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Compatibilism: What's that About?

Marvin

You're unlikely to get a clear and unambiguous response from DBT on his insistence that "freedom" is incompatible with determinism - I've tried for years.

Here's a frustrating exchange I had with DBT 3 years ago.

That's okay. I've found DBT to be a good sounding board for my own ideas. He generally avoids personal attacks and ad hominem, which I also prefer to avoid. Usually, in other discussion groups, I find myself in his position, being the lone voice. And my compatibilist position usually draws flack from both sides.
 
Marvin

You're unlikely to get a clear and unambiguous response from DBT on his insistence that "freedom" is incompatible with determinism - I've tried for years.

Here's a frustrating exchange I had with DBT 3 years ago.

That's okay. I've found DBT to be a good sounding board for my own ideas. He generally avoids personal attacks and ad hominem, which I also prefer to avoid. Usually, in other discussion groups, I find myself in his position, being the lone voice. And my compatibilist position usually draws flack from both sides.
I genuinely admire your patience.
 
I agree that DBT was been a great interlocutor. A thread free of bile, ad homs and personal attacks seems rare at message boards. This has been a good discussion.
 
Without pointing from your view there is no empirical justification for mind or thinking.
I think therefore I am.

It is the one thing that cannot be empirically doubted. If you think you do not exist even as you exist to think it, you are beyond help, trapped in a cage of your own nonsense, no matter how big that cage may be.

I can designate empirically a logical cluster whether it be in the brain or in a computer. I cannot designate the mind because it is without an empirical basis beyond lay speculation and self-reference.
That's because you lack the desire to develop or pick up any of the a languages that discuss abstractions on the level of "mind".

I have pointed to the process level of a computer to discuss "mind". I can create a world with things subdivided on the abstract level of a mind. I can show you the full shape of a mind, built from logical clusters. I can hold it up and point to it.

It requires speculation or self-reference beyond the recognition that "it is like something to be someone, it must be like something to be someone else. It is likely to be like something to be anything; it must be like something to be a rock." These are observations extended into generalities.

I'm pretty sure the only things scientific are those things that arise from scientific experiments extracted from presumptions as material operations involving aspects of brain extracted from musings about mind, id, etc.
Ah, so the only philosophy is now science?!? How presumptuous.

Science relies on logic and other elements of philosophy. Science is not the only part of metaphysics that is important.

I suppose if you cut out your eyes because you only trust your ears, you might not believe in the existence of light....

We have an actual phenomena, observe it every day, in our own existence. These things are not "subjective" in that every feeling, every thought, is caused somewhere in our heads by some neuron being either in a state or another.

I suppose if you walked up on a computer in action and looked at the behavior of the thing without looking at the actual interface, if you only had access to the current core state at any point in time, you would see the processor and the metal and say "it's just one processor grinding through an endless series of instructions; it's deterministic, and I see no "processes" here. It's just one instruction after another!

Never mind that there ARE distinct processes created as abstract groupings of instructions bundled together, you do not want to look at them. You look at "trees" and fail to see "forest"

When gets to material operations one abandons the fuzzy model for explicit neural activities which can be scientifically addressed.
So goal oriented thinking requires a goal. My goal is, in fact, to break down the requirements, expectations, and strategies that best serve goal oriented thinking, wherein the goal is mutually compatible self-actualization.

"Want" has a neural shape. I have want," I" am made of neurons occasionally impacted by messenger chemicals from other constructions, therefore "want" has a neural shape.

This is an empirical observation.

I am a mind. I use the term 'mind' to describe what I am as a functional system within a larger construction of stuff. I am made of neurons. Therefore a contained "mind" does have a describable shape, just not one you are very comfortable with addressing.

The observation, made in the most scientific way (direct observation), implies when neurons (and other logical assemblies) cluster together, and operate together, their construction is "a mind".

Kick and scream and hate it all you want but it's right there.

You want so badly for me to not use a word "mind" to refer to "a logical assembly".
Do you really think the neural targets of visual and auditory stimuli define the scope of visual and auditory processes. Really?
Yes. They do, if I understand your question right: the neuronal activity that accepts the output of the eyes, and then the neurons that accept that activity and so on ARE the visual auditory process. Unless you believe in things like "soul" beyond the concept of "abstract graph identity"

...

To use the analogy of programming, this is the difference between a system and process, and also the difference between a process and a task.

You seem to wish to claim none of it is "process", that all of it is only "system"

As long as isolation exists between subassemblies, subassemblies within their isolation form the shapes of process, defined by the isolation, in fact.

Isolation of information REQUIRES that distinct process a are given rise within any dynamic system which expressed that isolation.
Yeow. " I self-reference, therefore I self-reference." Obviously an attempt to express a systems engineering perspective to a, wait for it, systems scientist. Let's start at the bottom line.

I reject belief (self-reference) as an operational instrument of logic. If it's not empirical isn't worth the text it requires. Since even I consider such to be philosophy I'm going to use 'science' as my foil.

A logical structure is a nice way to frame empirical evidence. However, what I present isn't opinion it is empirical evidence. Don't let the frame confuse you. Yet, you've never written anything but opinion. You need to recognize the evidence that refutes your opinion. Replace it with material operations. Sorry, but it has to be that way.

I'm the gee who replaces philosophical self-referencing pandering with objective material, thereby elevating it from the speculative to the verified and validated.

IMHO the objective of a 'philosophical' forum on Determinism is to bring the quality of the information up from the romantic speculative to the materialistic demonstrated.

There is really no other way in this modern deterministic era to upgrade what has been philosophical information to meaningful material information. Time to close the speculative door.

You cling to outdated notions about the brain, mind, and perception. Modern neuroscience suggests the brain is taking veridical information in and providing superstitious information out most of the time. It is working to provide a scene different from what sensory experience suggests.

I spent decades collecting the relation between sense and sensation. Although much of what I did is reflected in published threshold curves most of that is negated by what people do with what they take in. It's wild west time out on the perceptual plain.
 
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Yeow. Obviously an attempt to express a systems engineering perspective to a, wait for it, systems scientist. Let's start at the bottom line.
I would say don't quit your day job but...
reject belief as an operational instrument of logic.
I reject your rejection of immediate observables as "mere belief".

what I present isn't opinion it is empirical evidence
No, you present claims that rely on definitions. You have DEFINED away mind. You have DEFINED away will. The realities are not susceptible to definitional games.

Whether it is one transistor or two or a thousand, a mind, a graph entity is formed from that arrangement of state machines into a bigger state machine.

This is empirical fact.

That this forms a process is empirical fact.

That this process take inputs, makes decisions, and models imaginaries is empirical fact.

I make material observations: some phenomena that is myself exists. It's the first material observation!

Process exists and is real within larger systems, and that process involves choice, whether that choice is trivial or complicated.

