Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[laughing dog]

When Israel continues to seize land against international law on the west bank, drive out the Palestinians (Ethnic cleansing) to effectively expand Israel, I'd say that they have lost credibility to say that they are innocent.

I didn't say innocent, because I don't think there are many of those in the situation.

12,300 dead children, Tom. They were innocent. They were all innocent. That's what it means to be a kid.

Nope.
A 16y/o with a machine gun and a determination to kill the Jews is a child but also a combatant.

This is a problem I keep pointing out and folks like you keep hand waving away. There's no way for the IDF to distinguish between violent terrorists and anybody else in Gaza.
Tom

That is simply nonsense. They have information and they have eyes. Certainly, the difficulty of distinguishing a terrorist does not justify nor excuse killing someone because they might be a terrorist .

Who does?

The IDF. I realize opinions don't require knowledge but that certainly makes them more convincing.

 

[TomC]

When Israel continues to seize land against international law on the west bank, drive out the Palestinians (Ethnic cleansing) to effectively expand Israel, I'd say that they have lost credibility to say that they are innocent.

I didn't say innocent, because I don't think there are many of those in the situation.

12,300 dead children, Tom. They were innocent. They were all innocent. That's what it means to be a kid.

Nope.
A 16y/o with a machine gun and a determination to kill the Jews is a child but also a combatant.

This is a problem I keep pointing out and folks like you keep hand waving away. There's no way for the IDF to distinguish between violent terrorists and anybody else in Gaza.
Tom

That is simply nonsense. They have information and they have eyes. Certainly, the difficulty of distinguishing a terrorist does not justify nor excuse killing someone because they might be a terrorist .

Who does?

The IDF. I realize opinions don't require knowledge but that certainly makes them more convincing.

What makes you think IDF is better able to distinguish better than any other major participants?

I don't consider protecting innocent Gazans from other Gazans the responsibility of IDF.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

When Israel continues to seize land against international law on the west bank, drive out the Palestinians (Ethnic cleansing) to effectively expand Israel, I'd say that they have lost credibility to say that they are innocent.

I didn't say innocent, because I don't think there are many of those in the situation.

12,300 dead children, Tom. They were innocent. They were all innocent. That's what it means to be a kid.

Nope.
A 16y/o with a machine gun and a determination to kill the Jews is a child but also a combatant.

This is a problem I keep pointing out and folks like you keep hand waving away. There's no way for the IDF to distinguish between violent terrorists and anybody else in Gaza.
Tom

That is simply nonsense. They have information and they have eyes. Certainly, the difficulty of distinguishing a terrorist does not justify nor excuse killing someone because they might be a terrorist .

Who does?

The IDF. I realize opinions don't require knowledge but that certainly makes them more convincing.

What makes you think IDF is better able to distinguish better than any other major participants

If the IDF cannot distinguish between civilian and combatants, then it really is shooting indiscriminately.

However, the IDF maintains it aims at Hamas facilities and that they do have names of terrorists. Are you claiming the IDF does not know what it is talking about or is this just another example of your lack of knowledge?

I don't consider protecting innocent Gazans from other Gazans the responsibility of IDF.
Tom

No one does. So why are you babbling about it?

 

[TomC]

If the IDF cannot distinguish between civilian and combatants, then it really is shooting indiscriminately

IDF is not shooting indiscriminately, they're shooting at the threat to Israel.
It's Hamas that shot indiscriminately and started this current disaster.

You can keep overlooking the fact that this is the result of 10/7 if you want to keep blaming Israel. It's very common sort of blinders.
Tom

 

[TomC]

No one does. So why are you babbling about it?

Everyone who blames Gazan casualties on Israel is.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Gazans are suffering, Israelis and Israeli families are suffering. They are suffering because of geopolitical conflict that is no where near as simple as some people make out. There is more baggage than at an airport. But this appears to be more about the team you support, than the strife this conflict has produced.

Horse shit. You don't have to be on anyone's "team" to see that mass killings are wrong.

Do you believe that everyone who protested the Vietnam war was doing so because they supported the "Viet Cong team"?

You're looking at it from a far too simplistic view.

