bear responsibility for the conditions in Gaza. The country that controls the borders, the water and electrical grid, the importation of food, medicine, building materials, school books, etc. , the movements of people into and out of Gaza, and where the natural gas from Gazan deposits is sent, is responsible.

It most certainly does bear responsibility. It's the Arab world that ensured they couldn't function. It's the Muslim world that funds the war.

Palestine used to be the most prosperous non-oil Arab country in the world. They threw that away on the Second Intifada. Their choice, not Israel's.

Israel is not trying to murder Palestinians.

Israel as a whole, no. Certain Israelis, though? It appears that some of them are. I'd be willing to bet every penny in my bank account that the sniper who shot the grandma holding the hand of a 5-year old waving a white flag was trying to murder her. Possibly the guys who shot the escaping hostages and the ones who killed the paramedics from Ramallah who had permission to rescue that 4 year old girl trapped in a car with her dead relatives.

But the sniper was probably Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think step one is a ceasefire.

Easy enough--Hamas releases the hostages, they'll get a ceasefire.

Step two is a negotiated transfer of power, because right now the Gaza authorities are Hamas. It will be difficult but not impossible to get something resembling moderates in charge and the price will probably be amnesty for the surviving Hamas leaders, but at some point even the most ardent zealots are going to have to admit their position is untenable.

Step two shows an utter lack of understanding of the situation.

Iran's position is fine. And they're the ones in control.

Step three is a normalization of Gaza's relationships with other countries, including control of coastal waters and airspace, control of its borders, receiving royalties on resources extracted in Gazan waters, etc. , and a genuine possibility of prosperity. If the Gazans want Jared Kushner to develop their seafront into high end resorts and condominiums, that's fine. But if Kushner tries to screw them over, it could reignite the war, so IMO it's best to keep him out of the real estate business there.

They had that until they threw it away with the Second Intifada. By their measure destroying Israel is more important than their wellbeing.

 

[Copernicus]

I'm talking about the here and now. Who is being accused of war crimes in thread?
Israel or Gaza?
Tom

I would say both. Nobody has been minimizing atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists, but you have been repeatedly framing critics of Israel's response to 10-7 as excusing those atrocities. For example, you just said this to me:

Nobody minimizing???

More like outright denying. People admit 10/7, they keep denying that Hamas is killing people in Gaza.

Maybe I was wrong. Tom didn't answer, so I'll ask you. Who in this thread is outright denying and keeps denying that Hamas is killing people in Gaza? If you can't answer that, then I will assume that you agree with me that no one is doing that.

Who in this thread would you consider a "terrorist apologist"? Me? Elixir? Arctish? I don't see anyone here being a terrorist apologist, but you clearly imply that that is who you are trying to have a conversation with. Just because we criticize Netanyahu's horrific response to Oct. 7, that doesn't mean we've joined the cause of Hamas terrorists.

Anyone who says Hamas' actions were due to Israel is a terrorist apologist.

And who would that be in your opinion? Which ones of us have been saying that Hamas's terrorism on October 7 was justified by Israeli behavior?

 

[aupmanyav]

Anyone who says Hamas' actions were due to Israel is a terrorist apologist.

That is debatable.

 

[laughing dog]

Answer the fucking question Tom.
And while you’re at it, is killiing 10x as many civilians an appropriate response?
Y/N

Irrelevant. This isn't about how many killed.

It is about how many and who is being killed as well as Israel’s security. For many members of the human race, Israel’s need for security does not give them carte blanche in meting out destruction, misery and death.

That has nothing to do with the approval of terrorism of any stripe by anyone for any reason. It has to do with basic human decency and dignity.

Because college age youth tend to be more idealistic and more emphatic towards human suffering, it is unsurprising that there are protests about the USA supplying resources and supporting such destruction and misery.

What is a tad surprising is the over reaction on the part of well respected universities to overwhelmingly peaceful protests so close to the end of the term.

 

[Elixir]

This isn't about how many killed. It's about destroying Hamas

Oh, then never mind. Just nuke the entire region. Problem solved.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There will be no peace in a world where Hammas has power anywhere

Yeah and Bibi has known that the entire time he has been handing them millions.
It is not in Bibi’s interest to let one minute arrive where Israel is not in a hyper vigilant state of near emergency, lest he be ousted and jailed.

And once again the world falls for Hamas PR.

