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Consciousness

You have no idea what qualia is and yet you feel comfortable saying that dis and dat is not possible?
Go fuck yourself.

Tone it down, man. We're on the internet talking about the mind-body problem in philosophy. Not really a discussion that warrants bringing the heat and spitting f-bombs at people you disagree with, okay?

No. Seriously. You havent been in this discussion so long as I have.
Its not about me disagreeing with what ryan believe, its about intellectual honesty.
What is the point of trying to have a conversation if the other person just say anything?
Unter is the top example but ryan seems to at least have the capacity to acheive a something that looks like
rational thought but then he now and then delivers obvious thought turds that show of nothing else than total
disrespect for the discussion.
 
Tone it down, man. We're on the internet talking about the mind-body problem in philosophy. Not really a discussion that warrants bringing the heat and spitting f-bombs at people you disagree with, okay?

No. Seriously. You havent been in this discussion so long as I have.
Its not about me disagreeing with what ryan believe, its about intellectual honesty.
What is the point of trying to have a conversation if the other person just say anything?
Unter is the top example but ryan seems to at least have the capacity to acheive a something that looks like
rational thought but then he now and then delivers obvious thought turds that show of nothing else than total
disrespect for the discussion.
Sure thing dude.
 
Ouch you hit my wheel house with that.

Sensation was my original game. Discovering the one-third octave organization imposed by the organ of corti made sense of human sensing consonance and dissonance for me.

Understanding the relationship of visual motion detection to action in frogs to a person stopped at an intersection stomping on the brakes when a bus pulls up on her right put sense stuff into evolutionary perspective. If you are interested you can read up on the critical band in hearing.

So yes we do you and measure the quality of sensing and of the sensing. In fact possibly our greatest accomplishemts are with making instruments that bring thing down or up to human size as with monstet telescopes and Haldron Colliders. An author and team lead of that project leading to the discovery of Higgs boson particle said it really well. He said something to the effect that humans are the masters of the telescope, masters of of bringing the very distant and very small into our perceptive window.

We do measure sense quality. We relegate sense to the capacity of our receptors to code fundamental material activity in measuring displacement to an angstrom to hear and detection as little as four photons to see and we find this works very well when modelling sensory function which we do when we build operator simulators and simulations. Any book on Human Factors and ergonomics will give you a basis for understanding how we do measure sense by measuring effectiveness of sensors.

You're right, that was poorly phrased on my part. What I'm trying to convey is that the perspective you're describing constitutes the external aspect of sensing, i.e., what sensing looks like from the outside. Sensing looks different from the perspective of the one doing the sensing. That doesn't make it a new thing, with its own thingness (whatever that may mean), just a different angle that isn't captured by the outside view.

The philosophical question, which you may or may not have any interest in, is whether one of these perspectives can be fully described in terms of the other, or whether they are mutually irreducible. For example. There are multiple ways to look at a digital image. One way is to analyze the components and map each pixel. Another way is to view it as a whole, and see it's a picture of a dog. In this case, the second perspective is reducible to the first. If you have all the pixels and know where they go and what color they are, you can reconstruct the dog in the picture.

But is there a way, even in principle, to reconstruct the experience of something visceral and unmistakable--let's say the feeling of nausea--with only an external description of what is happening? Given all the 'pixels' of physiology that satisfy the functional requirements of feeling nauseated, as well as their exact roles and input/output states, the peculiar discomfort of nausea would nonetheless remain absent from this model. That's what I mean when I say the internal aspect isn't explicable by way of the external aspect.

Do you agree, or do you think that a complete explanatory model of nausea would be able to convey how it feels to someone who has never been nauseated?

Qualia is not knowledge.

The only way for you to "know" how it is to be ill is to relive some part of it.
The only way for you to "know" how what red is to you is to revive the actual memory.

When you remember what red is like you actual see this red, this representation of red, to your inner eye", again.
This is what memory is. It is re-living the impression.

So to "know" somebody else qualia is to have the same impression.
Not be told some complete brain state description.

This is no problem vis a vi what we can know about the brain.
It is not a "hard problem" that needs to be solved.
 
We experience qualia. We are qualia. We don't know how qualia/self awareness is formed by the sole known source of qualia/self awareness, a functional brain generating the activity of qualia/self awareness formation.
 
Tone it down, man. We're on the internet talking about the mind-body problem in philosophy. Not really a discussion that warrants bringing the heat and spitting f-bombs at people you disagree with, okay?

No. Seriously. You havent been in this discussion so long as I have.
Its not about me disagreeing with what ryan believe, its about intellectual honesty.
What is the point of trying to have a conversation if the other person just say anything?
Unter is the top example but ryan seems to at least have the capacity to acheive a something that looks like
rational thought but then he now and then delivers obvious thought turds that show of nothing else than total
disrespect for the discussion.

