Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[Arctish]

You can wave your hands till the cows come home, spraying that stuff in close proximity to other people is still assault.

Show me case law where a person was charged with assault in NY for spraying something like this "in close proximity" to people.
But then again, Alvin Bragg is a highly political DA. Would not surprise me if he found some "novel legal theory" to charge it while ignoring all the crimes by the anti-Israel crowd.

Go look it up yourself. Here, I'll help you get started.

It's been reported at multiple news sites that 8 students were hospitalized as a result of the attack. Columbia's Provost said "The New York City Police Department is taking the lead role in investigating what appear to have been serious crimes, possibly hate crimes."

Doing something that sends 8 people to the hospital is serious shit. Stop trying to trivialize it.

 

[Politesse]

What would a "win" look like?

According to the protestors, "divestment" by Columbia from Israel. Seeing that Columbia isn't involved in the siege on Gaza, there is little else that can be done by Columbia.

For me, a win is everyone goes home, unharmed, unarrested.

For some others, they probably want these people rotting in jails.

Well, to you both, I guess I was a bit hasty. I was thinking in terms of the major stated goal but they've also stated other goals such as awareness and the prioritization of drawing attention to the killings in Gaza.

There are a lot of other things going on right now around this timespan that may also have interplay with increased pressure and awareness.

So I suppose time will tell.

I think the kids in college don't know what they are talking about. I think many in here don't know what they are talking about.

Gazans are suffering, Israelis and Israeli families are suffering. They are suffering because of geopolitical conflict that is no where near as simple as some people make out. There is more baggage than at an airport. But this appears to be more about the team you support, than the strife this conflict has produced.

Horse shit. You don't have to be on anyone's "team" to see that mass killings are wrong.

Do you believe that everyone who protested the Vietnam war was doing so because they supported the "Viet Cong team"?

 

[Harry Bosch]

If these students want to do something helpful, they can donate to one of the organizations that are giving aide to the Palestinians.

Biden was doing NOTHING to help Palestinians or "restrain" Netanyahu until his swing states fell into question due to protests over this issue. Protests don't do anything? Bullshit! Bullshit pie on toast! Protests have already saved thousands of innocent lives in this war by scaring Biden and by extension scaring Israel into loosening its grip from the fullscale ethnic cleansing that characterized their October and November campaigns.

What fucking good is it to fund "aid" if no one is allowed into the country to distribute it, and open fire is allowed against aid convoys and refugee trains? If I shot you in the gut and raped your kid, would you forgive me as long as I then threw some bandages on the ground a few feet away and told you to crawl over and get them?

If Biden isn't scared of the consequences of backing Israel, people will die in large numbers. And news footage of his people roughing up minorities to defend his policies is the only thing that makes him nervous in that way. Theu can squelch most footage from Gaza, they can't keep the cameras away from the MI governor's mansion or the campus of UCLA.

He did nothing? Do you have an internal source inside the Biden cabinet that reported this?

Anything done secretly and ineffectively is irrelevant to the outcome. If a person's public position was uncritical endorsement, I do not give a flying shit what their private reservations were. I'm sure historians will be most interested, though.

Okay! We’ll have to agree to disagree. I’d want any politician who was 100 percent transparent regarding foreign policy to be immediately fired.

 

[Politesse]

If these students want to do something helpful, they can donate to one of the organizations that are giving aide to the Palestinians.

Biden was doing NOTHING to help Palestinians or "restrain" Netanyahu until his swing states fell into question due to protests over this issue. Protests don't do anything? Bullshit! Bullshit pie on toast! Protests have already saved thousands of innocent lives in this war by scaring Biden and by extension scaring Israel into loosening its grip from the fullscale ethnic cleansing that characterized their October and November campaigns.

What fucking good is it to fund "aid" if no one is allowed into the country to distribute it, and open fire is allowed against aid convoys and refugee trains? If I shot you in the gut and raped your kid, would you forgive me as long as I then threw some bandages on the ground a few feet away and told you to crawl over and get them?

If Biden isn't scared of the consequences of backing Israel, people will die in large numbers. And news footage of his people roughing up minorities to defend his policies is the only thing that makes him nervous in that way. Theu can squelch most footage from Gaza, they can't keep the cameras away from the MI governor's mansion or the campus of UCLA.

He did nothing? Do you have an internal source inside the Biden cabinet that reported this?

Anything done secretly and ineffectively is irrelevant to the outcome. If a person's public position was uncritical endorsement, I do not give a flying shit what their private reservations were. I'm sure historians will be most interested, though.

Okay! We’ll have to agree to disagree.

I never agree to disagree, that's illogical. We just disagree.

 

[TomC]

Do you believe that everyone who protested the Vietnam war was doing so because they supported the "Viet Cong team"?

It takes a special kind of stupid to compare those two situations.

Had Vietnamese people attacked the US most of us would probably have had a very different opinion. But that didn't happen.
Hamas did attack Israel and everybody knows it.

