Combatant vs civilian deaths in Gaza

[Loren Pechtel]

There have been many on here who take Hamas' word as to the death toll (the figures in the media are coming straight from Hamas.) Consider Cast Lead, another case where they supposedly were basically only killing civilians:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_print=1&x_context=7&x_issue=76&x_article=1952

Hamas admits the IDF numbers are basically right.

 

[laughing dog]

For some reason, you think lowering the number of actual civilian deaths somehow changes the nature of the arguments?

 

[arkirk]

Israel commits its violence in killing binges. Between the binges, those who lost their homes and families etc. are apt to be forced to relocate. Hamas with its tunnels now has a possible location for them to go and become combatants. So what, Loren?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For some reason, you think lowering the number of actual civilian deaths somehow changes the nature of the arguments?

The point is that the claims of civilian deaths are mostly fake.

 

[Jayjay]

For some reason, you think lowering the number of actual civilian deaths somehow changes the nature of the arguments?

The point is that the claims of civilian deaths are mostly fake.

Even your own sources from last week put the number of confirmed civilian vs. confirmed militants was about 50/50. That harldy qualifies as "mostly fake". And as far as outrage is concerned, there isn't much of a qualitative difference between 400 and 200 dead. It's in the same ballpark nevertheless. And what about the thousands wounded, or who are living in fear of getting bombed by accident?

 

[arkirk]

For some reason, you think lowering the number of actual civilian deaths somehow changes the nature of the arguments?

The point is that the claims of civilian deaths are mostly fake.

Of course, Loren. All Palestinians are terrorists or future terrorists. Being as they are doomed to get pissed off at some point enough to join Hamas, there are really just legitimate combatant deaths...even the women are soldiers in Jihad!

 

[Bronzeage]

For some reason, you think lowering the number of actual civilian deaths somehow changes the nature of the arguments?

The point is that the claims of civilian deaths are mostly fake.

Which is something like mostly dead.

Here is the way it's going to end. Israel will keep up the pressure. There will be more deaths on both sides. Israel will decide to pull back. Hamas will claim victory because they stood up to the Israeli Army and are still alive. The Middle East is the only place where surviving a one sided crushing defeat is considered a win.

How am I able to make this prediction? Simple. This is how it's ended every time Israel uses tanks and soldiers to solve a political problem.

 

[laughing dog]

For some reason, you think lowering the number of actual civilian deaths somehow changes the nature of the arguments?

The point is that the claims of civilian deaths are mostly fake.

Please quantify what you mean by "mostly" because your own sources show that the Palestinian civilian casualities/Israeli citizen casualities is extremely disproportionate.

 

[Togo]

The point is that the claims of civilian deaths are mostly fake.

Even your own sources from last week put the number of confirmed civilian vs. confirmed militants was about 50/50.

Actually, if you read the article carefully, it doesn't. It contradicts it's own conclusion.

Loren is following the propanganda line from the original Cast Lead operation, much as he did at the time. The primary source is the quotation given from Mr Hamad. The claim the article makes is that Hamad is 'admitting' that half of the casualties were soldiers. But that isn't what he says. What he says is that Israel targeted police stations, and 250 people were killed. Later on he says that 150 other security forces were killed, distingusihing them from fighters.

The only difference between the 300 combatants that everyone agrees were killed, and the 700 that the report claims are now being admitted to, is the 400 policeman that were killed (250+150). (The figures for policeman is high because the IDF were targeting them. Operation cast lead started off with middle-of-the-night missle attacks on police stations.) That's why the various reputable sources that disagree with the article are quoted discussing whether civillian police forces count as enemy combatants or not. They conclude that they do not.

The article also discusses why Mr Hamad would seek to exaggerate the number of people killed who had links to Hamas.

All in all the conclusion and the introduction are in direct contradiction to the evidence presented in the article. The article explains, in detail, exactly why the 400 policeman were not considered combatants, why Mr Hamad might sound like he's including them.

 

[Derec]

Here is the way it's going to end. Israel will keep up the pressure. There will be more deaths on both sides. Israel will decide to pull back. Hamas will claim victory because they stood up to the Israeli Army and are still alive. The Middle East is the only place where surviving a one sided crushing defeat is considered a win.

Hamas has staked too much on the ending of the blockade as the condition sine qua non of any ceasefire to be able to claim victory if they don't get it (which they won't).

 

[Bronzeage]

Here is the way it's going to end. Israel will keep up the pressure. There will be more deaths on both sides. Israel will decide to pull back. Hamas will claim victory because they stood up to the Israeli Army and are still alive. The Middle East is the only place where surviving a one sided crushing defeat is considered a win.

Hamas has staked too much on the ending of the blockade as the condition sine qua non of any ceasefire to be able to claim victory if they don't get it (which they won't).

