Consciousness

[untermensche]

What causes the button to be pressed? The brain that is being presented with the available options and possible actions to be taken. The brain does this by gathering information from its immediate environment, processing this information in relation to its own base of information gained through experience, memory and learning, weighing the options according to its base of criteria and making conscious the decision - thoughts popping into awareness - and performing the motor action of pressing the chosen button.

You have no evidence anything besides consciousness knows what is going on.

You have no evidence "the brain" outside of a creation, consciousness, has any idea what is going on.

The computer chip that makes the letters that appear on the screen has no idea what letters are.

The PERSON pushes the button.

Not their brain.

You ignore the fact that a person is at the center of this study because you have no idea, in terms of brain activity, what a person is.

 

[George S]

What causes the button to be pressed? The brain that is being presented with the available options and possible actions to be taken. The brain does this by gathering information from its immediate environment, processing this information in relation to its own base of information gained through experience, memory and learning, weighing the options according to its base of criteria and making conscious the decision - thoughts popping into awareness - and performing the motor action of pressing the chosen button.

You have no evidence anything besides consciousness knows what is going on.

You have no evidence "the brain" outside of a creation, consciousness, has any idea what is going on.

The computer chip that makes the letters that appear on the screen has no idea what letters are.

The PERSON pushes the button.

Not their brain.

You ignore the fact that a person is at the center of this study because you have no idea, in terms of brain activity, what a person is.

Since PERSON (all caps) is a legal term, corporations count as PERSON, but not human being.

A given healthy human being can, through a (seeming) act of will move their hand up and down in a motion familiar to most men.

A (conscious) button push means that certain nerves sent signals to certain muscles to perform the push. Before that the idea of pushing the button is a twinkle in the brain.

An imagined thing (or perhaps two things).

An arbitrary choice is made and a computer can predict by looking at brain activity what button will be pushed before the conscious part of the brain is aware of the decision they have freely made.

Ain't that a stitch?

 

[untermensche]

You have no evidence anything besides consciousness knows what is going on.

You have no evidence "the brain" outside of a creation, consciousness, has any idea what is going on.

The computer chip that makes the letters that appear on the screen has no idea what letters are.

The PERSON pushes the button.

Not their brain.

You ignore the fact that a person is at the center of this study because you have no idea, in terms of brain activity, what a person is.

Since PERSON (all caps) is a legal term, corporations count as PERSON, but not human being.

A word is used as a legal term in a legal setting.

The word is used to mean consciousness here.

A (conscious) button push means that certain nerves sent signals to certain muscles to perform the push. Before that the idea of pushing the button is a twinkle in the brain.

That is the question.

What caused those nerves to act?

Consciousness with a thought?

Or just a brain with some kind of thoughts on the matter of it's own?

 

[fromderinside]

The PERSON pushes the button.

Not their brain.

You ignore the fact that a person is at the center of this study because you have no idea, in terms of brain activity, what a person is.

Well it's both. Without brain there is no person. Brain is part of person. It is the part that gathers what has been sensed, attended, and filtered, then triggers brain switches - neurons are the switches in the brain - leading the person to act a particular way in any instance. Say "know nothing" is way over the top. FYI Person in context of these experiments is an adult human person in context of being representative of adult humans rather than as individuals.

So, yeah, we know what a person is because we limit our investigations by burnishing from person as many individual attributes as necessary to get a 'universal' example as product.

What you need to know is all your critiques are answered as part of our procedural footnotes. Also when we speak of brain, just in case, we are speaking of 'universal' human brain.

 

[DBT]

What causes the button to be pressed? The brain that is being presented with the available options and possible actions to be taken. The brain does this by gathering information from its immediate environment, processing this information in relation to its own base of information gained through experience, memory and learning, weighing the options according to its base of criteria and making conscious the decision - thoughts popping into awareness - and performing the motor action of pressing the chosen button.

You have no evidence anything besides consciousness knows what is going on.

You have no evidence "the brain" outside of a creation, consciousness, has any idea what is going on.

The computer chip that makes the letters that appear on the screen has no idea what letters are.

The PERSON pushes the button.

Not their brain.

You ignore the fact that a person is at the center of this study because you have no idea, in terms of brain activity, what a person is.

There's the Mantra, out it comes, haha. If the persons brain is dysfunctional, the button is not pressed. The person does not even know what the button is or what is supposed to be done. The brain is the central information processor, so all decisions and actions are the work of the brain, including shaping and forming self identity and self awareness of one's body, feelings, thoughts and actions to perform.

 

[untermensche]

There's the Mantra, out it comes, haha. If the persons brain is dysfunctional, the button is not pressed. The person does not even know what the button is or what is supposed to be done. The brain is the central information processor, so all decisions and actions are the work of the brain, including shaping and forming self identity and self awareness of one's body, feelings, thoughts and actions to perform.