Mass killings are wrong--but you have no path to avoid mass killings. The question is whether it's Israel killing Gazans or Gazans massacring Israelis. And I'll choose the side that aims at combatants, not the side that aims at civilians and crows about it's war crimes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nor are we attacking anyone.
So what is your point other than defending violent Muslim tribalists?
Tom

I have never made any defense of "violent Muslim tribalists", except insofar as I consider it wrong to commit or materially support religious ethnocide, regardless of target.

You have, indirectly.

Complain about the 10/7 massacre but demand that Israel not actually defend itself means another 10/7 would be coming. Think of it along the lines of harboring a fugitive--you claim to disagree with the fugitive but you want to keep the cops from getting him anyway.

 

[Swammerdami]

The Gazans are still in Gaza. There's no issue of "going home".

What gibberish. You're in Nevada. If a military drove you into Arizona would you still be "home"? NV and AZ are both in the USA.

 

[TomC]

The Gazans are still in Gaza. There's no issue of "going home".

What gibberish. You're in Nevada. If a military drove you into Arizona would you still be "home"? NV and AZ are both in the USA.

No.
But if he fled Nevada as the Mexican army launched a military assault, then joined them, and was refused reentry to Nevada afterwards, he would be.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

If the IDF cannot distinguish between civilian and combatants, then it really is shooting indiscriminately

IDF is not shooting indiscriminately, they're shooting at the threat to Israel.
It's Hamas that shot indiscriminately and started this current disaster.

You can keep overlooking the fact that this is the result of 10/7 if you want to keep blaming Israel. It's very common sort of blinders.
Tom

As you say, if the IDF cannot distinguish between terrorists and civilians, then when they shoot, they are shooting indiscriminately because they are trying to hit terrorists not civilians.

. In fact, it is a rather disingenuous of you to clip out the part where I point out the IDF claims it is distinguishing a bit. I am not blaming anything on the IDF. I am simply pointing out your argument is meritless.

No one does. So why are you babbling about it?

Everyone who blames Gazan casualties on Israel is.
Tom

More babble.


Your responses are becoming more and more unhinged from the discussion.

 

[Politesse]

Nor are we attacking anyone.
So what is your point other than defending violent Muslim tribalists?
Tom

I have never made any defense of "violent Muslim tribalists", except insofar as I consider it wrong to commit or materially support religious ethnocide, regardless of target.

You have, indirectly.

Complain about the 10/7 massacre but demand that Israel not actually defend itself means another 10/7 would be coming. Think of it along the lines of harboring a fugitive--you claim to disagree with the fugitive but you want to keep the cops from getting him anyway.

I have never objected to Israel "defending itself". Genocide is not defense, they are slaughtering some of their subjects by the millions and endangering even those citizens they intend to protect by aggravating damn near half the planet against them.

 

[Politesse]

Think of it along the lines of harboring a fugitive--you claim to disagree with the fugitive but you want to keep the cops from getting him anyway.

If that situation existed, and the only way the police could think of to "get" the fugitive is to bomb his house to rubble, knowingly killing his entire extended family, including children? Yes. Yes, I would have a major problem with that theory of policing. Apprehending a fugitive to stand trial for their actions is within the rights of a government, but to do so with reckless disregard for the safety of innocent bystanders is not.

 

[TomC]

Nor are we attacking anyone.
So what is your point other than defending violent Muslim tribalists?
Tom

I have never made any defense of "violent Muslim tribalists", except insofar as I consider it wrong to commit or materially support religious ethnocide, regardless of target.

You have, indirectly.

Complain about the 10/7 massacre but demand that Israel not actually defend itself means another 10/7 would be coming. Think of it along the lines of harboring a fugitive--you claim to disagree with the fugitive but you want to keep the cops from getting him anyway.

I have never objected to Israel "defending itself". Genocide is not defense, they are slaughtering some of their subjects by the millions and endangering even those citizens they intend to protect by aggravating damn near half the planet against them.

Hey @laughing dog
Wanna see an example of mischaracterizing from someone not me or LP?
?

Maybe not.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They're the world experts, there's nobody else nearly as good at minimizing civilian deaths in combat.

Sure.

In other news, my favourite football team are the best in the world. They only lose because the referees hate us for our success.

Pay a little attention to the world.