The absurd idea I have encountered over and over in this thread is the idea that there can be experience with only the things experienced and without something that experiences them.

It shows a complete lack of the ability to think rationally.

That is what I have put up with
 
We experience qualia. We are qualia. We don't know how qualia/self awareness is formed by the sole known source of qualia/self awareness, a functional brain generating the activity of qualia/self awareness formation.
Exactly.

Qualia are generated by the neurology. What is the frequency of purple? There is no purple in the rainbow. There is no purple when white light is run through a prism.

"The Dress" is perceived as different colors by different people's neurology.

[YOUTUBE]jexnhNfOzHg[/YOUTUBE]

The color generation of the mind in response to any given frequency of light depends on what the unconscious mind thinks the color of the light source is, what the shadows are.

same-color-illusion-big.png

Among other things the neurology generates its best guess as to the state of reality. You know how to use a cylinder (paper towel tube) to perceive the appearance (qualia) of a hole in your own hand.

[YOUTUBE]DtkU8meLxSc[/YOUTUBE]
 
Sure, if there is experience there must be a "quality" to it.

The idea of "qualia" is a redundant concept that holds no special significance.

Beyond the phenomena of experience, the phenomena of consciousness.

So understanding that color is something created by brains tells us nothing about consciousness.

Consciousness is that which experiences color.

Put on colored glasses and consciousness experiences different colors.

I know some may think because I say consciousness experiences color that means consciousness is somehow external to the workings of the brain, but that does not follow.

All it means is the brain is doing one thing, making representations, and also doing another, making that which is experiencing the representations.

But consciousness is that which is experiencing the representations, experiencing color, not the representations.
 
...
Consciousness is that which experiences color.
...

What is the meaning of "to experience" to you? You experience. Where is this "you" who experiences. You seem to think it is separate from the body. Were "you" able to "experience" before your body was born? No, of course not. Will "you" be able to "experience" after your body dies? Of course not.

A human being is or is not conscious. Does the experiencer of consciousness disappear when someone is knocked unconscious?

Consciousness is not that which experiences color and other qualia. Human beings experience qualia. "Human beings" does not equate with "consciousness."
 
Tone it down, man. We're on the internet talking about the mind-body problem in philosophy. Not really a discussion that warrants bringing the heat and spitting f-bombs at people you disagree with, okay?

No. Seriously. You havent been in this discussion so long as I have.
Its not about me disagreeing with what ryan believe, its about intellectual honesty.
What is the point of trying to have a conversation if the other person just say anything?
Unter is the top example but ryan seems to at least have the capacity to acheive a something that looks like
rational thought but then he now and then delivers obvious thought turds that show of nothing else than total
disrespect for the discussion.

Fromderinside's quote, "Well to the degree that humans can project things that will be sense or felt by others (mirror systems?) which can convey how nausea feels." do you really think that's what is happening: the qualia of nausea gets "projected" to others? Or do you think there is a physical medium between similar systems that trigger qualia in each mirroring system with non-qualia means?

In everyday day language it might seem okay to say that his sadness "spread" to others. But do you really think that the qualia of sadness floats through the air and affects everyone? No, it is generated and isolated in very specific physical systems, possibly "physically mirroring" systems.

Fromderinside set up a strawman. PyamidHead was clearly talking about conveying the actual qualia that is felt, not the physical causes and effects that generate qualia. By using ambiguous semantics fromderinside split the meaning to answer a more obvious question.
 
Qualia is not knowledge.

It is a very popular philosophical notion that qualia is knowledge, for example,

"Actual Russellian sense-data are immaterial individuals; so the materialist cannot admit that the greenness of the after-image is a property of an actual sense-datum.".

from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
 
We experience qualia. We are qualia. We don't know how qualia/self awareness is formed by the sole known source of qualia/self awareness, a functional brain generating the activity of qualia/self awareness formation.

But there's more. There is knowing that you are aware of green and not red. Structurally, this is part of the "unity" phenomenon/problem of consciousness. And this unity is more than the sum of the parts; it acts as a sort of an internal partial omniscience of what's going on mentally.

It is a problem because physical components/particles of the brain are "free", spatially segregated and discrete; they don't represent this kind of absolute unity. There is no wholeness like what we have that gives us the very meaning to everything including our own logic.

(This is why quantum entanglement should be found in the brain)
 
...
Consciousness is that which experiences color.
...