Choice is then split into two modes also by empirical reality: functional choice and dysfunctional choice. A functional choice yields the expected result. A dysfunctional choice yields something unexpected.

You are here claiming that it is not a choice because it will evaluate to a single calculable result from a secondary observer. I note that this does not invalidate that the operation happened and the process was the arbiter of the outcome and not any other thing, though many things arbitrated, previously, the shape of the process.

No matter what you calculate or why, that process will do as it must. If you came up with "5" that doesn't matter if the process comes up with 4. You stamping your feet saying "should have been 5" changes nothing. All you will be is wrong! Your desire to calculate it does not change the fact that it's will is independent and free, even if it is going to do what you predict.

I can crack open a universe, look at some thing choosing to act some way, and map out the process of choice that it used. I can point to the consideration of alternatives, and the point at which that probability wave collapses into a reality.
 
Yeow. Obviously an attempt to express a systems engineering perspective to a, wait for it, systems scientist. Let's start at the bottom line.
I would say don't quit your day job but...
reject belief as an operational instrument of logic.
I reject your rejection of immediate observables as "mere belief".

what I present isn't opinion it is empirical evidence
No, you present claims that rely on definitions. You have DEFINED away mind. You have DEFINED away will. The realities are not susceptible to definitional games.

Whether it is one transistor or two or a thousand, a mind, a graph entity is formed from that arrangement of state machines into a bigger state machine.

This is empirical fact.

That this forms a process is empirical fact.

That this process take inputs, makes decisions, and models imaginaries is empirical fact.

I make material observations: some phenomena that is myself exists. It's the first material observation!

Process exists and is real within larger systems, and that process involves choice, whether that choice is trivial or complicated.

Choice is then split into two modes also by empirical reality: functional choice and dysfunctional choice. A functional choice yields the expected result. A dysfunctional choice yields something unexpected.

You are here claiming that it is not a choice because it will evaluate to a single calculable result from a secondary observer. I note that this does not invalidate that the operation happened and the process was the arbiter of the outcome and not any other thing, though many things arbitrated, previously, the shape of the process.

No matter what you calculate or why, that process will do as it must. If you came up with "5" that doesn't matter if the process comes up with 4. You stamping your feet saying "should have been 5" changes nothing. All you will be is wrong! Your desire to calculate it does not change the fact that it's will is independent and free, even if it is going to do what you predict.

I can crack open a universe, look at some thing choosing to act some way, and map out the process of choice that it used. I can point to the consideration of alternatives, and the point at which that probability wave collapses into a reality.
While I'm 60 years past LSD I still can bring up scenes of me feeling the wind blow while seeing the leaves remain stationary. I've resigned myself to the notion that most of what I've experienced is composite or illusion, convenience, to get through the night. I'm a hard over materialistic determinist who has shards of knowledge lancing through perceived illusions.

We are focused now on a topic and positions. We are not rational beings exchanging shared, or disputed truths. we are combatants striving to outdo the other on some field of discourse.

Fine. I've chosen what I find worth the quibble and demonstrably so have you. For instance, I know you didn't read the article about brain organization. Had you done so your argument would have made sense which obviously isn't the case.

Moving on.
 
Yeow. Obviously an attempt to express a systems engineering perspective to a, wait for it, systems scientist. Let's start at the bottom line.
I would say don't quit your day job but...
reject belief as an operational instrument of logic.
I reject your rejection of immediate observables as "mere belief".

what I present isn't opinion it is empirical evidence
No, you present claims that rely on definitions. You have DEFINED away mind. You have DEFINED away will. The realities are not susceptible to definitional games.

Whether it is one transistor or two or a thousand, a mind, a graph entity is formed from that arrangement of state machines into a bigger state machine.

This is empirical fact.

That this forms a process is empirical fact.

That this process take inputs, makes decisions, and models imaginaries is empirical fact.

I make material observations: some phenomena that is myself exists. It's the first material observation!

Process exists and is real within larger systems, and that process involves choice, whether that choice is trivial or complicated.

Choice is then split into two modes also by empirical reality: functional choice and dysfunctional choice. A functional choice yields the expected result. A dysfunctional choice yields something unexpected.

You are here claiming that it is not a choice because it will evaluate to a single calculable result from a secondary observer. I note that this does not invalidate that the operation happened and the process was the arbiter of the outcome and not any other thing, though many things arbitrated, previously, the shape of the process.

No matter what you calculate or why, that process will do as it must. If you came up with "5" that doesn't matter if the process comes up with 4. You stamping your feet saying "should have been 5" changes nothing. All you will be is wrong! Your desire to calculate it does not change the fact that it's will is independent and free, even if it is going to do what you predict.

I can crack open a universe, look at some thing choosing to act some way, and map out the process of choice that it used. I can point to the consideration of alternatives, and the point at which that probability wave collapses into a reality.
While I'm 60 years past LSD I still can bring up scenes of me feeling the wind blow while seeing the leaves remain stationary. I've resigned myself to the notion that most of what I've experienced is composite or illusion, convenience, to get through the night. I'm a hard over materialistic determinist who has shards of knowledge lancing through perceived illusions.

We are focused now on a topic and positions. We are not rational beings exchanging shared, or disputed truths. we are combatants striving to outdo the other on some field of discourse.

Fine. I've chosen what I find worth the quibble and demonstrably so have you. For instance, I know you didn't read the article about brain organization. Had you done so your argument would have made sense which obviously isn't the case.

Moving on.
How brains organize is immaterial to the discussion of simplified systems for the sake of discussion in less complicated terms.

I can and do just as easily make my observations about simpler systems than neural ones, which STILL display process.

I don't really care about what religious beliefs you hold, or what justification on which you derive your failure to observe that ANY state machine is capable of "choice", and that this choice is either constrained from making valid choices of particular classes or "free": I have free will to choose which of many things I will pick up off my desk (I choose to pick up nothing); I do not have free will to choose which of many things to pick up off of your desk (it is not here, and thus I cannot pick stuff up off of it, nor would you let me were I present).

That you can, outside my observations, determine based on a calculation whether and which thing I pick up does not in any way drive what I will pick up. Were you to attempt to calculate which I would pick up off the desk within my observations, well, that's when things get complicated (mostly due to my contrary nature and desire to be strategically unassailable).

What is certain is that my decision will be mine, regardless. It does not matter that I am constructed; perhaps in some way both are true in that I exercise my free will in making decisions even while my will to determine what the actual process is, is in many ways constrained.

What is certain is that I CAN and DO discuss these things meaningfully. I cannot say the same for someone who thinks that they have no choice in the moment.
 
Yeow. Obviously an attempt to express a systems engineering perspective to a, wait for it, systems scientist. Let's start at the bottom line.
I would say don't quit your day job but...
reject belief as an operational instrument of logic.
I reject your rejection of immediate observables as "mere belief".

what I present isn't opinion it is empirical evidence
No, you present claims that rely on definitions. You have DEFINED away mind. You have DEFINED away will. The realities are not susceptible to definitional games.

Whether it is one transistor or two or a thousand, a mind, a graph entity is formed from that arrangement of state machines into a bigger state machine.

This is empirical fact.

That this forms a process is empirical fact.

That this process take inputs, makes decisions, and models imaginaries is empirical fact.

I make material observations: some phenomena that is myself exists. It's the first material observation!

Process exists and is real within larger systems, and that process involves choice, whether that choice is trivial or complicated.

Choice is then split into two modes also by empirical reality: functional choice and dysfunctional choice. A functional choice yields the expected result. A dysfunctional choice yields something unexpected.

You are here claiming that it is not a choice because it will evaluate to a single calculable result from a secondary observer. I note that this does not invalidate that the operation happened and the process was the arbiter of the outcome and not any other thing, though many things arbitrated, previously, the shape of the process.

No matter what you calculate or why, that process will do as it must. If you came up with "5" that doesn't matter if the process comes up with 4. You stamping your feet saying "should have been 5" changes nothing. All you will be is wrong! Your desire to calculate it does not change the fact that it's will is independent and free, even if it is going to do what you predict.

I can crack open a universe, look at some thing choosing to act some way, and map out the process of choice that it used. I can point to the consideration of alternatives, and the point at which that probability wave collapses into a reality.
While I'm 60 years past LSD I still can bring up scenes of me feeling the wind blow while seeing the leaves remain stationary. I've resigned myself to the notion that most of what I've experienced is composite or illusion, convenience, to get through the night. I'm a hard over materialistic determinist who has shards of knowledge lancing through perceived illusions.

We are focused now on a topic and positions. We are not rational beings exchanging shared, or disputed truths. we are combatants striving to outdo the other on some field of discourse.

Fine. I've chosen what I find worth the quibble and demonstrably so have you. For instance, I know you didn't read the article about brain organization. Had you done so your argument would have made sense which obviously isn't the case.

Moving on.
How brains organize is immaterial to the discussion of simplified systems for the sake of discussion in less complicated terms.

I can and do just as easily make my observations about simpler systems than neural ones, which STILL display process.

I don't really care about what religious beliefs you hold, or what justification on which you derive your failure to observe that ANY state machine is capable of "choice", and that this choice is either constrained from making valid choices of particular classes or "free": I have free will to choose which of many things I will pick up off my desk (I choose to pick up nothing); I do not have free will to choose which of many things to pick up off of your desk (it is not here, and thus I cannot pick stuff up off of it, nor would you let me were I present).

That you can, outside my observations, determine based on a calculation whether and which thing I pick up does not in any way drive what I will pick up. Were you to attempt to calculate which I would pick up off the desk within my observations, well, that's when things get complicated (mostly due to my contrary nature and desire to be strategically unassailable).

What is certain is that my decision will be mine, regardless. It does not matter that I am constructed; perhaps in some way both are true in that I exercise my free will in making decisions even while my will to determine what the actual process is, is in many ways constrained.

What is certain is that I CAN and DO discuss these things meaningfully. I cannot say the same for someone who thinks that they have no choice in the moment.
An example of the drivel you are promoting.

The Moral Choice Machine: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frai.2020.00036/full

In this study, we show that applying machine learning to human texts can extract deontological ethical reasoning about “right” and “wrong” conduct. We create a template list of prompts and responses, such as “Should I [action]?”, “Is it okay to [action]?”, etc. with corresponding answers of “Yes/no, I should (not).” and "Yes/no, it is (not)." The model's bias score is the difference between the model's score of the positive response (“Yes, I should”) and that of the negative response (“No, I should not”). For a given choice, the model's overall bias score is the mean of the bias scores of all question/answer templates paired with that choice. Specifically, the resulting model, called the Moral Choice Machine (MCM), calculates the bias score on a sentence level using embeddings of the Universal Sentence Encoder since the moral value of an action to be taken depends on its context.

Obviously the output from the model reflects the biases imputed in the "choice engine". If this is a basis for moral thinking give me Auschwitz.

What I'm doing is exposing your thinking for what it is, my way or the highway approach. It was a continuing discussion I had with machine AI system people right up to retirement in 2002. They have a tool and they try to impose it top down to the using public with very little success and a whole lot of blown budgets.

We usually had this discussion around the use of structural logic tools to the presentation of information to operators, commercial and military pilots, via electronic display and voice versus the classical user validated list menus. Not only would such projects go on for years but the results would then need to be approved by users.

Well, there were and are systems of validated lists of menus available to pilots who have used them very successfully for years given adequate training. The lists are structured in accordance with current operating functions and priorities. And training and certification practices are already in place.

All the software provides is some limited rationale and reconstruction of the current information flow created by knowledge engineers. And you know where that is going, to the decision-making by software people rather than pilots.

In other words, the AI people would have to replicate what already exists.

It was hard enough to get aging experts to share their knowledge of Aircraft tail schematics to describe what they know to those who want to preserve their knowledge for another 60 years. Getting pilots to sign up for such in current generation A/C to software people who aren't tactical pilot knowledge acquisition engineers would be nearly impossible.

And that would be only the first step. Next, one needs to bring AI people up to scratch with flight protocols and tactics. Then and only then would they be able to begin the development of their wet computer dream.

Not only would there be rebellion there would be crashes. Human nature trumps machine excellence every time. - as a side note I've never seen a computer consistently outperform an expert sensing data that can be presented to him - Just one presumed misstep by a machine decision rendering will result in the rendering system being shut down.

Yes my knowledge is out of date. I know only what I read anymore. So even though I have access to a lot of information neither my interests nor preferences tend to keep me up to date on AI. If you have access to demonstrated applied systems using specialists in real-time please advise.

Otherwise, been there done that.
 
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IMO, DBT has a quasi-religious belief in hard determinism, such that he conflates it with determinism. As I have explained, they are not the same. You cannot validly go from, “reliable cause and effect is observed at the macro scale in our universe,” to, “the reason I chose eggs for breakfast this morning is because of the big bang,“ which is essentially his argument, such as it is. With rare exceptions, people cannot be budged from religious or quasi-religious beliefs.

I have no belief. Once again, the argument is related to the compatibilist claim, that free will is compatible with determinism....and I am pointing out the flaws in the compatibilist definition of free will.

Incompatibilism not my personal argument. There are two sides to the debate, just because you don't agree with the opposition's argument, that doesn't make it a religion.

The flaws in compatibilism have been thoroughy explained.
 
You're unlikely to get a clear and unambiguous response fromReliable cause and effect in determinism is fixed cause and effect, being fixed does not equate to freedom. Just the opposite.

Question 1: Then you have a small problem to solve:
a) Shall we remove the terms "free" and "freedom" from all our dictionaries?
OR
b) Shall we define freedom in a way that does not require "freedom from causal necessity"?