It only looks like a mantra to somebody with cognitive dissonance.

It is a very important philosophical point.

We only know for certain that consciousness is aware of thoughts and memories and sensations. We only know for certain that consciousness has a world view and understands how to operate in the world.

The brain itself somehow generates thoughts but that does not mean the brain itself is aware of them.

Just as the computer chip creates the letters on the screen but the chip is not aware of the letters.

You have to look at a screen to be aware of the letters. Without the screen no letters exist.

It is very possible only consciousness is aware of thoughts. Consciousness, a product of brain activity, not the brain itself.

Your tedious argument is that you know for certain the limits of this creation of the brain, consciousness, without even knowing what it is.

 

[DBT]

There's the Mantra, out it comes, haha. If the persons brain is dysfunctional, the button is not pressed. The person does not even know what the button is or what is supposed to be done. The brain is the central information processor, so all decisions and actions are the work of the brain, including shaping and forming self identity and self awareness of one's body, feelings, thoughts and actions to perform.

It only looks like a mantra to somebody with cognitive dissonance.

Coming from someone with considerable experience with that condition, therefore wrong.

It is a very important philosophical point.

Brain agency has nothing whatsoever to do with philosophy. You may as well philosophically argue the need for the presence Angels. It's not relevant. Philosophical inquiry or discussion is not the means by which an understanding of the brain and its functions can be achieved.

We only know for certain that consciousness is aware of thoughts and memories and sensations. We only know for certain that consciousness has a world view and understands how to operate in the world.

Consciousness is not an independent entity. The word consciousness is a broad reference to a collection of features and abilities such as thoughts and feelings.

The brain itself somehow generates thoughts but that does not mean the brain itself is aware of them.

OMG. It's the brain that is forming the experience of awareness/consciousness.

 

[untermensche]

Consciousness is not an independent entity....

It is.

It is what I use to write these words.

I am not using a brain to do it. I am using something a brain creates to do it. You are missing a step in the process. First the brain creates a consciousness, then the consciousness moves the arm at will.

You have lost any connection to the real situation. You merely can ape the bad ideas of others that can't be demonstrated in any way.

OMG. It's the brain that is forming the experience of awareness/consciousness.

It's the computer chip making the letters on your screen.

But a chip is not a thing that can know what a letter is. It merely makes them for something that understands what letters are. As the brain makes ideas for a consciousness that understands them to experience.

You make a philosophical error when you say that just because a brain can create a thought for consciousness to experience the brain itself also somehow experiences it.

The brain specifically creates a thought for consciousness, not for itself. It does not use words and images to accomplish it's cellular work.

 

[fromderinside]

Jeez. The brain move the arm for a reason determined by events and situations. The brain provides a theater for some to produce activity like "See I'm independent of my brain" - falsely. Nothing is worse than a system of processes that leads to the processor deceiving itself. Mankind developed science to debunk all that kind of stuff.

 

[untermensche]

The brain move the arm for a reason determined by events and situations....

A claim with not one shred of evidence to support it.

You have no evidence the brain has any understanding of events or situations.

A prejudice, nothing more.

Does a computer chip "understand"? Or is more needed to allow the chip to do anything of use?

 

[fromderinside]

The brain doesn't understand. It processes (one might say interprets) what is out there, has communication with squirts and twitches, has switches to direct synaptic flow to this or that consequence generating sequence. Deciding is an after the fact interpreting of what is happening which is generated by getting one's awareness on the world about one using various CNS processes. The person, a system consisting of all machinery for twitching and squirting, as I wrote earlier, decides and understands. Watched one of James Burkes Connections episodes on human information processing done in 1980. You could learn something from it.

People, you for instance, say the decide this and that and because they decided this or that the arm moves. Actually you are just reporting an self centered interpretation of what has just happened or reporting on what one may do in the future if all things continue going as they are.

 

[George S]

The brain doesn't understand. It processes (one might say interprets) what is out there, has communication with squirts and twitches, has switches to direct synaptic flow to this or that consequence generating sequence. Deciding is an after the fact interpreting of what is happening which is generated by getting one's awareness on the world about one using various CNS processes. The person, a system consisting of all machinery for twitching and squirting, as I wrote earlier, decides and understands. Watched one of James Burkes Connections episodes on human information processing done in 1980. You could learn something from it.

People, you for instance, say the decide this and that and because they decided this or that the arm moves. Actually you are just reporting an self centered interpretation of what has just happened or reporting on what one may do in the future if all things continue going as they are.

