Consciousness

[fromderinside]

Just for you untermenche


Consciousnerss and neuroscience http://authors.library.caltech.edu/40355/1/feature_article.pdf

and more recently

Scientists conclude nonhuman animals are conscious. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...onclude-nonhuman-animals-are-conscious-beings

My suggestion for you is read, read, then read some more.

 

[fromderinside]

Sorry. My justifications are scientific studies and scientific theories. Much closer to facts than argument.

 

[fromderinside]

The human is that which can experience silly one.

You can call consciousness "the human" but you haven't explained anything or changed anything.

They are not a consciousness.

Not in that sentence certainly. But, the rest of my post explains a lot.

 

[bilby]

Consciousness is a set of patterns of electro-chemical activity in the cerebral cortex.

We know this, because interfering with those patterns (either electrically, chemically, or magnetically) causes reports of changes to consciousness by the subject of that interference.

Nothing else is involved, because there's nothing else that is physically able to communicate with the cerebral cortex to either collect information about the interference, or to transmit back a response. We know what is there, and we know how it communicates with the rest of the body and thereby the rest of the universe.

So we must conclude that certain complex patterns of electro-chemical activity are exactly equal to consciousness.

Now we can't tell exactly what patterns give rise to consciousness and what patterns do not. And we probably never will be able to - because we only have access to one consciousness - our own - and we infer consciousness in others from the assumption that their similarity to us, both in construction and behaviour, make this the most parsimonious inference to draw.

Is a rock conscious? A bacterium? These are not likely, in my opinion, to be sufficiently complex - but we cannot know for sure. How about a cockroach? Or a dog? Or another human being? Again, we can't be sure; But it seems likely to me that the dog and the human are conscious, based on their observed behaviour.

What about a simulation of a cockroach's brain? Or a dog's? Or a human's? Is there any reason to think that a sufficiently accurate simulation would not be similarly conscious? I don't think there is; But again, it's never likely to be possible to know.

Anything beyond the above is either: Counterfactual - eg dualism, which is ruled out by observation and basic physics; Or purely speculative and un-testable - which will doubtless keep you guys occupied for another couple of thousand futile posts.

 

[untermensche]

We know this, because interfering with those patterns (either electrically, chemically, or magnetically) causes reports of changes to consciousness by the subject of that interference.

Really?

We put people in huge magnets, MRI machines.

And it has no effect on consciousness.

 

[bilby]

We know this, because interfering with those patterns (either electrically, chemically, or magnetically) causes reports of changes to consciousness by the subject of that interference.

Really?

We put people in huge magnets, MRI machines.

And it has no effect on consciousness.

Geez, you really are hard of thinking, aren't you?

Why do you embarrass yourself like this?

Sure, it's possible to do things that don't have a large effect on consciousness. Nobody, other than the almost terminally simple, ever suggested that it wasn't.

Taking Aspirin doesn't (usually) cause hallucinations, despite having a chemical effect on the brain. That doesn't mean that taking tablets of any chemical composition is possible without such effects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation

 

[untermensche]

Sorry. My justifications are scientific studies and scientific theories. Much closer to facts than argument.

When I read ignorant shit like this:

...Philosophers, in their carefree way,...

I don't take what I am reading seriously.

Yes you have to do something.

You have to tell me what part of that horribly bad article should be taken seriously.

 

[untermensche]

Really?

We put people in huge magnets, MRI machines.

And it has no effect on consciousness.

Geez, you really are hard of thinking, aren't you?

Why do you embarrass yourself like this?

Sure, it's possible to do things that don't have a large effect on consciousness. Nobody, other than the almost terminally simple, ever suggested that it wasn't.

Taking Aspirin doesn't (usually) cause hallucinations, despite having a chemical effect on the brain. That doesn't mean that taking tablets of any chemical composition is possible without such effects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation

I said MRI.

I know reading that many letters can be difficult.

And what you presented is not any effect on consciousness.

And talking about how drugs change consciousness does not support your claims of "patterns" in any way.

 

[bilby]

Geez, you really are hard of thinking, aren't you?

Why do you embarrass yourself like this?

Sure, it's possible to do things that don't have a large effect on consciousness. Nobody, other than the almost terminally simple, ever suggested that it wasn't.

Taking Aspirin doesn't (usually) cause hallucinations, despite having a chemical effect on the brain. That doesn't mean that taking tablets of any chemical composition is possible without such effects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation

I said MRI.

I know reading that many letters can be difficult.

And what you presented is not any effect on consciousness.

I read what you wrote; And had you read my response for comprehension, you would know that I dismissed it as the stupidity that it clearly was.

I apologize for not dumbing down my dismissal of your idiocy to a level that you could comprehend, but I am fearful from reading your posts that it may be impossible to do so.

