Contemplating short dresses and cleavage on teens

[TSwizzle]

No, but I think you're cutting corners on your logic. The implication you are making is that women forgo sexual attraction and instead chose physical or financial security. While that certainly happens, it's not by design. Nor what are talking about. We are talking about what we actually find sexually attractive in a partner. Women are often sexually turned on by muscles and/or money. Ie expressions power. Women who go for this aren't less biologicaly remote controlled or more rational. Sexual attraction is never rational.

No it is not and it doesn't even have to be a physical/visual attribute, it could be a smell for example.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Seriously, suppose that the survival of the species depended upon humanity locating and colonizing a planet light years away. It would truly be wasteful to send men when you could simply have a large female crew of appropriate genetic fitness and of appropriate reproductive age and a nice, diverse and large bank of sperm samples from men who have been screened for genetic fitness, etc. Seriously: why waste any precious space on a spacecraft when some sperm would do just as well?

And similarly, they could just install artificial wombs on the ship and populate it entirely with men, who'd all be able to provide either an X or a Y chromosome for the next generation as opposed to wasting space with some pointless subspecies of humanity who only have X chromosomes. It would also have the added benefit that once you get to the planet, all of the colonists would be able to open their own jars.

 

[Toni]

Seriously, suppose that the survival of the species depended upon humanity locating and colonizing a planet light years away. It would truly be wasteful to send men when you could simply have a large female crew of appropriate genetic fitness and of appropriate reproductive age and a nice, diverse and large bank of sperm samples from men who have been screened for genetic fitness, etc. Seriously: why waste any precious space on a spacecraft when some sperm would do just as well?

And similarly, they could just install artificial wombs on the ship and populate it entirely with men, who'd all be able to provide either an X or a Y chromosome for the next generation as opposed to wasting space with some pointless subspecies of humanity who only have X chromosomes. It would also have the added benefit that once you get to the planet, all of the colonists would be able to open their own jars.

Yes, but I was being realistic. My plan would use already existing technology for populating a planet. Long term storage of sperm is already possible and much easier, cheaper and more reliably produces usable gametes vs storage of ova. You didn't even address the difficulties in harvesting and storing ova for those non-existent artificial wombs. Sperm is easily and readily collected at virtually no cost (monetary or biologically) to the donor, unlike ova. This is without considering that artificial wombs have not been created and are not yet available and would take much more space than sperm storage. Sperm would provide all that was necessary with relative ease of storage and utilization and as you pointed out(I had not thought it necessary to mention that but perhaps I wrote my post poorly and it was unclear), provide X and Y chromosomes so that male and female children could be created as desired. It’s much more cost and space effective and efficient. Also women are, on average, smaller than men and so either we could send more female explorers (more genetic diversity) vs male explorers or utilize the saved weight for other cargo. We could even send already fertilized eggs or simply ova waiting for fertilization, to increase the genetic diversity even more, although storage requirements are more complex than sperm storage. There is the possibility of using your idea of artificial wombs but again: we don't have that technology yet and it would be much require much more space on any spacecraft or initial colony set up....

Of course, I was only speaking about the practicalities and economics of sperm vs ova harvesting/storage and utilization of these. Worth considering is this: Women tend to be less violent and less competitive and tend to form cooperative rather than competitive groups vs men and in that way, they might be more suited to long distance space travel and to start colonizing another planet than men would be.

Parthenogenesis was a different idea altogether. It is entirely different and much more speculative than an all female crew plus sperm for space colonization. Those were two different scenarios :
1. all female crew plus sperm
OR
2. Parthenogenesis. I was assuming that this would happen on earth. But sure, it could be a strategy for space colonization. Parthenogenesis, aside from not occurring in humans at this time, does have the disadvantage of limiting genetic diversity.

Of course there was the other scenario where women basically live in their own society and when they think it is necessary, select men who are kept elsewhere for breeding purposes. w

In these scenarios, men would become at least temporarily obsolete or would be relegated to being kept for breeding purposes only. Sort of how women were treated for millennia. I'm sorry if my original post was unclear. I'm not advocating for any of these except that the more that I think about it, sending all female crews for colonization makes a lot of sense, at least initially.