Ah, but FDI, there is a self, a me, an I... whose will exerts influence on the body. Gotcha. -- Unnamed strawman
Oh, wait. Suppose, just for grins and giggles, that this self is a part of [gasp!] the brain. The spokesman for this body/mind. I must justify what I just did. It is my job. When having reacted correctly or incorrectly in an emergency with no conscious effort, I get to explain. I am very good at justification. ... I was tempted. One thing led to another. It was harmless... ...Everybody uses it, can it be so bad?...
I am. And I have these unconscious parts which I rely on to keep body and me together. This frees me to dream. I do exert will through imagination. I plan. I store the plan with a trigger. And then ... when I need it I already know what to do. It is unconscious when I do it.

I am, thou art. And there will come a time when that's not true.
This, too, shall pass.

 

[DBT]

It is.

It is what I use to write these words.

Nope. Without a functioning brain, you the conscious entity shaped and formed and generated by this brain, would not recognize what you are responding to yet alone have the ability to respond.

I am not using a brain to do it. I am using something a brain creates to do it. You are missing a step in the process. First the brain creates a consciousness, then the consciousness moves the arm at will.

Your whole experience of moving at will is being produced by the brain in response to some form of input/stimuli.

You have lost any connection to the real situation. You merely can ape the bad ideas of others that can't be demonstrated in any way.

You pathologically ignore all evidence that contradicts your belief in autonomous consciousness, a belief that is completely unfounded.


Movement Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

A parietal-premotor network for movement intention and motor awareness
''It is commonly assumed that we are conscious of our movements mainly because we can sense ourselves moving as ongoing peripheral information coming from our muscles and retina reaches the brain. Recent evidence, however, suggests that, contrary to common beliefs, conscious intention to move is independent of movement execution per se. We propose that during movement execution it is our initial intentions that we are mainly aware of. Furthermore, the experience of moving as a conscious act is associated with increased activity in a specific brain region: the posterior parietal cortex. We speculate that movement intention and awareness are generated and monitored in this region. We put forward a general framework of the cognitive and neural processes involved in movement intention and motor awareness.''

 

[untermensche]

Your whole experience of moving at will is being produced by the brain in response to some form of input/stimuli.

A story for children.

A story you can demonstrate in no way.

You pathologically ignore all evidence that contradicts your belief in autonomous consciousness, a belief that is completely unfounded.

I ignore your total bullshit, like I ignore Trump's.

''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness.

Saying it is merely a "contender" is another way of saying "we don't really know".

 

[DBT]

There's the mantra, just click the right button and it activates without fail.....It's not my BS, it's just the evidence and the experts who do the research. However, I doubt that you could ever accept that. You prefer your own soothing little bubble of unreality.

 

[untermensche]

There's the mantra, just click the right button and it activates without fail.....It's not my BS, it's just the evidence and the experts who do the research. However, I doubt that you could ever accept that. You prefer your own soothing little bubble of unreality.

They have ulterior motives. Their little stories fall apart and what do they have?

I do not.

Your appeals to authority will always be nothing but logical fallacies.

You need more than fallacies.

You do not have the slightest bit of evidence that a brain understands a thought.

You cannot get around the fact that the one thing we know for certain is the brain creates thoughts FOR consciousness to experience.

We have NO evidence the brain does it for any other reason.

 

[fromderinside]

Right brain wrong reason. It's already been abundantly established living things are dependent on energy for existence. As far as I know that is the only reason the brain, a sub-element of a living thing, has evolved to do what it does. There is absolutely no evidence the brain creates thought or conscious experience for anything beyond serving behavior. It does operate to facilitate behavior, not all of it suited to increasing an individual's fitness, so saying either thought or consciousness are going to result in surviving behavior is are real stretch.

Your argument has just been buried.

 

[DBT]

Dead and buried long ago, but like the Walking Dead, the chief proponent of autonomous consciousness continues to scrape and claw his way out of the graveyard of his unfounded beliefs....

 

[untermensche]

Dead and buried long ago, but like the Walking Dead, the chief proponent of autonomous consciousness continues to scrape and claw his way out of the graveyard of his unfounded beliefs....

You've been told several times yet it flies over your head.

There is no difference in saying the brain makes a decision somehow and saying consciousness makes a decision somehow.

Neither are explained.

There is no substantial difference between the two.

If the brain can somehow make decisions then certainly some aspect of brain activity, consciousness, could too.

You explain how a brain makes a decision and you will have some credibility here. But really explain, not just throw around empty jargon like "workspace" that has no physiological explanation.

Claiming to know and understand is not the same thing as actually explaining something. Claiming an event occurs in some part of the brain is not explaining anything.

And merely posting research we have no idea if you comprehend is not an argument of any kind.

 

[DBT]

There is a vast difference between brain generated consciousness and your unfounded notion of autonomous consciousness....otherwise, why would you bother spending time arguing for your assertion over the span of 274 pages on this thread, and other threads, if there is no difference between what you claim and what the evidence is telling us, but you reject?