 

[untermensche]

I said MRI.

I know reading that many letters can be difficult.

And what you presented is not any effect on consciousness.

I read what you wrote; And had you read my response for comprehension, you would know that I dismissed it as the stupidity that it clearly was.

I apologize for not dumbing down my dismissal of your idiocy to a level that you could comprehend, but I am fearful from reading your posts that it may be impossible to do so.

You were claiming consciousness is effected by magnetic fields.

The evidence of MRI machines is evidence that clearly disputes that hypothesis.

Start over. The hypothesis is nonsense.

 

[bilby]

I read what you wrote; And had you read my response for comprehension, you would know that I dismissed it as the stupidity that it clearly was.

I apologize for not dumbing down my dismissal of your idiocy to a level that you could comprehend, but I am fearful from reading your posts that it may be impossible to do so.

You were claiming consciousness is effected by magnetic fields.

It can be.

The evidence of MRI machines is evidence that clearly disputes that hypothesis.

No, it isn't. Just as the evidence of tapping gently on the side of someone's head is not evidence that blows to the head cannot affect consciousness.

Start over. The hypothesis is nonsense.

You don't have the ability to grasp what the hypothesis IS, so you are far from qualified to declare it nonsense.

Your doing so anyway is hardly a surprise, though. You seem very keen to declare as nonsense that which you do not understand. It's therefore unsurprising that you never seem to learn a damn thing.

You don't even seem to have noticed that if you modified my post to remove all reference to magnetic effects, it would make no substantive change to my claim - so even if you were right, you would be making a pointless point.

Why not shut up and try to learn something for once?

 

[untermensche]

You were claiming consciousness is effected by magnetic fields.

It can be.

I await any evidence.

The evidence of MRI machines is evidence that clearly disputes that hypothesis.

No, it isn't. Just as the evidence of tapping gently on the side of someone's head is not evidence that blows to the head cannot affect consciousness.

Because of the power of these magnets, the MRI suite can be a very dangerous place if strict precautions are not observed. Metal objects can become dangerous projectiles if they are taken into the scan room. For example, paperclips, pens, keys, scissors, hemostats, stethoscopes and any other small objects can be pulled out of pockets and off the body without warning, at which point they fly toward the opening of the magnet (where the patient is placed) at very high speeds, posing a threat to everyone in the room. Credit cards, bank cards and anything else with magnetic encoding will be erased by most MRI systems.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question698.htm

The hypothesis is nonsense. Start over. You are pretending to understand something.

And as I said drugs effecting consciousness do not demonstrate anything about "patterns".

You have no evidence of these "patterns" you speak of.

Sure one can imagine patterns of neurons.

But there is no evidence this imaginary thing has anything to do with consciousness.

 

[bilby]

It can be.

I await any evidence.

The evidence of MRI machines is evidence that clearly disputes that hypothesis.

No, it isn't. Just as the evidence of tapping gently on the side of someone's head is not evidence that blows to the head cannot affect consciousness.

Because of the power of these magnets, the MRI suite can be a very dangerous place if strict precautions are not observed. Metal objects can become dangerous projectiles if they are taken into the scan room. For example, paperclips, pens, keys, scissors, hemostats, stethoscopes and any other small objects can be pulled out of pockets and off the body without warning, at which point they fly toward the opening of the magnet (where the patient is placed) at very high speeds, posing a threat to everyone in the room. Credit cards, bank cards and anything else with magnetic encoding will be erased by most MRI systems.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question698.htm

The hypothesis is nonsense. Start over. You are pretending to understand something.

And as I said drugs effecting consciousness do not demonstrate anything about "patterns".

You have no evidence of these "patterns" you speak of.

Sure one can imagine patterns of neurons.

But there is no evidence this imaginary thing has anything to do with consciousness.

Your unshakable belief that anyone who understands something that you do not is 'pretending' is the most likely cause of your deep, deep ignorance.

Fortunately, as you are not a pupil of mine, I have no need to give a shit abut your continued ignorance, so I shall not be wasting my time further on this.

If anyone competent has something to say in response to my post, I shall be happy to discuss it with them.

Goodbye.

 

[untermensche]

I await any evidence.

The evidence of MRI machines is evidence that clearly disputes that hypothesis.

No, it isn't. Just as the evidence of tapping gently on the side of someone's head is not evidence that blows to the head cannot affect consciousness.

Because of the power of these magnets, the MRI suite can be a very dangerous place if strict precautions are not observed. Metal objects can become dangerous projectiles if they are taken into the scan room. For example, paperclips, pens, keys, scissors, hemostats, stethoscopes and any other small objects can be pulled out of pockets and off the body without warning, at which point they fly toward the opening of the magnet (where the patient is placed) at very high speeds, posing a threat to everyone in the room. Credit cards, bank cards and anything else with magnetic encoding will be erased by most MRI systems.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question698.htm

The hypothesis is nonsense. Start over. You are pretending to understand something.