Urban Warfare | Center for Civilians in Conflict

civiliansinconflict.org

The average is about 90%.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

They're the world experts, there's nobody else nearly as good at minimizing civilian deaths in combat.

Sure.

In other news, my favourite football team are the best in the world. They only lose because the referees hate us for our success.

Pay a little attention to the world.

Urban Warfare | Center for Civilians in Conflict

civiliansinconflict.org

The average is about 90%.

From your website:

NGOs to President Biden: No Credible Humanitarian Plan for Attack on Rafah Exists

Today, CIVIC joined 46 organizations in sending a letter to US President Joe Biden stating that no credible humanitarian plan for an attack on Rafah exists and urging the US government to use all of its influence to prevent such an operation from occurring in order to avoid further catastrophic...

civiliansinconflict.org

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Also, ...

CIVIC Joins Call to Stop Arms Transfers to Israel, Palestinian Armed Groups

Center for Civilians in Conflict alongside 15 other international humanitarian and human rights organizations have issued an open call to all UN member states to stop fuelling the conflict and prevent further loss of civilian life by halting the transfers of arms to Israel and Palestinian armed...

civiliansinconflict.org

That seems relevant to divestment.

 

[Derec]

Show me case law where a person was charged with assault in NY for spraying something like this "in close proximity" to people.
But then again, Alvin Bragg is a highly political DA. Would not surprise me if he found some "novel legal theory" to charge it while ignoring all the crimes by the anti-Israel crowd.

Go look it up yourself. Here, I'll help you get started.

Those are about spraying people in the face, and using things like pepper spray. Not just spraying gag fart spray or cologne sprayed in "vicinity" of people.

It's been reported at multiple news sites that 8 students were hospitalized as a result of the attack. Columbia's Provost said "The New York City Police Department is taking the lead role in investigating what appear to have been serious crimes, possibly hate crimes."

From the Grauniad article:

Columbia’s chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) said eight students were a hospitalized as a result. Students reported their clothes and hair had a foul smell for hours after the protest.

I would not trust SJP not to twist facts (for example exaggerating the severity of the protestors' condition or treatment) nor would I trust anything claimed by these protesters. Have these alleged clothes even been tested?

Even if it was Skunk (for which, again there is zero evidence), it was designed to be a non-harmful crowd control weapon that would strongly motivate people to disperse because of how extremely malodorous it is. In another article, one of the anti-Israel protestors said that she had an autoimmune condition. It is very much possible she needed medical attention because of it, and not the smell. Same could be true for the other 7.

Doing something that sends 8 people to the hospital is serious shit. Stop trying to trivialize it.

First you'd have to prove that the stinky substance (whatever it was) caused any damage. There is also the possibility that they were malingering.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's long been a deliberate strategy of theirs to put military stuff in "protected" locations so useful idiots will blame Israel for destroying said locations because if they put it literally anywhere else, it will immediately be destroyed.

FTFY. That behaviour isn't evil, or even manipulative. It's a rational response to an existential threat.

If somebody you supported did this in the face of an overwhemingly powerful adversary, you would applaud their pluck, ingenuity, and resourcefulness.

View attachment 46003

Not evil??? I do agree it's rational but note that it's only an existential threat to Hamas, not to Gaza.

 

[TomC]

FTFY. That behaviour isn't evil, or even manipulative. It's a rational response to an existential threat.

What existential threat was Gaza facing during the build up to and launching of the October 7 terrorist attack?
Tom

 

[Derec]

Also, ...

CIVIC Joins Call to Stop Arms Transfers to Israel, Palestinian Armed Groups

Center for Civilians in Conflict alongside 15 other international humanitarian and human rights organizations have issued an open call to all UN member states to stop fuelling the conflict and prevent further loss of civilian life by halting the transfers of arms to Israel and Palestinian armed...

civiliansinconflict.org

CIVIC is making a a false equivalence between Israel, a free and democratic country, with terror groups like Hamas or Islamic Jihad. There is no equivalence here. Besides, there is zero chance Iran will stop arming their proxies. So any stop of arm sales to Israel by western countries would be a one-sided action that would harm our ally and strengthen our enemies.

That seems relevant to divestment.

These anti-Israel protestors want divestment from all Israeli companies. It is more akin to this: