Consciousness

[fromderinside]

Oh you mean that function partially controlled by inner ear, acoustic nucleus time differences, and neck muscle guidance system, that proprioceptive system guidance system.

Nope. no idea.

How about you tell us about it, how it is put together and how it works.

Geez man. Why did you think I mentioned cliff climbing? I had a bad night?

Next time get past that mouse trap people set to find whether another has read what is written.

It is clear you have no idea what it is.

The inner ear has nothing to do with it.

It is about receptors in the joints that tell the brain about joint position. Not the position of the body in relation to the horizontal.

The inner ear, neck positioning receptors, eye muscle receptors have almost everything to do with successfully getting a climber from one point to another on a cliff as I presented. The muscle and joint receptors are more locally focused and primarily operating without CNS guidance. Your posted answer is just plain incorrect response. The process is controlled by kinesthesetic system

I just provided information about knowing body position and orientation as you were talking about. It all you wanted was knowing where parts where relative to each other then what you say is mostly correct. Unfortunately we get about by integrating the whole thing into a single system which is primarily as I described using those you suggest as references for adjustment.

Again you introduce a red herring based on lack of reading comprehension into a discussion muddling it all up.

Why would you bring up proprioceptive receptors systems in this consciousness forum where your primary contention is you know you can consciously move your arm. Muscle and joint receptors perform unconsciously dealing with local muscle and bone relations. Not really relevant to your view, unless it makes use of the more consciously related kinesthetic system.

Think of it this way touching fingers proprioceptive, guiding one's step kinesthetic.

FYI:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/sensing-your-own-body-is-more-complicated-than-you-real-1473461740

http://study.com/academy/lesson/vestibular-and-kinesthetic-senses.html

 

[DrZoidberg]

Reading this thread I can hear the constant whizzing and whirring of goalposts being moved around.

 

[untermensche]

It is clear you have no idea what it is.

The inner ear has nothing to do with it.

It is about receptors in the joints that tell the brain about joint position. Not the position of the body in relation to the horizontal.

The inner ear, neck positioning receptors, eye muscle receptors have almost everything to do with successfully getting a climber from one point to another on a cliff as I presented.

And NOTHING to do with proprioception.

Which is what you claimed to know something about.

Your ass is showing. Pull up your pants young boy.

 

[fromderinside]

Primarily, if taken in context of relation of action to now. One cannot move forward without moving a leg, but, one can predict where that foot will fall if one is climbing a ledge. That prediction comes form knowing where one has been and what one can do given what one has received from senses and muscle feedback. Whether it is a successful prediction depends on whether one is alive after one's foot has moved.

Just covering a base here.

Have you ever heard of something called proprioception?

It allows us to know where our body is, not where it has been, with our eyes closed.

Like all senses it can be developed and when not relied on very much becomes weak.

You went to proprioception in response to my man taking a step on a ledge. Proprioception is not the appropriate response from you. Of course, after you made that blurt, I went from where I had been rather than changing the subject. As I noted the subject went right over your head.

Now that the goal posts are moved back where they started maybe you can tell us how proprioception manages the task of knowingly getting the man to move his foot to the proper place on a ledge while he's perched 50 feed from the ground.

After you fail at that, then come back to the question how does one knowingly make the proper step on a ledge.

Question begging and goal post changing charged against you here.

 

[untermensche]

Have you ever heard of something called proprioception?

It allows us to know where our body is, not where it has been, with our eyes closed.

Like all senses it can be developed and when not relied on very much becomes weak.

You went to proprioception in response to my man taking a step on a ledge. Proprioception is not the appropriate response from you. Of course, after you made that blurt, I went from where I had been rather than changing the subject. As I noted the subject went right over your head.

Now that the goal posts are moved back where they started maybe you can tell us how proprioception manages the task of knowingly getting the man to move his foot to the proper place on a ledge while he's perched 50 feed from the ground.

After you fail at that, then come back to the question how does one knowingly make the proper step on a ledge.

Question begging and goal post changing charged against you here.

Don't buy it.

Only part of the body is out of sight.

You don't need to use your inner ear to know where it is.

If you have developed your sense of proprioception with repeated and consistent practice.

 

[fromderinside]

You went to proprioception in response to my man taking a step on a ledge. Proprioception is not the appropriate response from you. Of course, after you made that blurt, I went from where I had been rather than changing the subject. As I noted the subject went right over your head.

Now that the goal posts are moved back where they started maybe you can tell us how proprioception manages the task of knowingly getting the man to move his foot to the proper place on a ledge while he's perched 50 feed from the ground.

After you fail at that, then come back to the question how does one knowingly make the proper step on a ledge.

Question begging and goal post changing charged against you here.

Don't buy it.

Only part of the body is out of sight.

You don't need to use your inner ear to know where it is.

If you have developed your sense of proprioception with repeated and consistent practice.

If you think you can do the finding and gauging where your foot will move to a ledge point that may need finding with just joint and muscle information you don't belong on the ledge in the first place. If you try your genes are going to be wasted on the hard ground below.

The difference between a high bar for a practiced gymnast and a ledge point for an experienced climber are as different as night and day. IMHO neither can accomplish the task of hitting the target without every sense they have available to them and consciousness of the situation.

Evaluated and measured workload of and effectiveness of procedures of highly practiced, motivated, fighter pilots. They never took anything for granted about the next maneuver, were always conscious of their situation, were always evaluating likelihoods of outcomes of this or that action, in every tactical situation. Yes, golden hands could out perform normal pilots with training, but, they never left anything to practice without conscious oversight.

 

[DBT]

Binding, spatial attention and perceptual awareness

Abstract

''The world is experienced as a unified whole, but sensory systems do not deliver it to the brain in this way. Signals from different sensory modalities are initially registered in separate brain areas — even within a modality, features of the sensory mosaic such as colour, size, shape and motion are fragmented and registered in specialized areas of the cortex. How does this information become bound together in experience? Findings from the study of abnormal binding — for example, after stroke — and unusual binding — as in synaesthesia — might help us to understand the cognitive and neural mechanisms that contribute to solving this 'binding problem'.''

 

[Kharakov]

Reading this thread I can hear the constant whizzing and whirring of goalposts being moved around.

It's almost like brains adjust goalposts to reasonable expectations. You ever try to convince a creationist to look outside of the bible for answers, and just accept that they are methodological liars who use the bible to maintain the hidden socioeconomic hierarchy?

 

[untermensche]

Binding, spatial attention and perceptual awareness

Abstract

''The world is experienced as a unified whole, but sensory systems do not deliver it to the brain in this way. Signals from different sensory modalities are initially registered in separate brain areas — even within a modality, features of the sensory mosaic such as colour, size, shape and motion are fragmented and registered in specialized areas of the cortex. How does this information become bound together in experience? Findings from the study of abnormal binding — for example, after stroke — and unusual binding — as in synaesthesia — might help us to understand the cognitive and neural mechanisms that contribute to solving this 'binding problem'.''

A very good question.

How does the brain provide consciousness with an unbroken visual experience?

Obviously "programs" of some biological kind are necessary.

 

[DBT]

Binding, spatial attention and perceptual awareness

Abstract

''The world is experienced as a unified whole, but sensory systems do not deliver it to the brain in this way. Signals from different sensory modalities are initially registered in separate brain areas — even within a modality, features of the sensory mosaic such as colour, size, shape and motion are fragmented and registered in specialized areas of the cortex. How does this information become bound together in experience? Findings from the study of abnormal binding — for example, after stroke — and unusual binding — as in synaesthesia — might help us to understand the cognitive and neural mechanisms that contribute to solving this 'binding problem'.''

A very good question.

How does the brain provide consciousness with an unbroken visual experience?

Obviously "programs" of some biological kind are necessary.

This issue of consciousness is not about autonomy but an integration of information from diverse sources, the senses and their related brain regions, etc, coming together into a 'global workspace' of conscious activity forming a coherent experience of the world and self.

 

[untermensche]

A very good question.

How does the brain provide consciousness with an unbroken visual experience?

Obviously "programs" of some biological kind are necessary.

This issue of consciousness is not about autonomy but an integration of information from diverse sources, the senses and their related brain regions, etc, coming together into a 'global workspace' of conscious activity forming a coherent experience of the world and self.

If I move my arm at will consciousness is directly tied to the will.

No such thing as a "global workspace" exists.

That is a placeholder phrase until the real situation is figured out.

It is a phrase that allows people that know nothing about how the brain does things to pretend they do.

