Consciousness

[untermensche]

?

What we learn is how to control our bodies with our "minds".

We learn what we must do to get the arm to move for us, the way we want it to move and when we want it to move.

Are you claiming you can't move your arm at "will"?

Because the only people who can't do it have neurological problems. They had a stroke or a spinal cord injury or a brain tumor or some other kind of trauma. Intact humans can move all their limbs at "will".

You are missing the elephant in the room. You don't consider what posters are trying to tell you. You ignored the questions I raised in relation to the described experiments and their results (typically), only to repeat your favourite mantras. You are clearly wrong about consciousness being an autonomous agency, but refuse to even consider the possibility.

I know that the field is full of nonsense like the things you are trying to sell, and failing.

You do not understand one aspect of brain activity. Not one bit.

Your claims about knowing what consciousness can and can't do are based on flawed third rate irrational musings, not any evidence.

Repeating the word "autonomous" over and over is not an argument.

Using an aspect of brain activity (consciousness) to move the arm is merely using one aspect of brain activity to influence another.

The only question is: How?

 

[none]

What's a good book that explains the human brain for 8 to 10 year old English speakers?

 

[bilby]

What's a good book that explains the human brain for 8 to 10 year old English speakers?

I dunno, but it sounds too advanced for untermensche.

 

[fromderinside]

We tried, we tried some more, He denied we tried. So we tried again ...and again we tried. Still he denied. Gave him rope. He hung himself.

Time to start a new thread requiring reference to refereed articles.

 

[DBT]

Now you are ignoring the elephant of childhood development, when we learn motor skills, long before we become conscious of ourselves... or "me".
Again, if we were the only animal doing this, then something else might be going on...but clearly it isn't the case.

?

What we learn is how to control our bodies with our "minds".

We learn what we must do to get the arm to move for us, the way we want it to move and when we want it to move.

Are you claiming you can't move your arm at "will"?

Because the only people who can't do it have neurological problems. They had a stroke or a spinal cord injury or a brain tumor or some other kind of trauma. Intact humans can move all their limbs at "will".

It is the developing brain that learns to walk, talk, recognize, move limbs, pick up objects, etc, and a part of that ability and process of learning and adapting to changing circumstances involves consciously representing the external world and self as a feedback mechanism, to adjust, to adapt, to respond. Consciousness plays an indispensable role that enables complex interactions, but the ultimate agency is still the brain. That is what you need to understand.

 

[untermensche]

?

What we learn is how to control our bodies with our "minds".

We learn what we must do to get the arm to move for us, the way we want it to move and when we want it to move.

Are you claiming you can't move your arm at "will"?

Because the only people who can't do it have neurological problems. They had a stroke or a spinal cord injury or a brain tumor or some other kind of trauma. Intact humans can move all their limbs at "will".

It is the developing brain that learns to walk, talk, recognize, move limbs, pick up objects, etc, and a part of that ability and process of learning and adapting to changing circumstances involves consciously representing the external world and self as a feedback mechanism, to adjust, to adapt, to respond. Consciousness plays an indispensable role that enables complex interactions, but the ultimate agency is still the brain. That is what you need to understand.

The developing child learns how to control their limbs with their "will". That's why you can move your arm at "will".

When a child has CP and they have trouble controlling their limbs a therapist uses the "will" of the child to help it gain better control. Nothing else is available.

And the "will" can make changes to the brain.

We know this. It is undeniable.

 

[untermensche]

What's a good book that explains the human brain for 8 to 10 year old English speakers?

It is great ignorance to think any bit of consciousness is explained anywhere.

Not one aspect of experience is understood on the physiological level.

Not how the brain creates the visual experience, not how it creates a thought, not how it creates an emotion.

All we know about experience is subjective. We have no objective understanding of any of it.

 

[untermensche]

We tried, we tried some more, He denied we tried. So we tried again ...and again we tried. Still he denied. Gave him rope. He hung himself.

Time to start a new thread requiring reference to refereed articles.

You have tried to pass off ignorance as knowledge.

And have been called out on it.

The idea that even one aspect of experience is understood physiologically is a lie.

 

[fromderinside]

Have you ever wondered why you get a feeling that you heard something that later is verified by others? It's an experience of threshold perception. Want to take a guess of which of us studied that phenomenon? Of course not. That wouldn't interest you. It's a study of experience.

 

[none]

What's a good book that explains the human brain for 8 to 10 year old English speakers?

It is great ignorance to think any bit of consciousness is explained anywhere.

Not one aspect of experience is understood on the physiological level.

Not how the brain creates the visual experience, not how it creates a thought, not how it creates an emotion.

All we know about experience is subjective. We have no objective understanding of any of it.

I guess there is a reason you are debating this on an online forum instead of university

 

[untermensche]

It is great ignorance to think any bit of consciousness is explained anywhere.

Not one aspect of experience is understood on the physiological level.