I haven't addressed any of the sociological or societal aspects of this at all. From a merely practical standpoint, it makes a lot more sense to send all female space crews plus sperm if you want to colonize another planet. You get the most opportunity for larger crews (and greater genetic diversity), saves extremely valuable space, and so on.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Seriously, suppose that the survival of the species depended upon humanity locating and colonizing a planet light years away. It would truly be wasteful to send men when you could simply have a large female crew of appropriate genetic fitness and of appropriate reproductive age and a nice, diverse and large bank of sperm samples from men who have been screened for genetic fitness, etc. Seriously: why waste any precious space on a spacecraft when some sperm would do just as well?

And similarly, they could just install artificial wombs on the ship and populate it entirely with men, who'd all be able to provide either an X or a Y chromosome for the next generation as opposed to wasting space with some pointless subspecies of humanity who only have X chromosomes. It would also have the added benefit that once you get to the planet, all of the colonists would be able to open their own jars.

Yes, but I was being realistic. Long term storage of sperm is already possible and much easier, cheaper and more reliably produces usable gametes vs storage of ova much less the creation and utilization of artificial wombs which are not yet available and would take much more space than sperm storage. Sperm would provide all that was necessary with relative ease of storage and utilization and as you pointed out(I had not thought it necessary), provide X and Y chromosomes so that make and female children could be created as desired. It’s much more cost and space effective.

Parthenogenesis is entirely different and much more speculative than an all female crew plus sperm for space colonization.

You could also just store eggs and keep all of your colonists working at peak efficiency rather than having a percentage of them out of commission or on lighter work details for a few months due to being infected with a parasite which can just as easily be grown in a machine. Additionally, as you have mentioned in all of the abortion threads, pregnancy carries certain health risks for the mother and trained adults are the one resource which can't easily be replaced by a machine shop, so adding this risk increases the chances of mission failure. The only risk from having a bunch of men is that people die unecessarily by falling off cliffs and stuff while exploring the new territory because they refused to look at a map.

If a mother dies because of complications from a pregnancy, you're out a colonist. If a birthing machine breaks because of complications in a pregnancy, you just mine a few resources, feed them into a 3D printer and you have another one up and running in no time for new DNA to be loaded into. That also applies to why you don't need to carry all the needed artificial wombs with you on the ship and can manufacture them as needed when you arrive.

 

[Toni]

Yes, but I was being realistic. Long term storage of sperm is already possible and much easier, cheaper and more reliably produces usable gametes vs storage of ova much less the creation and utilization of artificial wombs which are not yet available and would take much more space than sperm storage. Sperm would provide all that was necessary with relative ease of storage and utilization and as you pointed out(I had not thought it necessary), provide X and Y chromosomes so that make and female children could be created as desired. It’s much more cost and space effective.

Parthenogenesis is entirely different and much more speculative than an all female crew plus sperm for space colonization.

You could also just store eggs and keep all of your colonists working at peak efficiency rather than having a percentage of them out of commission or on lighter work details for a few months due to being infected with a parasite which can just as easily be grown in a machine. Additionally, as you have mentioned in all of the abortion threads, pregnancy carries certain health risks for the mother and trained adults are the one resource which can't easily be replaced by a machine shop, so adding this risk increases the chances of mission failure. The only risk from having a bunch of men is that people die unecessarily by falling off cliffs and stuff while exploring the new territory because they refused to look at a map.

If a mother dies because of complications from a pregnancy, you're out a colonist. If a birthing machine breaks because of complications in a pregnancy, you just mine a few resources, feed them into a 3D printer and you have another one up and running in no time for new DNA to be loaded into. That also applies to why you don't need to carry all the needed artificial wombs with you on the ship and can manufacture them as needed when you arrive.