 

[DBT]

This issue of consciousness is not about autonomy but an integration of information from diverse sources, the senses and their related brain regions, etc, coming together into a 'global workspace' of conscious activity forming a coherent experience of the world and self.

If I move my arm at will consciousness is directly tied to the will.

Your brain moves your arm while forming and generating the conscious experience of 'you' moving your arm. You still ignore the research showing that these functions can be separated, the arm moving while the subject denying that they moved their arm, and the subject claiming they are moving their arm when no such action is taking place.

No such thing as a "global workspace" exists.

'Global workspace' simply refers to the region of the brain where consciousness is being activated by the brain, brains being the only known source of consciousness. Your remarks just shows that you don't have a clue

 

[untermensche]

'Global workspace' simply refers to the region of the brain where consciousness is being activated by the brain, brains being the only known source of consciousness. Your remarks just shows that you don't have a clue

Where specifically is this imaginary thing you speak of?

Show me a picture of this "global workspace".

 

[fromderinside]

'Global workspace' simply refers to the region of the brain where consciousness is being activated by the brain, brains being the only known source of consciousness. Your remarks just shows that you don't have a clue

Where specifically is this imaginary thing you speak of?

Show me a picture of this "global workspace".

Here's one.

 

[DBT]

'Global workspace' simply refers to the region of the brain where consciousness is being activated by the brain, brains being the only known source of consciousness. Your remarks just shows that you don't have a clue

Where specifically is this imaginary thing you speak of?

Show me a picture of this "global workspace".

I've already explained, numerous times, that 'global workspace' refers to the electrochemical activity within a brain that is related to consciousness as reported by the subject, emotions felt, thoughts and actions.... predictions that are significantly better than chance having been made in the lab (fMRI) on the basis of neural acrivity prior to the subject becoming aware of making a decision.

If you can't grasp the significance of this, there is nothing I can do to help you,


Brain activity predicts decisions before they are consciously made.

''Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

The work calls into question the ‘consciousness’ of our decisions and may even challenge ideas about how ‘free’ we are to make a choice at a particular point in time.

“We think our decisions are conscious, but these data show that consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg,” says John-Dylan Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, Germany, who led the study.

“The results are quite dramatic,” says Frank Tong, a neuroscientist at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Ten seconds is "a lifetime” in terms of brain activity, he adds. ''

 

[untermensche]

Where specifically is this imaginary thing you speak of?

Show me a picture of this "global workspace".

View attachment 12151


Here's one.

That's what I thought.

It is a meaningless phrase.

 

[untermensche]

I've already explained, numerous times, that 'global workspace' refers to the electrochemical activity within a brain that is related to consciousness as reported by the subject, emotions felt, thoughts and actions.... predictions that are significantly better than chance having been made in the lab (fMRI) on the basis of neural acrivity prior to the subject becoming aware of making a decision....

You've claimed a lot. Explained nothing.

In these experiments what is the objective marker of a conscious decision?

 

[DBT]

I've already explained, numerous times, that 'global workspace' refers to the electrochemical activity within a brain that is related to consciousness as reported by the subject, emotions felt, thoughts and actions.... predictions that are significantly better than chance having been made in the lab (fMRI) on the basis of neural acrivity prior to the subject becoming aware of making a decision....

You've claimed a lot. Explained nothing.

In these experiments what is the objective marker of a conscious decision?

If you had read the description of the experiments given by the experimenters in the Max Planck Institute, and others, you would not have to ask a silly question. Besides, anything I say is immediately rejected. Hell, anything anyone says is immediately rejected. And why? Well, because it does not suit your beliefs. So out goes the research. Out goes all evidence. It does not suit Mr Untermensche.

 

[untermensche]

You've claimed a lot. Explained nothing.

In these experiments what is the objective marker of a conscious decision?

If you had read the description of the experiments given by the experimenters in the Max Planck Institute, and others, you would not have to ask a silly question. Besides, anything I say is immediately rejected. Hell, anything anyone says is immediately rejected. And why? Well, because it does not suit your beliefs. So out goes the research. Out goes all evidence. It does not suit Mr Untermensche.

I see no answer to my question.

 

[fromderinside]

I see no answer to my question.

You haven't read what DBT presented from experimenters at Max Planck Institute. Its not his problem. Your question has been answered.