Not how the brain creates the visual experience, not how it creates a thought, not how it creates an emotion.

All we know about experience is subjective. We have no objective understanding of any of it.

I guess there is a reason you are debating this on an online forum instead of university

Is this some last resort?

I do this because I freely choose to do it. It amuses me.

Why do you?

 

[none]

I guess there is a reason you are debating this on an online forum instead of university

Is this some last resort?

I do this because I freely choose to do it. It amuses me.

Why do you?

So you aren't serious, you just deny for amusement figures
Haven fun the more serious people haven tried to educate you me included
There is no common ground with someone promoting mind body duality as rabid as you
Its curious that you think the brain has activity and there is outside agent, you haven't put together anything coherent other than "no way!"
Yes to the theist its crazy to be non theist, but somebody has to be the grown up
If you truly believe you are speaking to people with the intellect of children then maybe you should work on your thesis so children can understand you
There is no credible evidence of dualism that some outside agency besides the brain being esponsible for thought and motor control, and this fact is elementary
Seriously I consider that you actually believe that the brain is just an antenna for some cosmic agency that only you know of and can't bring to the table with coherent dialogue
But you brush this all aside because you think you are talking to children, another delusion you happen to believe
When you get done offering a coherent argument instead of "Im talking to children" and "the brain isn't responsible for thought" because of cognitive bias you might achieve something besides being a troll
Now you can troll me us, or you can present something coherent
Until then nothing will change about you, that you will still be in denial
Its not that hard to understand you are trolling

 

[untermensche]

Is this some last resort?

I do this because I freely choose to do it. It amuses me.

Why do you?

So you aren't serious, you just deny for amusement figures
Haven fun the more serious people haven tried to educate you me included
There is no common ground with someone promoting mind body duality as rabid as you
Its curious that you think the brain has activity and there is outside agent, you haven't put together anything coherent other than "its crazy"
Yes to the theist its crazy to be non theist, but somebody has to be the grown up
If you truly believe you are speaking to people with the intellect of children then maybe you should work on your thesis so children can understand you
There is no credible evidence of dualism that some outside agency besides the brain being esponsible for thought and motor control, and this fact is elementary
Seriously I consider that you actually believe that the brain is just an antenna for some cosmic agency that only you know of and can't bring to the table with coherent dialogue
But you brush this all aside because you think you are talking to children, another delusion you happen to believe
When you get done offering a coherent argument instead of "Im talking to children" and "the brain isn't responsible for thought" because of cognitive bias you might achieve something besides being a troll
Now you can troll me us, or you can present something coherent
Until then nothing will change about you, that you will still be in denial
Its not that hard to understand you are trolling

I have tried to educate them.

Don't try to bullshit me.

They are claiming they know about the "will" and what is behind "intention".

The entire world works on the premise that humans freely make decisions with their minds and act on those decisions.

That is the basis of the entire criminal justice system.

And this is not any kind of mystical dualism.

It is a "module" of brain activity (consciousness) having an effect on other brain activity.

Claiming it is mystical because you don't know how it happens is hollow criticism.

 

[none]

So you aren't serious, you just deny for amusement figures
Haven fun the more serious people haven tried to educate you me included
There is no common ground with someone promoting mind body duality as rabid as you
Its curious that you think the brain has activity and there is outside agent, you haven't put together anything coherent other than "its crazy"
Yes to the theist its crazy to be non theist, but somebody has to be the grown up
If you truly believe you are speaking to people with the intellect of children then maybe you should work on your thesis so children can understand you
There is no credible evidence of dualism that some outside agency besides the brain being esponsible for thought and motor control, and this fact is elementary
Seriously I consider that you actually believe that the brain is just an antenna for some cosmic agency that only you know of and can't bring to the table with coherent dialogue
But you brush this all aside because you think you are talking to children, another delusion you happen to believe
When you get done offering a coherent argument instead of "Im talking to children" and "the brain isn't responsible for thought" because of cognitive bias you might achieve something besides being a troll
Now you can troll me us, or you can present something coherent
Until then nothing will change about you, that you will still be in denial
Its not that hard to understand you are trolling

I have tried to educate them.

Don't try to bullshit me.

They are claiming they know about the "will" and what is behind "intention".

The entire world works on the premise that humans freely make decisions with their minds and act on those decisions.

That is the basis of the entire criminal justice system.

And this is not any kind of mystical dualism.

It is a "module" of brain activity (consciousness) having an effect on other brain activity.

Claiming it is mystical because you don't know how it happens is hollow criticism.

And yet you're are the one in denial
Put together your thesis and quit picking on people
It's well thought out or not and your whining to hide that truth that you are mistaken is completely obvious
Instead of attacking everybody put together an argument besides "I don't believe because I don't understand because I believe in mind body dualism"
I rather you do that than try and pick a fight with me over something as trivial as you are a moron
And yes I tried to explain the brain to you and what was your response "its to complicated for children"
If there is something immaterial you won't find any evidence of it, so its a bad argument
Dark matter is invisible not immaterial
So chat it up

 

[untermensche]

Claiming it is mystical because you don't know how it happens is hollow criticism.