Get back with me when they create an actual artificial womb. And don't forget the nutrients required to grow a fertilized egg into an embryo into a fetus into a human. Plus, men are notoriously less than enthusiastic about midnight feedings and diaper changes. Or teething. Your scenario is likely to waste a lot of ova, which are not easy to harvest or store. So far, ova are absolutely necessary to even start a blastula, much less an embryo.

An all female crew would doubtless be more sensitive to the needs of the gestating woman than the average male crew, thereby increasing her chances for survival. Men are more likely to kill one another....because why? I don't understand it but: statistics. Plus, if an artificial womb crashed, you'd be out an ova, which is, as I've pointed out, scarcer and more difficult to harvest and maintain than sperm. The male crew could produce sperm to spec, so to speak, or at least in quantity. Good luck getting more ovum.

I will admit I half expected you to say that with an all female crew, you'd have to worry about women being on their periods and losing productivity that way. And then I'd have to bring up how much time men spend whacking off and having fart contests and we'd get nowhere quick.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Get back with me when they create an actual artificial womb.

We're talking about people on a frigging colony ship to another planet. Technology that's a few decades or centuries out wouldn't be a problem.

And don't forget the nutrients required to grow a fertilized egg into an embryo into a fetus into a human. Plus, men are notoriously less than enthusiastic about midnight feedings and diaper changes. Or teething. Your scenario is likely to waste a lot of ova, which are not easy to harvest or store. So far, ova are absolutely necessary to even start a blastula, much less an embryo.

Infants can be fed and changed by robots. The colonists themselves can all get a good night's sleep so there's less exhaustion and consequently have fewer potentially fatal accidents while working in a hostile alien environment where paying attention is key. Your plan trades adult lives in order to save the lives of fetuses - is this a planet of Republicans or something?

An all female crew would doubtless be more sensitive to the needs of the gestating woman than the average male crew, thereby increasing her chances for survival. Men are more likely to kill one another....because why? I don't understand it but: statistics. Plus, if an artificial womb crashed, you'd be out an ova, which is, as I've pointed out, scarcer and more difficult to harvest and maintain than sperm. The male crew could produce sperm to spec, so to speak, or at least in quantity. Good luck getting more ovum.

You can grow a cloned ova in the same lab where they made the guy a new arm because he stuck his hand into an alien plant just to see what would happen. It's simple 23rd century science which every one of the colonists would have been able to do in kindergarten and not a legitimate concern.

I will admit I half expected you to say that with an all female crew, you'd have to worry about women being on their periods and losing productivity that way. And then I'd have to bring up how much time men spend whacking off and having fart contests and we'd get nowhere quick.

Fart contests add nitrogen to the atmosphere and assist the terraforming efforts, thank you very much.

 

[Toni]

We're talking about people on a frigging colony ship to another planet. Technology that's a few decades or centuries out wouldn't be a problem.



Infants can be fed and changed by robots. The colonists themselves can all get a good night's sleep so there's less exhaustion and consequently have fewer potentially fatal accidents while working in a hostile alien environment where paying attention is key. Your plan trades adult lives in order to save the lives of fetuses - is this a planet of Republicans or something?

An all female crew would doubtless be more sensitive to the needs of the gestating woman than the average male crew, thereby increasing her chances for survival. Men are more likely to kill one another....because why? I don't understand it but: statistics. Plus, if an artificial womb crashed, you'd be out an ova, which is, as I've pointed out, scarcer and more difficult to harvest and maintain than sperm. The male crew could produce sperm to spec, so to speak, or at least in quantity. Good luck getting more ovum.

You can grow a cloned ova in the same lab where they made the guy a new arm because he stuck his hand into an alien plant just to see what would happen. It's simple 23rd century science which every one of the colonists would have been able to do in kindergarten and not a legitimate concern.

I will admit I half expected you to say that with an all female crew, you'd have to worry about women being on their periods and losing productivity that way. And then I'd have to bring up how much time men spend whacking off and having fart contests and we'd get nowhere quick.