What is the meaning of "to experience" to you? You experience. Where is this "you" who experiences. You seem to think it is separate from the body. Were "you" able to "experience" before your body was born? No, of course not. Will "you" be able to "experience" after your body dies? Of course not.

A human being is or is not conscious. Does the experiencer of consciousness disappear when someone is knocked unconscious?

Consciousness is not that which experiences color and other qualia. Human beings experience qualia. "Human beings" does not equate with "consciousness."

Consciousness is the name we give that part of the human that experiences.

The whole human does not experience. The foot does not experience. The spleen does not experience.

Consciousness is that which experiences.

And nobody knows what consciousness is.

Some have a hypothesis it is something created by the brain. That's as far as our knowledge goes beyond our subjective experience.
 
We experience qualia. We are qualia. We don't know how qualia/self awareness is formed by the sole known source of qualia/self awareness, a functional brain generating the activity of qualia/self awareness formation.

But there's more. There is knowing that you are aware of green and not red. Structurally, this is part of the "unity" phenomenon/problem of consciousness. And this unity is more than the sum of the parts; it acts as a sort of an internal partial omniscience of what's going on mentally.

It is a problem because physical components/particles of the brain are "free", spatially segregated and discrete; they don't represent this kind of absolute unity. There is no wholeness like what we have that gives us the very meaning to everything including our own logic.

(This is why quantum entanglement should be found in the brain)

That's a conclusion from left field.

We know that many areas of the brain are involved in any function that is understood.

Many parts of the brain are involved in the creation of the visual field (what we see). But the visual field is a unity. It does not have gaps, with normal vision. It is actually two slightly different "pictures", one from each eye, turned into a 3D unity.

So a unity can be created by the brain.

Consciousness could be a unity, a unified ability to experience, and still just be a creation of the brain.

Being a unity does not necessarily have to involve quantum explanations. But quantum explanations might possibly be needed to explain consciousness.
 
But there's more. There is knowing that you are aware of green and not red. Structurally, this is part of the "unity" phenomenon/problem of consciousness. And this unity is more than the sum of the parts; it acts as a sort of an internal partial omniscience of what's going on mentally.

It is a problem because physical components/particles of the brain are "free", spatially segregated and discrete; they don't represent this kind of absolute unity. There is no wholeness like what we have that gives us the very meaning to everything including our own logic.

(This is why quantum entanglement should be found in the brain)

That's a conclusion from left field.

We know that many areas of the brain are involved in any function that is understood.

What are you saying here? Of course understood functions in the brain are envolved in the brain.

Many parts of the brain are involved in the creation of the visual field (what we see). But the visual field is a unity. It does not have gaps, with normal vision. It is actually two slightly different "pictures", one from each eye, turned into a 3D unity.

Yes I know there is unity; that's why I brought it up.

So a unity can be created by the brain.

Consciousness could be a unity, a unified ability to experience, and still just be a creation of the brain.
Who said it wouldn't be a creation of the brain???

Being a unity does not necessarily have to involve quantum explanations. But quantum explanations might possibly be needed to explain consciousness.

Except that there are absolutely no known instances in nature that have the holistic existence (irreducible existence) the way that the consciousness and QM have.

The math agrees (Wang's Quantum Consciousness). There are possible explanations of mechanisms (Fisher's hypothesis with Posener molecules). And even evidence of QM vibrations helping Hameroff and Penrose's Orch OR Theory.
 
Except that there are absolutely no known instances in nature that have the holistic existence (irreducible existence) the way that the consciousness and QM have.

Nothing in QM is anything remotely like consciousness. You might as well compare consciousness to gravity.

The math agrees (Wang's Quantum Consciousness).

That is a hypothesis with nothing connecting it to consciousness because we don't know what consciousness is.

There are possible explanations of mechanisms (Fisher's hypothesis with Posener molecules). And even evidence of QM vibrations helping Hameroff and Penrose's Orch OR Theory.

None of this has been connected to any aspect of consciousness.

Because as I have said nobody knows what consciousness is. These are mere hypotheses with nothing to support them.

Matter has quantum effects. Finding quantum effects in matter does not demonstrate quantum effects involved in consciousness.

Consciousness may involve effects on a different scale than quantum effects.
 
Nothing in QM is anything remotely like consciousness. You might as well compare consciousness to gravity.

3 ways QM is like consciousness:

1. Consciousness has irreducible structure, like QM.

2. Physical correlations of conscious decision-making behaves like QM mathematically.

3. Consciousness and matter, including QM, are causally related.

The math agrees (Wang's Quantum Consciousness).

That is a hypothesis with nothing connecting it to consciousness because we don't know what consciousness is.

nothing, except for the math.