And yet you're are the one in denial
Put together your thesis and quit picking on people
It's well thought out or not and your whining to hide that truth that you are mistaken is completely obvious
Instead of attacking everybody put together an argument besides "I don't believe because I don't understand because I believe in mind body dualism"
I rather you do that than try and pick a fight with me over something as trivial as you are a moron
And yes I tried to explain the brain to you and what was your response "its to complicated for children"

Again, the entire world works on the premise that humans can make free decisions with their "minds".

The fact that a few people here disagree with the entire world doesn't impress me.

Criticism and destruction of bad ideas is as productive as creating good ones.

I have not heard many good ideas in this thread.

I have heard claims that are absurd and irrational.

Like some person's brain came up with the Theory of Relativity on it's own, as a complicated reflex.

As if the god's programmed the universe to cause some human's brain to come up with it.

 

[none]

And yet you're are the one in denial
Put together your thesis and quit picking on people
It's well thought out or not and your whining to hide that truth that you are mistaken is completely obvious
Instead of attacking everybody put together an argument besides "I don't believe because I don't understand because I believe in mind body dualism"
I rather you do that than try and pick a fight with me over something as trivial as you are a moron
And yes I tried to explain the brain to you and what was your response "its to complicated for children"

Again, the entire world works on the premise that humans can make free decisions with their "minds".

The fact that a few people here disagree with the entire world doesn't impress me.

Criticism and destruction of bad ideas is as productive as creating good ones.

I have not heard many good ideas in this thread.

I have heard claims that are absurd and irrational.

Like some person's brain came up with the Theory of Relativity on it's own, as a complicated reflex.

As if the god's programmed the universe to cause some human's brain to come up with it.

Right out of the gate you mention mind, its as if you don't understand that mind, minds, and the mind have no set definition
They are intellectually ambiguous
Try again, this time dont be foolish

 

[untermensche]

Again, the entire world works on the premise that humans can make free decisions with their "minds".

The fact that a few people here disagree with the entire world doesn't impress me.

Criticism and destruction of bad ideas is as productive as creating good ones.

I have not heard many good ideas in this thread.

I have heard claims that are absurd and irrational.

Like some person's brain came up with the Theory of Relativity on it's own, as a complicated reflex.

As if the god's programmed the universe to cause some human's brain to come up with it.

Right out of the gate you mention mind, its as if you don't understand that mind, minds, and the mind have no set definition
They are intellectually ambiguous
Try again, this time dont be foolish

If you are not going to engage, fine. I don't care.

You have not demonstrated you have anything worth knowing.

There are two choices.

The universe was "programmed" to cause some human brain to come up with the Theory of Relativity.

Or, some human, with control, used their "mind" (consciousness) to sift through existing ideas and also used their "imagination" (consciousness) to come up with it.

 

[none]

Right out of the gate you mention mind, its as if you don't understand that mind, minds, and the mind have no set definition
They are intellectually ambiguous
Try again, this time dont be foolish

If you are not going to engage, fine. I don't care.

You have not demonstrated you have anything worth knowing.

There are two choices.

The universe was "programmed" to cause some human brain to come up with the Theory of Relativity.

Or, some human, with control, used their "mind" (consciousness) to sift through existing ideas and also used their "imagination" (consciousness) to come up with it.

Ooh now mind is followed by parenthesis next it will be etc etc
You are making a fool of yourself
The quotes around mind is cute

 

[untermensche]

If you are not going to engage, fine. I don't care.

You have not demonstrated you have anything worth knowing.

There are two choices.

The universe was "programmed" to cause some human brain to come up with the Theory of Relativity.

Or, some human, with control, used their "mind" (consciousness) to sift through existing ideas and also used their "imagination" (consciousness) to come up with it.

Ooh now mind is followed by parenthesis next it will be etc etc
You are making a fool of yourself
The quotes around mind is cute

What exactly do you think you know about "mind" that the whole world does not?

Again.

Either some god "programmed" the universe to come up with the Theory of Relativity. The position of the religious faithful.

Or some human did it freely with their "mind".

The position of the rational.

 

[none]

Ooh now mind is followed by parenthesis next it will be etc etc
You are making a fool of yourself
The quotes around mind is cute

What exactly do you think you know about "mind" that the whole world does not?

Again.

Either some god "programmed" the universe to come up with the Theory of Relativity. The position of the religious faithful.

Or some human did it freely with their "mind".

The position of the rational.

I said mind, minds, and the mind have no set definition and you illustrate that by qualifying mind with quotes
So I don't know what you are talking about because nether do you