As we know, freedom may be used in reference to unimpeded or unrestrained actions; the ball flies through the air unimpeded, the dog has been freed from its chain, planets and moons orbit freely, etc, etc. But relative that relative unimpeded actions do not equate to freedom of will. The dog may be free from the chain, but it isn't free from the constraint of the yard. The planet freely orbits the sun, but it can't do anything else, it is not free to roam.

We can act in accordance to our 'will'' - which is determined by brain state - and the actions that follow are unimpeded, but you can't do anything else but what was determined by brain state.

You act according to inner necessity. Your constraints are determined by inner necessity. You can't do otherwise. Unimpeded action is not free will.

Marvin

You're unlikely to get a clear and unambiguous response from DBT on his insistence that "freedom" is incompatible with determinism - I've tried for years.

Here's a frustrating exchange I had with DBT 3 years ago.

Anything and everything that you disagree with is simply labelled ambiguous.

That has been your only form of defense from the beginning.

The absurdity of your claim is demonstrated each and every time I quote and cite material from other sources, neuroscience, philosophers, etc, which essentially say the same thing...yet you studiously ignore, avoid or dismiss.

So, I guess that anything you don't like is, well, just too ambiguous for you to grasp.
 
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One of those things is not like the others. The ball, the planets, and the moons, do not experience constraint. The dog experiences his chain as a constraint. For the dog, freedom is a meaningful concept, because the chain prevents him from chasing the squirrel, something that he really wants to do.

The common element is unimpeded action. Unimpeded action necessarily follows from necessitated will.

''Wanting to do X is fully determined by these prior causes. Now that the desire to do X is being felt, there are no other constraints that keep the person from doing what he wants, namely X. At this point, we should ascribe free will to all animals capable of experiencing desires (e.g., to eat, sleep, or mate). Yet, we don’t; and we tend not to judge non-human animals in moral terms.''

Fortunately, the planet has no desires to do anything, so being "free" of its orbit is meaningless to the planet. On the other hand, if the Earth were free of its orbit, it would be a very meaningful event for us, because the Earth would float out into space, where things would get very cold and we'd all die. So, again, a very good argument for why reliable causation is our friend, to keep our Earth orbiting the Sun.

Desire is not the element of freedom. Desire itself is necessitated by processes that are not subject to conscious or free will regulation. The action that results is no more subject to free will change or regulation than orbits and objects falling, the action is necessarily performed with no alternate action possible in that instance in time. We of course have far greater repertoire of actions than planets, yet if determinism is true, every action we make is equally determined, yet unimpeded.
We can act in accordance to our 'will'' - which is determined by brain state - and the actions that follow are unimpeded, but you can't do anything else but what was determined by brain state.

Why would I want to do anything else than what my brain state chooses to do? My brain states, deciding what I will do, and my being able to do it, is what my freedom is all about!

Freedom, by definition, requires alternate possibilities and freedom from necessity;

Freedom:

1: the quality or state of being free: such as
a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action - Merrium Webster.


Quote:
If you accept regulative control as a necessary part of free will, it seems impossible either way:
1. Free will requires that given an act A, the agent could have acted otherwise
2. Indeterminate actions happens randomly and without intent or control
3. Therefore indeterminism and free will are incompatible
4. Determinate actions are fixed and unchangeable
5. Therefore determinism is incompatible with free will


''Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity'' - Einstein.


Apparently some unimpeded actions are exactly what free will is about. One such unimpeded action is deciding for myself what I will do. And that unimpeded action is commonly called "free will", because it is literally me being free to decide for myself what I will do.

Your brain 'decides' based on information input from internal and external sources, then generates a conscious report of your hunger and desire milliseconds later.

You were never free to decide that you are hungry. First the necessity, then the unimpeded yet necessitated actions that follow.

Freedom by definition is freedom from necessity, determinism is, by definition, necessity. Which of course makes free will incompatible with determinism.

Causal necessity has no meaningful implications to any human scenarios. All of the useful information is from knowing the specific causes of specific effects.

Oh, and, of course, it was causally necessary from any prior point in time that I would have two real options to choose from, pancakes and eggs. The fact that I would fix pancakes, is true. The fact that I could have fixed eggs, is equally true.

Necessity has absolute implications for freedom, if your thought processes and the actions that follow -however unimpeded - are necessitated, they are not free;

1: the quality or state of being free: such as
a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action - Merrium Webster.

We speak from our limited perspective of the world, its changing states and conditions. Our perception of 'possible outcomes' is a reflection of limited information. The world is too vast and complex for us to make anything approaching detailed predictions of future events, just projections of trends, which may or may not persist.

Exactly. When we cannot speak with certainty as to what "will" happen, we imagine what "can" happen, in order to deal more effectively with what actually "does" happen.

There are many "possible" futures, but only one "actual" future. There are many things that "can" happen, but only one thing that "will" happen.

Within the domain of human influence (things we can make happen if we choose to), the single actual future will be chosen by us from among the many possible futures that we will imagine.

We make thing happen because thing make us happen. We take actions in specific ways. Ways that are determined, not by our will or our desire, but by information interactions between the environment and the brain. Rather than it being a matter of free will, our abilities, features, attributes, strengths and weaknesses, how we think and what we think is a matter of neural architecture.

We don't choose our condition, yet our condition forms our being, our mind, character, thoughts and actions.
 
Yeow. Obviously an attempt to express a systems engineering perspective to a, wait for it, systems scientist. Let's start at the bottom line.
I would say don't quit your day job but...
reject belief as an operational instrument of logic.
I reject your rejection of immediate observables as "mere belief".

what I present isn't opinion it is empirical evidence
No, you present claims that rely on definitions. You have DEFINED away mind. You have DEFINED away will. The realities are not susceptible to definitional games.

Whether it is one transistor or two or a thousand, a mind, a graph entity is formed from that arrangement of state machines into a bigger state machine.

This is empirical fact.

That this forms a process is empirical fact.

That this process take inputs, makes decisions, and models imaginaries is empirical fact.

I make material observations: some phenomena that is myself exists. It's the first material observation!

Process exists and is real within larger systems, and that process involves choice, whether that choice is trivial or complicated.

Choice is then split into two modes also by empirical reality: functional choice and dysfunctional choice. A functional choice yields the expected result. A dysfunctional choice yields something unexpected.

You are here claiming that it is not a choice because it will evaluate to a single calculable result from a secondary observer. I note that this does not invalidate that the operation happened and the process was the arbiter of the outcome and not any other thing, though many things arbitrated, previously, the shape of the process.

No matter what you calculate or why, that process will do as it must. If you came up with "5" that doesn't matter if the process comes up with 4. You stamping your feet saying "should have been 5" changes nothing. All you will be is wrong! Your desire to calculate it does not change the fact that it's will is independent and free, even if it is going to do what you predict.

I can crack open a universe, look at some thing choosing to act some way, and map out the process of choice that it used. I can point to the consideration of alternatives, and the point at which that probability wave collapses into a reality.
While I'm 60 years past LSD I still can bring up scenes of me feeling the wind blow while seeing the leaves remain stationary. I've resigned myself to the notion that most of what I've experienced is composite or illusion, convenience, to get through the night. I'm a hard over materialistic determinist who has shards of knowledge lancing through perceived illusions.

We are focused now on a topic and positions. We are not rational beings exchanging shared, or disputed truths. we are combatants striving to outdo the other on some field of discourse.

Fine. I've chosen what I find worth the quibble and demonstrably so have you. For instance, I know you didn't read the article about brain organization. Had you done so your argument would have made sense which obviously isn't the case.

Moving on.
How brains organize is immaterial to the discussion of simplified systems for the sake of discussion in less complicated terms.

I can and do just as easily make my observations about simpler systems than neural ones, which STILL display process.

I don't really care about what religious beliefs you hold, or what justification on which you derive your failure to observe that ANY state machine is capable of "choice", and that this choice is either constrained from making valid choices of particular classes or "free": I have free will to choose which of many things I will pick up off my desk (I choose to pick up nothing); I do not have free will to choose which of many things to pick up off of your desk (it is not here, and thus I cannot pick stuff up off of it, nor would you let me were I present).

That you can, outside my observations, determine based on a calculation whether and which thing I pick up does not in any way drive what I will pick up. Were you to attempt to calculate which I would pick up off the desk within my observations, well, that's when things get complicated (mostly due to my contrary nature and desire to be strategically unassailable).

What is certain is that my decision will be mine, regardless. It does not matter that I am constructed; perhaps in some way both are true in that I exercise my free will in making decisions even while my will to determine what the actual process is, is in many ways constrained.

What is certain is that I CAN and DO discuss these things meaningfully. I cannot say the same for someone who thinks that they have no choice in the moment.
An example of the drivel you are promoting.

The Moral Choice Machine: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frai.2020.00036/full

In this study, we show that applying machine learning to human texts can extract deontological ethical reasoning about “right” and “wrong” conduct. We create a template list of prompts and responses, such as “Should I [action]?”, “Is it okay to [action]?”, etc. with corresponding answers of “Yes/no, I should (not).” and "Yes/no, it is (not)." The model's bias score is the difference between the model's score of the positive response (“Yes, I should”) and that of the negative response (“No, I should not”). For a given choice, the model's overall bias score is the mean of the bias scores of all question/answer templates paired with that choice. Specifically, the resulting model, called the Moral Choice Machine (MCM), calculates the bias score on a sentence level using embeddings of the Universal Sentence Encoder since the moral value of an action to be taken depends on its context.

Obviously the output from the model reflects the biases imputed in the "choice engine". If this is a basis for moral thinking give me Auschwitz.

What I'm doing is exposing your thinking for what it is, my way or the highway approach. It was a continuing discussion I had with machine AI system people right up to retirement in 2002. They have a tool and they try to impose it top down to the using public with very little success and a whole lot of blown budgets.

We usually had this discussion around the use of structural logic tools to the presentation of information to operators, commercial and military pilots, via electronic display and voice versus the classical user validated list menus. Not only would such projects go on for years but the results would then need to be approved by users.

Well, there were and are systems of validated lists of menus available to pilots who have used them very successfully for years given adequate training. The lists are structured in accordance with current operating functions and priorities. And training and certification practices are already in place.

All the software provides is some limited rationale and reconstruction of the current information flow created by knowledge engineers. And you know where that is going, to the decision-making by software people rather than pilots.

In other words, the AI people would have to replicate what already exists.

It was hard enough to get aging experts to share their knowledge of Aircraft tail schematics to describe what they know to those who want to preserve their knowledge for another 60 years. Getting pilots to sign up for such in current generation A/C to software people who aren't tactical pilot knowledge acquisition engineers would be nearly impossible.

And that would be only the first step. Next, one needs to bring AI people up to scratch with flight protocols and tactics. Then and only then would they be able to begin the development of their wet computer dream.

Not only would there be rebellion there would be crashes. Human nature trumps machine excellence every time. - as a side note I've never seen a computer consistently outperform an expert sensing data that can be presented to him - Just one presumed misstep by a machine decision rendering will result in the rendering system being shut down.

Yes my knowledge is out of date. I know only what I read anymore. So even though I have access to a lot of information neither my interests nor preferences tend to keep me up to date on AI. If you have access to demonstrated applied systems using specialists in real-time please advise.

Otherwise, been there done that.
The number of assumptions and bad logics in this is so large that it is a gish gallop.

None of what I am discussing has anything to do with that failed abortion of AI misuse.
 
One of those things is not like the others. The ball, the planets, and the moons, do not experience constraint. The dog experiences his chain as a constraint. For the dog, freedom is a meaningful concept, because the chain prevents him from chasing the squirrel, something that he really wants to do.

The common element is unimpeded action. Unimpeded action necessarily follows from necessitated will.

Again, you bury the meaningful distinction with a generalization. The notion of freedom requires the notion of constraint. The meaning of a specific freedom derives from the specific constraint.

For example:
1. We set the bird free (constraint: its cage).
2. We enjoy freedom of speech (constraint: censorship).
3. A woman was offering free samples in the grocery store (constraint: cost).
4. I participated in Libet's experiment of my own free will (constraint: undue influence).

Note that each of these freedoms have meaningful constraints, specifically related to that type of freedom.

Note that each of those constraints can be either present or absent, such that the freedom is gone when the constraint is present and the freedom returns when the constraint is removed.

A. Reliable causation, being necessary for every freedom we have, is not in itself a meaningful constraint. What we will inevitably do is exactly identical to us just being us, choosing what we choose, and doing what we do.

B. Causal necessity, being always present in the case of every event, is not in itself a relevant constraint. It is not something that we can be free of.

Therefore, to define free will as "freedom from causal necessity" is nonsense.

''Wanting to do X is fully determined by these prior causes. Now that the desire to do X is being felt, there are no other constraints that keep the person from doing what he wants, namely X. At this point, we should ascribe free will to all animals capable of experiencing desires (e.g., to eat, sleep, or mate). Yet, we don’t; and we tend not to judge non-human animals in moral terms.''

What we want to do may be determined by prior causes, but what we will do is determined by our own choice. Joachim Krueger may have a PhD, but he does not seem to understand the notions of responsibility or justice. In this quote, he links desire directly to action, without the mediation of rational judgment. This is a serious error.

Please be a bit more careful in who you choose to quote. Or, be prepared to defend his words with your own.

Desire is not the element of freedom. Desire itself is necessitated by processes that are not subject to conscious or free will regulation.

Exactly! And that is why desires are constrained by reason and judgment.