And will as long as they are able.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

Do you believe that everyone who protested the Vietnam war was doing so because they supported the "Viet Cong team"?

It takes a special kind of stupid to compare those two situations.

Had Vietnamese people attacked the US most of us would probably have had a very different opinion. But that didn't happen.
Hamas did attack Israel and everybody knows it.

And will as long as they are able.
Tom

You're arguing that the Viet Cong never attacked our allies in SE Asia? Throughout most of 1969, it's said that they killed or abducted more than 200 civilians a week. Hamas doesn't come remotely close.

 

[TomC]

You're arguing that the Viet Cong never attacked our allies in SE Asia? Throughout most of 1969, it's said that they killed or abducted more than 200 civilians a week. Hamas doesn't come remotely close.

Nope.
I'm arguing that the US war against Vietnamese people, in Vietnam, had nothing to do with defending the USA against attack.

Israel is currently defending against the violent Muslim tribalists who have been attacking Israel for decades.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

You're arguing that the Viet Cong never attacked our allies in SE Asia? Throughout most of 1969, it's said that they killed or abducted more than 200 civilians a week. Hamas doesn't come remotely close.

Nope.
I'm arguing that the US war against Vietnamese people, in Vietnam, had nothing to do with defending the USA against attack.

Israel is currently defending against the violent Muslim tribalists who have been attacking Israel for decades.
Tom

No one has attacked the US in this situation, aside from right wing loons within our own police force.

Thank you for your honesty, though, on the last point. Very few on the left are willing to admit that this is a religious war and that we have chosen a side in it. We support Jews, and kill Muslims; that is indeed our unofficial national policy, as is plainly obvious to the rest of the world. Only our business partners are safe. But usually only conservatives are willing to own up to that.

I still oppose religious ethnocide though. Honest or not, it's morally repugnant and inimical to democratic values.

 

[TomC]

You're arguing that the Viet Cong never attacked our allies in SE Asia? Throughout most of 1969, it's said that they killed or abducted more than 200 civilians a week. Hamas doesn't come remotely close.

Nope.
I'm arguing that the US war against Vietnamese people, in Vietnam, had nothing to do with defending the USA against attack.

Israel is currently defending against the violent Muslim tribalists who have been attacking Israel for decades.
Tom

No one has attacked the US in this situation, aside from right wing loons within our own police force.

Nor are we attacking anyone.
So what is your point other than defending violent Muslim tribalists?
Tom

 

[Politesse]

You're arguing that the Viet Cong never attacked our allies in SE Asia? Throughout most of 1969, it's said that they killed or abducted more than 200 civilians a week. Hamas doesn't come remotely close.

Nope.
I'm arguing that the US war against Vietnamese people, in Vietnam, had nothing to do with defending the USA against attack.

Israel is currently defending against the violent Muslim tribalists who have been attacking Israel for decades.
Tom

No one has attacked the US in this situation, aside from right wing loons within our own police force.

Nor are we attacking anyone.
So what is your point other than defending violent Muslim tribalists?
Tom

I have never made any defense of "violent Muslim tribalists", except insofar as I consider it wrong to commit or materially support religious ethnocide, regardless of target.

 

[laughing dog]

]

You should be able to demonstrate that it is false. I won't hold my breath.

20% of Israelis are Arabic Muslims. Wiki it for yourself if you don't believe me.
Tom

I’m glad I didn’t hold my breadth. Why would anyone capable of rational thought think the demographics of Israel have anything to do with ethnic cleansing in Gaza and the West Bank?

 

[TomC]

]

You should be able to demonstrate that it is false. I won't hold my breath.

20% of Israelis are Arabic Muslims. Wiki it for yourself if you don't believe me.
Tom

I’m glad I didn’t hold my breadth. Why would anyone capable of rational thought think the demographics of Israel have anything to do with ethnic cleansing in Gaza and the West Bank?

Here's what I was responding to:

I get that it looks and walks like ethnic cleansing. I know that the ultra-right in Israel, along with Netanhyu, want a Jewish state with no Arabs.

Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

MIT faculty plead with administrators to let pro-Palestinian encampment stay

A number of faculty members at MIT signaled their opposition to any police action at a pro-Palestinian encampment established on the school's campus.

www.masslive.com

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Pro-Palestinian protest camps at Yale and UConn removed by police, several arrested in Storrs

Police moved in to remove pro-Palestinian protest tents set up at Yale University in New Haven and at the University of Connecticut in Storrs.

www.ctinsider.com

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I was arrested protesting at Columbia in '68. Today's student encampments carry on a proud, brave tradition

Tom Hurwitz was arrested during 1968 student protests at Columbia. Pro-Palestinian campus protests today invoke a proud tradition, he writes.

forward.com

Live updates: NYPD enters Columbia University's Hamilton Hall, protests disrupt UCLA, UNC campuses across the US

NYPD officers have entered Columbia University, where Hamilton Hall has been occupied by students protesting Israel's war in Gaza. The police department acted after receiving a letter from the administration authorizing them to go into the campus, a law enforcement source told CNN. Follow for...

www.cnn.com

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A majority of Americans now favor a ceasefire.