Fart contests add nitrogen to the atmosphere and assist the terraforming efforts, thank you very much.

Actually, kids, especially infants, require human touch and human contact in order to develop into proper and properly functioning human beings. There have been studies....


You can't grow a cloned ova without ova.

Fart contests contribute to greenhouse gasses and are probably the reason we will need to colonize another planet.

 

[TSwizzle]

I will admit I half expected you to say that with an all female crew, you'd have to worry about women being on their periods and losing productivity that way.

Since we all know women can't read a map, they would get lost about 10 minutes after take off. That would be my real worry.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Actually, kids, especially infants, require human touch and human contact in order to develop into proper and properly functioning human beings. There have been studies....

The robots look and act human. Does it seriously need to be explicitly stated that when a group of guys lands on a planet with some 3D printers, the first thing they'd do is manufacture up a whole bunch of sex bots? I felt that was obvious enough that it went without saying. The kids wouldn't know the difference and the processing power is enough that all the machines would be world class pediatricians and child therapists. Your plan has a bunch of engineers trying to raise children in their spare time.

You can't grow a cloned ova without ova.

Every single ova on the planet today grew from stem cells. I don't see why new ones would be more complex than hearts, lungs or the pit bulls grown for the dog fighting matches.

 

[Toni]

Actually, kids, especially infants, require human touch and human contact in order to develop into proper and properly functioning human beings. There have been studies....

The robots look and act human. Does it seriously need to be explicitly stated that when a group of guys lands on a planet with some 3D printers, the first thing they'd do is manufacture up a whole bunch of sex bots? I felt that was obvious enough that it went without saying. The kids wouldn't know the difference and the processing power is enough that all the machines would be world class pediatricians and child therapists. Your plan has a bunch of engineers trying to raise children in their spare time.

You can't grow a cloned ova without ova.

Every single ova on the planet today grew from stem cells. I don't see why new ones would be more complex than hearts, lungs or the pit bulls grown for the dog fighting matches.

Women are more efficient. We'd only need a few engineers. None of us would be out with pulled groin injuries, either. Also, dildoes are much easier to manufacture and again: consume less time and materials and energy resources.

How did men ever manage to be in charge of anything????

 

[Tom Sawyer]

How did men ever manage to be in charge of anything????

Women nagged us until we got our lazy asses up off of the couch and built an oppressive patriarchal society like we'd promised to months ago. That can be programmed into the sex bots.

 

[Toni]

How did men ever manage to be in charge of anything????

Women nagged us until we got our lazy asses up off of the couch and built an oppressive patriarchal society like we'd promised to months ago. That can be programmed into the sex bots.

Yeah, you messed that up, too because you didn't listen: It was supposed to be MATRIARCHAL not PATRIARCHAL. M not P.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

How did men ever manage to be in charge of anything????

Women nagged us until we got our lazy asses up off of the couch and built an oppressive patriarchal society like we'd promised to months ago. That can be programmed into the sex bots.

Yeah, you messed that up, too because you didn't listen: It was supposed to be MATRIARCHAL not PATRIARCHAL. M not P.

I'll be honest - we weren't actually paying attention to whatever it was you were saying and we just nodded politely until you left us alone. Also, we were probably drunk. It's kind of amazing we even got as close as we did, so good job by us.

 

[Toni]

Yeah, you messed that up, too because you didn't listen: It was supposed to be MATRIARCHAL not PATRIARCHAL. M not P.

I'll be honest - we weren't actually paying attention to whatever it was you were saying and we just nodded politely until you left us alone. Also, we were probably drunk. It's kind of amazing we even got as close as we did, so good job by us.

It is impossible to argue with any of that...

 

[ruby sparks]

How nice of you to allow me to have an opinion!

I simply said that something was a matter of opinion. It's the sort of thing I'd say to anyone when something is in fact a matter of opinion. That you read it the way you did is, quick frankly, just weird, and pretty much encapsulates why I can't be bothered to engage with you much, because sooner or later, mostly sooner, you skew what I say.