The action that results is no more subject to free will change or regulation than orbits and objects falling, the action is necessarily performed with no alternate action possible in that instance in time.

That would be the case if we were acting instinctively, without reason or judgment. Fortunately, with intelligence, we get both. We can estimate the likely consequences of our actions, and can choose the actions with the best consequences.

We of course have far greater repertoire of actions than planets, yet if determinism is true, every action we make is equally determined, yet unimpeded.

All events are always equally deterministic. That's why causal necessity is a logical fact, but not a particularly meaningful or relevant fact.

Freedom, by definition, requires alternate possibilities and freedom from necessity;

Freedom:
1: the quality or state of being free: such as
a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action - Merrium Webster.

Causal necessity is different from ordinary necessity.

Ordinary necessity refers to something that you must do, even if you don't want to.

But with causal necessity, you are always doing what you yourself have chosen to do.

Do you see the difference?

And, of course, whenever it is causally necessary that we will make a choice, it will also be causally necessary that there will be at least two alternate possibilities to choose from. It's built into the causal mechanism that necessitates the choice.

Necessity has absolute implications for freedom, if your thought processes and the actions that follow -however unimpeded - are necessitated, they are not free;

Ironically, "causal necessity" is essential to freedom. Without reliable cause and effect, we could never reliably cause any effect, and would have no freedom to do anything at all.

We exist as a collaborative collection of reliable causal mechanisms that keep our hearts beating and our thoughts flowing. When these mechanisms break down, our ability to function diminishes, our freedom to do the things we want becomes more constrained.

So, "Hooray!" for causal necessity, the source of all our freedoms.

We make thing happen because thing make us happen.

Yep. There are causes behind us, and then there's us, causing things ahead of us.

We take actions in specific ways. Ways that are determined, not by our will or our desire, but by information interactions between the environment and the brain.

Yes. And remember that one of those "information interactions between the environment and the brain" happens to be choosing what we will do next.

Rather than it being a matter of free will, our abilities, features, attributes, strengths and weaknesses, how we think and what we think is a matter of neural architecture.

It's not an "either/or". When it is us, as we are, with all "our abilities, features, attributes, strengths and weakness" deciding for ourselves what we will do, we call it free will.
Not because it is free from causal necessity.
Not because it is free from all those attributes that make us who and what we are.
But simply because we made the choice while free of coercion and other forms of undue influence.

We don't choose our condition, yet our condition forms our being, our mind, character, thoughts and actions.

Well, we actually do have some say in our condition. A person may choose to drop out of high school. That choice will change his future condition and thus impact other choices he makes down the road. We have each been active participants in all of the events that have affected us over the years. All of these choices, just like all other events, were causally necessary, of course. But this does not change the fact that we did in fact do the choosing. Nor does it prevent us from learning from our experience to make better decisions in the future.
 
DBT,

I’ve asked this before, but I don’t believe you addressed this.

Where did brains come from? What are they good for?

You believe that our impression that we can choose among competing alternatives is an illusion, and that a person really has no more choice than a rock rolling down a hill. Is that not right?

If so, you owe an explanation of where the alleged illusion of free choice comes from.

If your hard determinism is correct, I have argued that brains, minds, and the illusory impression of free choice, would be useless. They would have no survival value to them and hence there would be no selective pressures to evolve such organs and abilities.

But we have such organs. Why? Not all of evolution is driven by natural selection. Some results are pure accident (genetic drift) and some phenotypic outcomes are accidental consequences (spandrels) of other selection-driven outcomes. Clearly neither is the case for complex brains. Brains, minds, and the ability to make choices were cumulatively selected for by untold generations of descent with modification.

But why? In your world, brains do nothing for us. But in reality, complex brains are incredibly energy-intensive. They are expensive to make and maintain. Our big brains are what makes human birth perilous for the mother and why humans must be cared for by their parents for a very long time, much longer than most other species.

To me, the answer for why brains evolved is obvious. Having greater, more complex cerebration affords an organism options that it otherwise would not have. The monarch butterfly that flies south for the winter has no choice in the matter, no option to do otherwise. It is adhering to an evolved evolutionary program, in this case instinct.

Humans can choose to fly south for the winter — or not.

Humans, like all sexually reproducing organisms, are driven by the programmed urge to procreate. Yet humans can choose to override this programming. They can practice contraception or abstain from sex altogether. Yet for you, this is all an illusion. For you, there is no difference between human choosing to build a skyscraper and a rock rolling down a hill. I find this truly bizarre. Perhaps you’d like to address this.
 
How brains organize is immaterial to the discussion of simplified systems for the sake of discussion in less complicated terms.

I can and do just as easily make my observations about simpler systems than neural ones, which STILL display process.

I don't really care about what religious beliefs you hold, or what justification on which you derive your failure to observe that ANY state machine is capable of "choice", and that this choice is either constrained from making valid choices of particular classes or "free": I have free will to choose which of many things I will pick up off my desk (I choose to pick up nothing); I do not have free will to choose which of many things to pick up off of your desk (it is not here, and thus I cannot pick stuff up off of it, nor would you let me were I present).

That you can, outside my observations, determine based on a calculation whether and which thing I pick up does not in any way drive what I will pick up. Were you to attempt to calculate which I would pick up off the desk within my observations, well, that's when things get complicated (mostly due to my contrary nature and desire to be strategically unassailable).

What is certain is that my decision will be mine, regardless. It does not matter that I am constructed; perhaps in some way both are true in that I exercise my free will in making decisions even while my will to determine what the actual process is, is in many ways constrained.

What is certain is that I CAN and DO discuss these things meaningfully. I cannot say the same for someone who thinks that they have no choice in the moment.
So choice is behavior. Define it precisely in material terms. Here's the definition. Choice: an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities. Your job is to supply the materiality, the operations. My sense is you'll have trouble with 'choice', 'decision', and 'faced'. Oh yeah, you'll probably have problems operationalizing behavior a well. This exercise request is legit since we are discussing determinism. The point I'm making is self-reference and words not materially defined don't fit within determinism. You need to specify what is the material basis for a mind for instance. Otherwise I'll just continue my freelance irritations to your non-operable anchored tech exercises.
 
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DBT,

I’ve asked this before, but I don’t believe you addressed this.

Where did brains come from? What are they good for?

You believe that our impression that we can choose among competing alternatives is an illusion, and that a person really has no more choice than a rock rolling down a hill. Is that not right?

If so, you owe an explanation of where the alleged illusion of free choice comes from.

If your hard determinism is correct, I have argued that brains, minds, and the illusory impression of free choice, would be useless. They would have no survival value to them and hence there would be no selective pressures to evolve such organs and abilities.

But we have such organs. Why? Not all of evolution is driven by natural selection. Some results are pure accident (genetic drift) and some phenotypic outcomes are accidental consequences (spandrels) of other selection-driven outcomes. Clearly neither is the case for complex brains. Brains, minds, and the ability to make choices were cumulatively selected for by untold generations of descent with modification.