That's kind of those polls that find that majority of Americans are in favor of this or that lofty goal without considering how to get there or any downsides.
What would "ceasefire" mean concretely? Hamas refuses a ceasefire without a long laundry list of demands (as if they were winning the war on the ground) that includes release of >1000 terrorists from Israeli prisons. Including many serving life sentences.
Any ceasefire with Hamas would last only as long as they don't decide to renege and attack Israel again. There was a ceasefire in effect on 10/6/2023 after all. What good did it do anybody?

But the agenda of encampments is going beyond that and requires a lot of time investment.

No kidding. The agenda of the encampments is extremist.

And what of the thousands of Palestinians that are being held in Israel? No charges. No trial. No real crime to speak of....just accusations. Do they deserve to either be tried (ya know, speedy) or released?

It's a war. You don't need to charge POWs with anything. And note that it's not the Palestinian criminals they are after, it's just the terrorists.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A majority of Americans now favor a ceasefire.

That's kind of those polls that find that majority of Americans are in favor of this or that lofty goal without considering how to get there or any downsides.
What would "ceasefire" mean concretely? Hamas refuses a ceasefire without a long laundry list of demands (as if they were winning the war on the ground) that includes release of >1000 terrorists from Israeli prisons. Including many serving life sentences.
Any ceasefire with Hamas would last only as long as they don't decide to renege and attack Israel again. There was a ceasefire in effect on 10/6/2023 after all. What good did it do anybody?

Certainly the term "ceasefire" carries a lot of baggage. Hamas wasn't exactly on level terms before October 7th. After October 7th, they should be viewed as nothing but a terror cell pretending to be a quasi governing body. They don't deserve or warrant a ceasefire. They warrant justice being paid against them. I would say sieges need to end, but the active targeting of Hamas isn't something the world needs to end.

That said, "what good did it do anybody" is very bothersome language as well. I see lots of language like this from yourself and others, which seems to imply the justification for ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Israel, or maybe more liberally, the an apartheid set up. You don't say it out loud (type it?), but I don't see any possible alternative to the "what good did it do anybody" rhetoric.

Who is even talking about the Muslims in Israel? This is about the people in Gaza.

So, could you and others please describe what the solution is in your mind, if I'm wrong, regarding the location of Muslims in Israel.

I can't speak for him but I would think the answer is keep tearing up Hamas until the hostages are found.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When you are talking about the actions of the group they are the same thing. The pseudo-country Gaza and Hamas are interchangeable terms as we typically do not distinguish the actions of the government of a country from the actions of the country. We say "Russia" invaded Ukraine even though it's obviously the direction of Putin and says nothing about how the people stand on it. "Gazan" and "Hamas" are not as not all individuals support the actions of their country.

And yet we don't blame all Russian people for the actions of Putin. And I think it's untrue that Hamas cannot be separated from innocent Gazan citizens.

The majority of people in Gaza support Hamas and support the 10/7 massacre.

Prove it.

The polls have been linked over in the main thread about the war.

The exact level of support changes over time but it's always been over 50%.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Hamas supporters are sticking their heads in the sand about Jews dying.

How many Jews have died at the hand of Hamas since December 7th?

The "peace" movement is about not destroying their ability to repeat 10/7.

And what is your endgame here? What conditions will you accept for the IDF to stop their campaign?

No idea. I expect they will stop it when they either get the hostages out or have destroyed everything of Hamas they can get to.

All along Hamas has known they can have peace by handing back the hostages. They aren't interested.

This is absolutely UNTRUE. We can certainly go after Hamas without killing thousands of innocent men, women and children of Palestine. We do it all the flipping time. BN simply does not wish to as HE is calling for the eradication of all Arabs by his actions. He is NOT doing this to 'garner the release of the hostages, defend Israel or prevent an attack' and you know it.

And how do you propose to do it?!?! Whose approach should they emulate? (Hint: They're the world experts, there's nobody else nearly as good at minimizing civilian deaths in combat.)

 

[JohnG]

When you are talking about the actions of the group they are the same thing. The pseudo-country Gaza and Hamas are interchangeable terms as we typically do not distinguish the actions of the government of a country from the actions of the country. We say "Russia" invaded Ukraine even though it's obviously the direction of Putin and says nothing about how the people stand on it. "Gazan" and "Hamas" are not as not all individuals support the actions of their country.

And yet we don't blame all Russian people for the actions of Putin. And I think it's untrue that Hamas cannot be separated from innocent Gazan citizens.

The majority of people in Gaza support Hamas and support the 10/7 massacre.

Prove it.

The polls have been linked over in the main thread about the war.

The exact level of support changes over time but it's always been over 50%.

However the policy of armed attacks against Israel polled at about 80% before Oct 7, regardless of govt. Gazans main critique of Hamas is the corruption, not the violence.