Hide and watch. When Israel withdraws, Hamas will claim victory.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is that the claims of civilian deaths are mostly fake.

Even your own sources from last week put the number of confirmed civilian vs. confirmed militants was about 50/50. That harldy qualifies as "mostly fake". And as far as outrage is concerned, there isn't much of a qualitative difference between 400 and 200 dead. It's in the same ballpark nevertheless. And what about the thousands wounded, or who are living in fear of getting bombed by accident?

1) Compared to Hamas numbers there's a big difference.

2) How many are actually being bombed by accident rather than as failed human shields?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The only difference between the 300 combatants that everyone agrees were killed, and the 700 that the report claims are now being admitted to, is the 400 policeman that were killed (250+150). (The figures for policeman is high because the IDF were targeting them. Operation cast lead started off with middle-of-the-night missle attacks on police stations.) That's why the various reputable sources that disagree with the article are quoted discussing whether civillian police forces count as enemy combatants or not. They conclude that they do not.

The article also discusses why Mr Hamad would seek to exaggerate the number of people killed who had links to Hamas.

All in all the conclusion and the introduction are in direct contradiction to the evidence presented in the article. The article explains, in detail, exactly why the 400 policeman were not considered combatants, why Mr Hamad might sound like he's including them.

You apparently missed the first paragraph:

Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad's admission that Hamas and affiliated militias lost 600-700 fighters in the Israeli "Cast Lead" military operation

 

[Emily Lake]

I try to watch the news as little as possible; knowing what horrors are going on in the world serves only to make me sad. In this case though... I honestly can't be arsed to care. They've been at each others throats for generations. I feel very bad for the civilians living there, and it would be very nice for some third party to offer to evacuate them. Other than that, I'm quite content to let both sides blow each other to kingdom come. Let their gods sort them out and leave the rest of the (only slightly more) civilized world in (some slight approximation of) peace.

 

[arkirk]

I try to watch the news as little as possible; knowing what horrors are going on in the world serves only to make me sad. In this case though... I honestly can't be arsed to care. They've been at each others throats for generations. I feel very bad for the civilians living there, and it would be very nice for some third party to offer to evacuate them. Other than that, I'm quite content to let both sides blow each other to kingdom come. Let their gods sort them out and leave the rest of the (only slightly more) civilized world in (some slight approximation of) peace.

Emily, none of the world is at peace and also none of it is particularly civilized. International relations have broken down to such a high degree that pretty much everything is some kind of contest for resources, without a thought for the exhaustion of our environment. The hottest hot spots are only the most obvious cases of this disorder. We simply don't have the option of saying, "Leave me alone." That is the sad truth. I point to events like what happened at the Boston Marathon a couple of years ago. What really needs to happen is that we need to either leave others alone or only relate to them in humanitarian terms. Nobody seems capable of relenting from any hard line. This appears due to the development of sophisticated propaganda machines in just about every country in the world. These machines, by focusing on racist, nationalistic and religious topics keep us from engaging in the repair work our environment and civil societies need.

The issue of combatant deaths versus civilian deaths in these conflicts, particularly in places like Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc. are like warts on the policies of the U.S., Russia, China, etc. Our military interventions is like scratching a wart...it never works. It is important to remove the conflict and the warts then will go away. The genocides and ethnic cleansings that occurred in Central and South America in the 80's are unhealed scars on the world body politic and keep us from friendly relations with those countries. We went on in the middle east to make the same type of mistakes....resource and strategic wars. Until we get this under control, you will not find yourself, nor will anybody find themselves capable of being "left alone."

 

[Jayjay]

Here is the way it's going to end. Israel will keep up the pressure. There will be more deaths on both sides. Israel will decide to pull back. Hamas will claim victory because they stood up to the Israeli Army and are still alive. The Middle East is the only place where surviving a one sided crushing defeat is considered a win.

Hamas has staked too much on the ending of the blockade as the condition sine qua non of any ceasefire to be able to claim victory if they don't get it (which they won't).

They got it last time. And considering that they have staked so much on it, is precisely why they won't give it up.

 

[arkirk]

You apparently missed the first paragraph:

Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad's admission that Hamas and affiliated militias lost 600-700 fighters in the Israeli "Cast Lead" military operation

You appear incapable of seeing that your approach to these problems is that you have no understanding of what is needed. It is a mark of collective mental illness to keep repeating the same type of action. Why cast lead? Because the parties busy casting the lead never considered casting bread.

 

[Togo]

You apparently missed the first paragraph.

No, I caught that the article was claiming that Mr Hamad had 'admitted' that there were 700 fighters. However, if you read what he actually said, as quoted in the article, it isn't true. That's why I pointed out that the article's introduction and conclusion were not supported by the quotes and references given in the article itself.

Again, the only difference between the figures is the 400 policeman killed.