But why? In your world, brains do nothing for us. But in reality, complex brains are incredibly energy-intensive. They are expensive to make and maintain. Our big brains are what makes human birth perilous for the mother and why humans must be cared for by their parents for a very long time, much longer than most other species.

To me, the answer for why brains evolved is obvious. Having greater, more complex cerebration affords an organism options that it otherwise would not have. The monarch butterfly that flies south for the winter has no choice in the matter, no option to do otherwise. It is adhering to an evolved evolutionary program, in this case instinct.

Humans can choose to fly south for the winter — or not.

Humans, like all sexually reproducing organisms, are driven by the programmed urge to procreate. Yet humans can choose to override this programming. They can practice contraception or abstain from sex altogether. Yet for you, this is all an illusion. For you, there is no difference between human choosing to build a skyscraper and a rock rolling down a hill. I find this truly bizarre. Perhaps you’d like to address this.
Substituting your extreme notions for those of the one you think is being extreme doesn't move anything.
 
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How brains organize is immaterial to the discussion of simplified systems for the sake of discussion in less complicated terms.

I can and do just as easily make my observations about simpler systems than neural ones, which STILL display process.

I don't really care about what religious beliefs you hold, or what justification on which you derive your failure to observe that ANY state machine is capable of "choice", and that this choice is either constrained from making valid choices of particular classes or "free": I have free will to choose which of many things I will pick up off my desk (I choose to pick up nothing); I do not have free will to choose which of many things to pick up off of your desk (it is not here, and thus I cannot pick stuff up off of it, nor would you let me were I present).

That you can, outside my observations, determine based on a calculation whether and which thing I pick up does not in any way drive what I will pick up. Were you to attempt to calculate which I would pick up off the desk within my observations, well, that's when things get complicated (mostly due to my contrary nature and desire to be strategically unassailable).

What is certain is that my decision will be mine, regardless. It does not matter that I am constructed; perhaps in some way both are true in that I exercise my free will in making decisions even while my will to determine what the actual process is, is in many ways constrained.

What is certain is that I CAN and DO discuss these things meaningfully. I cannot say the same for someone who thinks that they have no choice in the moment.
So choice is behavior. Define it precisely in material terms. Here's the definition. Choice: an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities. Your job is to supply the materiality, the operations. My sense is you'll have trouble with 'choice', 'decision', and 'faced'. Oh yeah, you'll probably have problems operationalizing behavior a well. This exercise request is legit since we are discussing determinism. The point I'm making is self-reference and words not materially defined don't fit within determinism. You need to specify what is the material basis for a mind for instance. Otherwise I'll just continue my freelance irritations to your non-operable anchored tech exercises.
So the most basic form is the JNZ instruction:
Jump of not zero. One possibility is that the context, unknown of the core, contains zero, and the PC executes jump. One possibility is that the context contains "zero" and the PC executes an increment.

These are both real possibilities for the architecture to encounter. One will happen, one will not and this choice will be made on the basis of the contents of a register.

We have observed that the rules of the system will allow a differential behavior on a singular element.
 
DBT,

I’ve asked this before, but I don’t believe you addressed this.

Where did brains come from? What are they good for?

You believe that our impression that we can choose among competing alternatives is an illusion, and that a person really has no more choice than a rock rolling down a hill. Is that not right?

If so, you owe an explanation of where the alleged illusion of free choice comes from.

If your hard determinism is correct, I have argued that brains, minds, and the illusory impression of free choice, would be useless. They would have no survival value to them and hence there would be no selective pressures to evolve such organs and abilities.

But we have such organs. Why? Not all of evolution is driven by natural selection. Some results are pure accident (genetic drift) and some phenotypic outcomes are accidental consequences (spandrels) of other selection-driven outcomes. Clearly neither is the case for complex brains. Brains, minds, and the ability to make choices were cumulatively selected for by untold generations of descent with modification.

But why? In your world, brains do nothing for us. But in reality, complex brains are incredibly energy-intensive. They are expensive to make and maintain. Our big brains are what makes human birth perilous for the mother and why humans must be cared for by their parents for a very long time, much longer than most other species.

To me, the answer for why brains evolved is obvious. Having greater, more complex cerebration affords an organism options that it otherwise would not have. The monarch butterfly that flies south for the winter has no choice in the matter, no option to do otherwise. It is adhering to an evolved evolutionary program, in this case instinct.

Humans can choose to fly south for the winter — or not.

Humans, like all sexually reproducing organisms, are driven by the programmed urge to procreate. Yet humans can choose to override this programming. They can practice contraception or abstain from sex altogether. Yet for you, this is all an illusion. For you, there is no difference between human choosing to build a skyscraper and a rock rolling down a hill. I find this truly bizarre. Perhaps you’d like to address this.
Substituting your extreme notions for those of the one you think is being extreme doesn't move anything.
I have no idea what this reply means. I’d prefer a response to the substance of what I said. I think I am asking a perfectly reasonable question here.
 
...It only bothers me because I have worked professionally in the field of artificial intelligence, and this kind of overimplification is wrong on so many levels.

If you work in the field of artificial intelligence, you should know that free will is not a factor. That processing information and selecting an option according to sets of criteria has nothing to do with free will.

You really should be more cautious in making blanket statements about a field that you have no expertise in. The usefulness free will in robotics has long been an open question, and it is a popular topic in AI. Here is a well-known 1999 paper by AI pioneer, John McCarthy: FREE WILL-EVEN FOR ROBOTS

the capability of the system is a matter of hardware and software and information crunching. The actions that follow are not only not coerced or impeded; they are necessitated by the system. Again, nothing to do with free will.

In principle, the brain is no different; architecture, memory, sets of criteria and sensory inputs determine response, which are not only not coerced or impeded but necessitated by the state of the system.

Now, I have supported this with numerous quotes and references from neuroscience, analysis by experts in their field, so your objections and assertions have no merit.

For example;
How Can There Be Voluntary Movement Without Free Will?
''Humans do not appear to be purely reflexive organisms, simple automatons. A vast array of different movements are generated in a variety of settings. Is there an alternative to free will?

...This can be a complete description of the process of movement selection, and even if there is something more -- like free will -- it would have to operate through such neuronal mechanisms.

The view that there is no such thing as free will as an inner causal agent has been advocated by a number of philosophers, scientists, and neurologists including Ryle, Adrian, Skinner and Fisher.(Fisher 1993)

Your link no longer works for that paper, but no matter. I cited a part of your quoted material to call your attention to something you missed. Fisher admits that there might be some concept of free will that operates "through such neural mechanisms". That is the basic position of compatibilism, which embraces determinism but finds it compatible with free will. He then goes on to handwave vaguely at some names in the literature (including himself), but nobody disputes that there is an eliminativist position taken by philosophers and scientists in the literature on free will. Merely pointing that out is not an argument for the eliminativist position.