Yes, Israel supported Hamas for a while, trying to make an alternative to Fatah. It's just as Fatah and the PLO weakened the terror money needed a new puppet and they took over Hamas.

The fundamental issue is the terror money. So long as that exists the terror will exist, regardless of what label the group may bear.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Palestinians don’t have to be poor. If they stopped using all their energy on attacking Israel, then perhaps they can make some money. Like they did before Isarel handed over control to the PA

That analysis is a combination of ignorance and wishful thinking. In Gaza, the resources put into missiles, tunnels and weapons were given for missiles, tunnels and weapons. Nor is it clear that even if Gaza had been peaceful, without trust, it is not clear that the gov't of Israel would have allowed the necessary resource flows and opportunity.

Palestinians in the West Bank are poor for a number of reasons, none of which have to do with resources put into missiles, tunnels and weapons.

None are so blind as those who do not want to see.

The situation you say couldn't exist did exist--and was thrown away in the Second Intifada because the terror leaders couldn't accept prosperity. If the people have options other than combat they'll take them.

 

[Elixir]

And once again the world falls for Hamas PR.

That's not "Hamas PR".
On 21 November 2019, Netanyahu was officially indicted for breach of trust, accepting bribes, and fraud.
Hamas did not do that. But if Bibi leaves office he will have to answer for it.
HE DOES NOT WANT TO ANSWER FOR IT.
According to that famous Hamas publication FORBES MAGAZINE:

"Netanyahu's essential problem is that when he leaves office, he is likely going to jail."

We sure are awash in "Hamas PR", right Loren?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hammas is doing their best to put Palestinian civilians in harms way.

Okay, here's where I see a disconnect. TomC wants to view them as one and the same, interchangeable and co-responsible.
I think that accepting that also implies that every Israeli civilian is a combatant complicit in Bibi's genocide and is a valid target for elimination.

The average adult inhabitant of Gaza considers the 10/7 massacre a good thing despite what has happened to them since. And I see the eternal use of "genocide" in reference to Israeli actions to be wife-beating.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

Yes, "support". 57% say the 10/7 massacre was the right thing despite the consequences. Hamas is doing the will of the people!

 

[Elixir]

Hamas is doing the will of the people!

Who conducted the poll?
What is the margin of error?
Is 57% a number worth eradicating the other 43% (if the poll was accurate)?

This isn't about how many killed. It's about destroying Hamas

Oh, then never mind. Just nuke the entire region. Problem solved.

Right?

"Netanyahu's essential problem is that when he leaves office, he is likely going to jail."
-Forbes ("Hamas Magazine")

None are so blind as those who will not see.
Bibi does not want peace, he NEEDS a never-ending emergency.
He wants peace like Trump wants a fair election.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They would have to be allowed to prosper. No more Zionist seizing of productive farmland, no more destruction of Palestinian wells or diverting of Palestinian water to Israel, no more Israeli settlements built in the West Bank, no more interference with the importing or exporting of material goods, no more fuckery by cutting off electricity to Gaza, or closing the borders without notice, or preventing foreign aid from reaching people, no more diverting natural gas from Palestinian territorial waters to Israel, or mining Palestinian minerals for transfer to Israel without paying royalties, etc. ,etc.

How about some reality?

Destruction of Palestinian wells? Hamas.

Diverting water? No, Hamas is using well pipe for rockets.

Interference with imports/exports? So long as it's not military or dual use it can freely be imported, Israel just checks to see that it is what it's supposed to be. Dual-use has been permitted in an environment of ensuring it went to it's intended purpose but the invasion has revealed at least 10% diversion so I expect we will see more restrictions.

Cutting off electricity? Tends to happen when you don't pay the power bill. And it especially tends to happen when Hamas shoots up the wires. Israel won't send out line crews until the shooting stops.

Closing the border without notice? Once again, Hamas. Fling some mortars at the crossing, the people take cover, the crossing is closed.

Preventing foreign aid? What legitimate aid has been blocked?? There was nothing but trash on the flagship of that flotilla. It wasn't about aid, it was about trying to get things in without inspection.

Diverting natural gas? This is a dispute about exactly where the boundary lies, I don't know enough about the situation to be able to evaluate the competing claims. The border point on land is clear, the question is what angle the line should be projected into the sea, and the two sides have different projections.

Mining? This is the first I've heard this claim, what are you talking about?

Israel has to either back off and allow Palestinians to prosper (Two State solution) or go for the One State solution and commit to treating every person with the same level of justice, fairness, and support regardless of whether they're Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Neo-pagan, or whatever.

Israel would accept a peaceful two-state. The Palestinians will not accept a two-state, nor will they be peaceful.

The only other alternatives are the Rogue State solution (commit genocide) or the Failed State option in which Israel is defeated and dismantled.

You say the "rogue state" option causes genocide but fail to mention that the "failed state" option is even more of a genocide.

The suicide bombings went from a problem to rare after that wall came up. I think, for the safety of all Israelis (Jews and Muslims) that the wall stays

Fine, as long as it is built along the Armistice Line that Israel, the Palestinians, and the international community recognized as Israel's borders when the Oslo Accords were negotiated, and Israelis stay on their side of it.

I doubt the rightwing Zionist faction led by Netanyahu would agree to that. They will have to be defeated at the polls before there's a realistic chance that a separation wall will solve anything.

This is a fool-me-twice type thing.

Israel pulled completely out of Gaza and built a barrier. While that basically stopped the suicide bombings it does nothing about rocket fire and other such things. A huge cost (both economically and politically) to Israel and it made the overall situation worse--in the West Bank you never see more than light infantry operations, in Gaza you see armor, artillery and air power.

Now you are asking them to do the same thing again on a far bigger scale.

That is not a plan for peace.

Neither is genocide, if that's what you're suggesting as an alternative.

Lol, genocide. Israel is the only side in this conflict not trying to carry out a genocide

I suggest you try reading up a bit on Hammas

There will be no peace in a world where Hammas has power anywhere

I suggest you read up on my posts in this thread.

We have--and can see they are based on some major misunderstandings of the situation on the ground.

You're looking at this through a filter of Israel must be the guilty party and handwaving away anything that disagrees with this.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And there's no way to distinguish between someone who actively supports Hamas without joining and "official" members, whatever that means.

A five year old cannot be meaningfully called a member of a terrorist group.

Absolutely not. But they can, and are, used as human shields by Gazan leadership and you know it.
Tom

A child dragged in front of a soldier as a blockade for bullets is a human shield. A child living in the house they live in is not a human shield. Everyone fucking grows up somewhere, Tom. There's a reason the deliberate targeting of civilians is called a war crime.

When an enemy commander chooses to remain in his house rather than in a military facility during times of war that makes the child living in said house a human shield.

And when the child is living in the house from which fire is coming it makes them a human shield.

The only side deliberately targeting civilians is Hamas.

 

[Politesse]

And there's no way to distinguish between someone who actively supports Hamas without joining and "official" members, whatever that means.

A five year old cannot be meaningfully called a member of a terrorist group.

Absolutely not. But they can, and are, used as human shields by Gazan leadership and you know it.
Tom

A child dragged in front of a soldier as a blockade for bullets is a human shield. A child living in the house they live in is not a human shield. Everyone fucking grows up somewhere, Tom. There's a reason the deliberate targeting of civilians is called a war crime.

When an enemy commander chooses to remain in his house rather than in a military facility during times of war that makes the child living in said house a human shield.

And when the child is living in the house from which fire is coming it makes them a human shield.

The only side deliberately targeting civilians is Hamas.

I hope you'll keep your proposed rules of engagement in mind when China invades. Any veteran's family is a combatant? Half our population will be dead, but at least no war crimes will have been committed.

Also, you realize this disincentivizes laying down arms, right? If you try to leave the fight and go home, we'll kill your family as punishment.

 

[TomC]

And once again the world falls for Hamas PR.

That's not "Hamas PR".
On 21 November 2019, Netanyahu was officially indicted for breach of trust, accepting bribes, and fraud.
Hamas did not do that. But if Bibi leaves office he will have to answer for it.
HE DOES NOT WANT TO ANSWER FOR IT.
According to that famous Hamas publication FORBES MAGAZINE:

"Netanyahu's essential problem is that when he leaves office, he is likely going to jail."

We sure are awash in "Hamas PR", right Loren?

I understand that.
What I do not know is how that actually impacts the situation. I think Trump should have been taken directly from the White House to the DC holding cells while the Justice Department sorted out the details. We both know how that worked out.

It also implies that Netanyahu's successor would be notably different. I don't know that either. They might be more hardcore than he is.
Tom