 

[Toni]

How nice of you to allow me to have an opinion!

I simply said that something was a matter of opinion. It's the sort of thing I'd say to anyone when something is in fact a matter of opinion. That you read it the way you did is, quick frankly, just weird, and pretty much encapsulates why I can't be bothered to engage with you much, because sooner or later, mostly sooner, you skew what I say.

The nature of this forum is that people discuss, share ideas and viewpoints, and sometimes argue with each other. Nobody always agrees with anybody else. Nobody is 100% consistent in every discussion. We may or may not read other people’s posts with care and respect every single time.

I get the impression that you want everybody to like you all of the time—or at least the men. I get the impression you think the women should simply accept your viewpoint as the last word and like it.

My take: you may be raising daughters and you may be a great dad. You are not a great expert on how women think. That’s ok. I’m not a great expert on how men think despite my decades of marriage and having raised sons.

Sometimes we will agree. Sometimes we won’t. Deal with it. Or don’t.

 

[ruby sparks]

But, apart from the fact that you're pretty much doing it again (reading my mind, wrong, while, ironically, telling me I'm supposedly, you think, reading minds, wrong) how on earth did you, actually, seriously, think what I said had anything, anything at all, to do with 'allowing you to have an opinion'?

 

[Toni]

But, apart from the fact that you're pretty much doing it again (reading my mind, wrong, while, ironically, telling me I'm supposedly, you think, reading minds, wrong) how on earth did you, actually, seriously, think what I said had anything, anything at all, to do with 'allowing you to have an opinion'?

Here's the part of your post that started this particular tiff. I bolded the part that I responded to in a way that you find so offensive:

You:

That's a matter of opinion. Some would say it was very fast. Humans have been doin' their thing for hundreds of thousands of years and more, and the roots of behaviour go way back before that, possibly millions of years. How long have modern views on gender been taken seriously on a wide scale? I have no problem if you disagree and think progress too slow.

Now, we live on opposite sides of the pond. I will be frank and say that I know zero Irishmen in real life. Irish Americans? Sure but I know that's not the same thing. I'm an American woman who was raised by a man who taught me to think for myself and who was extremely forthright in stating his views. I'm told I take after him a lot.

So, I think that perhaps you maybe need to consider that there might be some slight cultural differences and perhaps more differences of personality at work here.

That said: this thread has been full of men (not all of you but quite a few) who have gone on for page after page after page, telling women why we think/do what we do and guess what? It's all about trying to get you to have sex with us!

Did I react sharply to the bolded part? I don't think so but you may see it differently. I was being a little arch, a little playful. I'd spent a lot of threads reading about how men were sure we know better than we do about why we dress the way we do. So yes, I was handing it back to you a bit. So what?

You took my words differently. In part, there is no physical/visual cues to help discern tone or implicit meaning.

There is no part where I am claiming to read your mind. Zero. I state my perceptions of what you might be meaning. That's not the same thing.

I'm sorry that you don't understand my humor or my point of view. But again: I'm not the person or gender in this thread who is trying to tell others why they think what they do or think.

In the US, we might say something like: it looks like you have a chip on your shoulder. From my perspective, I think you do have. I could be wrong, but that's how it seems to me.

 

[ruby sparks]

In the US, we might say something like: it looks like you have a chip on your shoulder. From my perspective, I think you do have. I could be wrong, but that's how it seems to me.

That tells me what's going on in your head at least. Not that it wasn't obvious. What's up next, asking me when I stopped beating my wife?

Toni, quite honestly, you're very annoying, the presumptions you make.

 

[Toni]

In the US, we might say something like: it looks like you have a chip on your shoulder. From my perspective, I think you do have. I could be wrong, but that's how it seems to me.

That tells me what's going on in your head at least. Not that it wasn't obvious. What's up next, asking me when I stopped beating my wife?

Toni, quite honestly, you're very annoying, the presumptions you make.

That's quite rich, given the posts you've made in this thread.