And as I said drugs effecting consciousness do not demonstrate anything about "patterns".

You have no evidence of these "patterns" you speak of.

Sure one can imagine patterns of neurons.

But there is no evidence this imaginary thing has anything to do with consciousness.

Your unshakable belief that anyone who understands something that you do not is 'pretending' is the most likely cause of your deep, deep ignorance.

Fortunately, as you are not a pupil of mine, I have no need to give a shit abut your continued ignorance, so I shall not be wasting my time further on this.

If anyone competent has something to say in response to my post, I shall be happy to discuss it with them.

Goodbye.

Well that defense didn't last very long.

You don't have the slightest clue what consciousness is.

If you make the claim again I will dispute it.

 

[bilby]

I await any evidence.

The evidence of MRI machines is evidence that clearly disputes that hypothesis.

No, it isn't. Just as the evidence of tapping gently on the side of someone's head is not evidence that blows to the head cannot affect consciousness.

Because of the power of these magnets, the MRI suite can be a very dangerous place if strict precautions are not observed. Metal objects can become dangerous projectiles if they are taken into the scan room. For example, paperclips, pens, keys, scissors, hemostats, stethoscopes and any other small objects can be pulled out of pockets and off the body without warning, at which point they fly toward the opening of the magnet (where the patient is placed) at very high speeds, posing a threat to everyone in the room. Credit cards, bank cards and anything else with magnetic encoding will be erased by most MRI systems.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question698.htm

The hypothesis is nonsense. Start over. You are pretending to understand something.

And as I said drugs effecting consciousness do not demonstrate anything about "patterns".

You have no evidence of these "patterns" you speak of.

Sure one can imagine patterns of neurons.

But there is no evidence this imaginary thing has anything to do with consciousness.

Your unshakable belief that anyone who understands something that you do not is 'pretending' is the most likely cause of your deep, deep ignorance.

Fortunately, as you are not a pupil of mine, I have no need to give a shit abut your continued ignorance, so I shall not be wasting my time further on this.

If anyone competent has something to say in response to my post, I shall be happy to discuss it with them.

Goodbye.

Well that defense didn't last very long.

You don't have the slightest clue what consciousness is.

If you make the claim again I will dispute it.

Too late. You should have done so the first time around, instead of being silly.

 

[untermensche]

Too late. You should have done so the first time around, instead of being silly.

Your goodbyes are kinda short.

You claimed magnetic fields can alter consciousness.

You claimed MRI's are a tap.

Your nonsense about "patterns" is as bad as your claims.

 

[bilby]

Too late. You should have done so the first time around, instead of being silly.

Your goodbyes are kinda short.

No, you just don't take a hint.

You claimed magnetic fields can alter consciousness.

I did. Because they can. But you know better, despite having fuck all evidence. So I am no longer interested in discussing this with you - we are now engaged in a meta-discussion about whether or not I should obey YOUR rules of debate, or whether I remain a free agent having declared my participation in one aspect of the debate to be over. Oddly, I don't feel the need to care about your childish rules.

You claimed MRI's are a tap.

No, I made an analogy. Your inability to grasp even this rudimentary aspect of discussion is as unsurprising as it is pathetic.

Your nonsense about "patterns" is as bad as your claims.

LOL. You have demonstrated only that you don't have a fucking clue what it is I claimed; You are so far out of your depth that you risk the bends if you were to try to learn anything.

Now please fuck off and let the adults talk, there's a good chap.

 

[untermensche]

Now please fuck off and let the adults talk, there's a good chap.

Translation.

You want to spew worthless nonsense about "patterns" and don't care if it is nonsense.

You want to masturbate in public and not be told to move along.

 

[bilby]

Now please fuck off and let the adults talk, there's a good chap.

Translation.

You want to spew worthless nonsense about "patterns" and don't care if it is nonsense.

You want to masturbate in public and not be told to move along.

LOL.

You appear to be addressing your mirror.

Hint - Not everyone is just like you.

 

[untermensche]

Translation.

You want to spew worthless nonsense about "patterns" and don't care if it is nonsense.

You want to masturbate in public and not be told to move along.

LOL.

You appear to be addressing your mirror.

Hint - Not everyone is just like you.

If there were any substance to your claims you would calmly present it instead of engaging in this manner.

You are demonstrating the vacuous nature of your claims.

This gibberish about "patterns" is a half-baked notion that goes nowhere.

There is nothing to connect "patterns" to consciousness.