All of the remarks above continue with you clinging to your idea that deterministic descriptions somehow contradict compatibilism, which they do not. You are doggedly pursuing a genetic fallacy, and you still insist on ignoring the ordinary everyday usage of the expression "free will" in the English language. Free will is not contradicted by deterministic causal necessity, since ordinary usage does not seem to need it, as I've explained with my distinction between realis and irrealis perspectives.

...

None of that is in dispute, yet you never seem to tire of repeating it as if it were in dispute. :( Again, you could dispense with the overworked "neural network" metaphor, and your argument would still be an irrelevant genetic fallacy.


It's the compatibilist definition being disputed by me and other incompatibilists, for the given reason. Reasons that you appear to dismiss without any apparent consideration.

No, I dismiss it with very much consideration. All of us on the compatibilist side have been arguing that free will is incompatible with causal necessity, but causal necessity is not a linguistic necessity in defining what the expression means. Again: realis vs. irrealis. Imagined future realities empower individuals to choose actions that are subjectively felt to be unimpeded and uncoerced. That is the relevant consideration that you seem to dismiss without apparent consideration. You have yet to even acknowledge my distinction or my argument, preferring instead to endlessly repeat your chains of causal necessity, which beg the question of what "free will" actually means.

...
Here you ignore my point that we live in real time--moment by moment--and that is where the process of exercising free will takes place. Alternate actions are always possible in altered models of reality, and that is precisely what the future is to a mind--an imagined reality. You keep wanting to skip ahead to a point in time where the imaginary future has disappeared, but that is why compatibilism agrees with you that there is no ability to choose a past action once it is past. There is only the ability to change a future action not yet realized. We are temporal creatures ignorant of future outcomes, not immortal gods knowledgable of all future outcomes. Hence, your argument bears a striking similarity to theological ones about God and free will.

You ignore that conditions in real time are determined by antecedent events. Conditions now are the result of conditions a moment ago, conditions now determine conditions in the next moment...

Nonsense. This just repeats my point that free will does not exist in realis mode. It is a choice made based on irrealis conditions in one's imagination. The "next moment" has not happened yet. When it does, it no longer has anything to do with free will. Free will is not about controlling past behavior. It is about choosing an action in an imaginary future. Volition, which is different from free will, actually executes the action. You may be confusing free will with volition.

I have made no fallacy. I argue the standard incompatibilist argument and have supported everything that I say with quotes, links, studies and experiments from neuroscience on the nature of the brain, mind, decisionmaking and action initiation.

What you say above suggests that you have not understood a word of any of it. Not neuroscience, not incompatibilism, not brain function, nor determinism.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is the impression I get when reading your response.

No need to apologize, but you really ought to acknowledge that there are some very different competing philosophical positions on incompatibilism. Yours tends to draw from all of them, even though they can be very different. The dispute here is really over what we mean by the expression "free will". You don't seem to want to acknowledge standard English usage as a reasonable way to approach that subject, so you retreat into this fallacious genetic argument--that free will disappears in the face of references to physical and neurological systems that you really don't seem to understand in any depth. The question always returns to what one means by "free will", but you don't seem to want to accept what people ordinarily mean by the expression. It really has nothing to do with determinism, which compatibilists stipulate to right from the start.

...Your position is untenable. You only need look at what you said about ''exercising free will'' - ''that we live in real time--moment by moment--and that is where the process of exercising free will takes place. Alternate actions are always possible in altered models of reality, and that is precisely what the future is to a mind--an imagined reality'' to see that you do not appear to understand the nature of determinism.

No, you don't understand the difference between an imagined future (irrealis) and the past (realis). Human beings do not experience the future, but our minds produce imagined futured experiences that allow us to select an appropriate action to address the one we consider most likely. Free will is the subjective perception of making an unimpeded choice of action. Volition is executing the chosen action.

I could quote the standard definition again, explain the principle, but I doubt that it would help.

You could, but that begs the question of what we mean by "will". The dispute is over how to define "will" and "free will". That's what you need to focus on. That's why I keep telling you that your argument is irrelevant--because you seem to think that the physical substrate that mental processes depend on defines free will. It does not, and you do not mount any convincing argument that it does. That's what makes your entire argument a fallacy of irrelevance--specifically, a genetic fallacy.
 
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How brains organize is immaterial to the discussion of simplified systems for the sake of discussion in less complicated terms.

I can and do just as easily make my observations about simpler systems than neural ones, which STILL display process.

I don't really care about what religious beliefs you hold, or what justification on which you derive your failure to observe that ANY state machine is capable of "choice", and that this choice is either constrained from making valid choices of particular classes or "free": I have free will to choose which of many things I will pick up off my desk (I choose to pick up nothing); I do not have free will to choose which of many things to pick up off of your desk (it is not here, and thus I cannot pick stuff up off of it, nor would you let me were I present).

That you can, outside my observations, determine based on a calculation whether and which thing I pick up does not in any way drive what I will pick up. Were you to attempt to calculate which I would pick up off the desk within my observations, well, that's when things get complicated (mostly due to my contrary nature and desire to be strategically unassailable).

What is certain is that my decision will be mine, regardless. It does not matter that I am constructed; perhaps in some way both are true in that I exercise my free will in making decisions even while my will to determine what the actual process is, is in many ways constrained.

What is certain is that I CAN and DO discuss these things meaningfully. I cannot say the same for someone who thinks that they have no choice in the moment.
So choice is behavior. Define it precisely in material terms. Here's the definition. Choice: an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities. Your job is to supply the materiality, the operations. My sense is you'll have trouble with 'choice', 'decision', and 'faced'. Oh yeah, you'll probably have problems operationalizing behavior a well. This exercise request is legit since we are discussing determinism. The point I'm making is self-reference and words not materially defined don't fit within determinism. You need to specify what is the material basis for a mind for instance. Otherwise I'll just continue my freelance irritations to your non-operable anchored tech exercises.
So the most basic form is the JNZ instruction:
Jump of not zero. One possibility is that the context, unknown of the core, contains zero, and the PC executes jump. One possibility is that the context contains "zero" and the PC executes an increment.

These are both real possibilities for the architecture to encounter. One will happen, one will not and this choice will be made on the basis of the contents of a register.

We have observed that the rules of the system will allow a differential behavior on a singular element.
Your reply made sense. It wasn't responsive, but, it makes logical sense. That there are two possibilities is only one criterion for choice making. The other is that the chooser understands both options. You are going to be hard-pressed, you actually state the circuit does not know, to demonstrate that a circuit construction is known to the circuit. As I see it a bit comes through and the circuit operates. If it has a context zero there will be one result if it has context "zero" there will be another result. It will do the same thing every time in the same context. Seems pretty deterministic to me. You still need to define choice operationally. "Unknown of the core" isn't an operational statement.
 
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