There are possible explanations of mechanisms (Fisher's hypothesis with Posener molecules). And even evidence of QM vibrations helping Hameroff and Penrose's Orch OR Theory.

None of this has been connected to any aspect of consciousness.

Because as I have said nobody knows what consciousness is. These are mere hypotheses with nothing to support them.

Matter has quantum effects. Finding quantum effects in matter does not demonstrate quantum effects involved in consciousness.

Consciousness may involve effects on a different scale than quantum effects.

Apparently, the discovery of quantum vibrations in microtubules helps their Orch OR Theory of a quantum consciousness.
 
3 ways QM is like consciousness:

1. Consciousness has irreducible structure, like QM.

QM is a mathematical description of structure.

Consciousness allegedly is a consequence of structure. It is an ability.

They are not close to the same thing.

One is an abstraction of experience, a reduction to mathematics, the other is not an abstraction.

Talking about an ability to experience as an abstraction does not make sense anyway. It is a real ability. What it experiences may be abstract but not the act of experiencing them.

2. Physical correlations of conscious decision-making behaves like QM mathematically.

Decision making is something I say consciousness is capable of to a degree.

But it does not behave mathematically. Nothing behaves mathematically. Nothing moves in a perfectly straight or smooth line.

Math can be used to abstractly describe behavior, but no aspect of matter is aware of mathematics.

It is only human minds that know about mathematics.

3. Consciousness and matter, including QM, are causally related.

QM has a connection to consciousness, a reason to distrust it, but that does not mean consciousness has a connection to QM.

That of course is the question here.

We do not take it for granted.
 
1. Consciousness has irreducible structure, like QM.
QM is a mathematical description of structure.

Consciousness allegedly is a consequence of structure. It is an ability.

They are not close to the same thing.

We are talking about how the consciousness is like QM. The consciousness is described as a unified structure like QM.

One is an abstraction of experience, a reduction to mathematics, the other is not an abstraction.

Talking about an ability to experience as an abstraction does not make sense anyway. It is a real ability. What it experiences may be abstract but

not the act of experiencing them.

You seem to be arguing about what they are and not thinking about any similar properties that they may share.

2. Physical correlations of conscious decision-making behaves like QM mathematically.

Decision making is something I say consciousness is capable of to a degree.

But it does not behave mathematically. Nothing behaves mathematically. Nothing moves in a perfectly straight or smooth line.

Math can be used to abstractly describe behavior, but no aspect of matter is aware of mathematics.

It is only human minds that know about mathematics.

Yes, the math is only a description of what it behaves like. It's like saying a person accelerating in a spaceship behaves like gravity on a massive body. QM behaves like decision-making mathematically.

3. Consciousness and matter, including QM, are causally related.

QM has a connection to consciousness, a reason to distrust it, but that does not mean consciousness has a connection to QM.

That of course is the question here.

We do not take it for granted.

Be more specific; are you talking about a one-way causal connection from mind to body or from body to mind?
 
QM is a mathematical description of structure.

Consciousness allegedly is a consequence of structure. It is an ability.

They are not close to the same thing.

We are talking about how the consciousness is like QM. The consciousness is described as a unified structure like QM.

QM is not a unified structure. It is many separate models of discreet phenomena. The only thing connecting them is they occur in the same universe.

One is an abstraction of experience, a reduction to mathematics, the other is not an abstraction.

Talking about an ability to experience as an abstraction does not make sense anyway. It is a real ability. What it experiences may be abstract but

not the act of experiencing them.

You seem to be arguing about what they are and not thinking about any similar properties that they may share.

They have no similar properties.

Consciousness is the ability to be conscious of things.

Neuroscience has taken us from the point of thinking consciousness is being conscious of the world to being conscious of representations of the world.

But QM is a bunch of mathematical formulas and models and descriptions to explain the models.

It has no known connection to consciousness.

Yes, the math is only a description of what it behaves like. It's like saying a person accelerating in a spaceship behaves like gravity on a massive body. QM behaves like decision-making mathematically.

Math does not describe how anything behaves. It is an abstraction.

As I said nothing moves in a perfectly straight line.

Points do not exist.

Mathematics is always an approximation. Always an abstraction of behavior. Never a perfect description.

Be more specific; are you talking about a one-way causal connection from mind to body or from body to mind?

I am talking about the place of observation in QM. It has a place.

But that does not mean QM has a place in the explanation of consciousness.
 
If the person has seen red he has memories of the color in context of the image in which it is contained. Calling up that memory and running it through processing will probably recall the image, the blue image, as a processed fact at some point in that exercise. That event is sufficient for me to say the individual believes the red in the image is red and he will represent that to others. That is his characterization of red when he points to the image with the red information in it.
 
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