Lumpenproletariat
Veteran Member
- Joined
- May 9, 2014
- Messages
- 2,701
- Basic Beliefs
- ---- "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
You can't write your own Constitution
or your own 1st Amendment.
And no, that exclusion -- excluding groups -- generally never was the actual case and obviously is not the actual case now, since the Court has ruled specifically now that corporations and labor unions (groups) do have 1st Amendment rights to free speech and free press, etc. And there is no previous Supreme Court ruling which said otherwise. There were at least 2 cases in the 1970s which also said the same as the Court did in Citizens United (2010). And no previous Supreme Court cases ever ruled to the contrary, saying groups could be "prohibited" from producing political propaganda (or "electioneering communications" etc.). You cannot name any such case. The word "prohibit" appeared in the FEC ruling in 2008, which is the first time ever that a federal agency announced "prohibition" of political speech or of political propaganda based on federal law. The earlier Courts only ruled that campaign contributions to political candidates were limited, or "political spending," which is still the case and was not changed by the 2010 decision, though "political spending" is ambiguous. But "prohibition" of political speech or "prohibited" speech was never upheld in any earlier Court ruling.
You are wrong to insinuate that groups were ever prohibited (by federal law) from publishing political propaganda, which the FEC did to Citizens United in 2008. Rather, there were cases which specifically said this violated the 1st Amendment rights of corporations (i.e., groups).
("Groups" are not the same as "corporations" -- but the intended meaning is that ALL groups are protected by the 1st Amendment, and in these cases the "groups" threatened happened to be corporations, so that the wording always was "corporations" rather than "groups" (meaning in this case that specifically corporations and labor unions cannot be singled out as having less 1st Amendment rights than other groups) -- and the wording "groups" could have been used and would have been essentially the same, in the meaning, or in terms of the practical outcome or enforcement.) The word "groups" should be used, to get it precisely correct.
Everyone else has assumed that it's only corporations in particular which are "not people" while other groups are people and do have 1st Amendment rights. I.e., it's assumed (so far by everyone else) that there's a difference between CORPORATIONS vs. GROUPS of people (i.e., groups in general) -- such that the latter are still "people" with 1st Amendment rights, whereas corporations (as an exception = special category) are "not people" and do not have 1st Amendment rights. Meaning there is some basic difference between corporations and groups, such that "corporations are not people" but other groups are still people even though they're GROUPS of people.
So the "not people" dogmatists need to get their story straight, and take a moment to think instead of just repeating their chant over and over again like religious cult disciples who drank the Kool-Aid -- and for once question their dog-whistle slogan "corporations are not people," trying to ask what it really means instead of just being driven by their impulse like the Pavlovian dog which knows nothing other than to salivate when it hears the bell ring.
To say that ALL GROUPS are not people is a small step toward rehabilitation, toward thoughtfulness and away from your dog whistle. But it's still mistaken because the enforced law in practice (except in 2002-2008) always was that groups also are "people" and do have 1st Amendment rights, with this being upheld once again in 2010. Pretending that earlier Courts said otherwise is a falsehood.
There was never any PROHIBITION of political speech or denial of 1st Amendment free speech rights by the federal gov't until 2008 (or 2002 with the campaign reform act).
or your own 1st Amendment.
Yes they should have basic 1st Amendment rights, just as the Supreme Court ruled in the Citizens United case. They should have these basic rights, because these rights are guaranteed to "the people" as the Amendment says in its wording "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to . . ." etc. It's because of these words that corporations (and all groups of people) do have 1st Amendment rights. Nothing in the wording suggests that "the people" means only individuals separately rather than groups of people, or only individuals to the exclusion of groups of people. The word "individual" or "individuals" does not appear in the 1st Amendment. Nor is there anything in the CONTEXT of the 1st Amendment which suggests that it applies only to individuals to the exclusion of groups of people.. . . corporations (or other groups) should not have the same rights as individual people, and . . .
The phrase "individual people" does not appear in the 1st Amendment. If you want to amend the Constitution to have it say "individual people" you can start a crusade to change the wording.. . . not have the same rights as individual people, and generally that is the actual case.
And no, that exclusion -- excluding groups -- generally never was the actual case and obviously is not the actual case now, since the Court has ruled specifically now that corporations and labor unions (groups) do have 1st Amendment rights to free speech and free press, etc. And there is no previous Supreme Court ruling which said otherwise. There were at least 2 cases in the 1970s which also said the same as the Court did in Citizens United (2010). And no previous Supreme Court cases ever ruled to the contrary, saying groups could be "prohibited" from producing political propaganda (or "electioneering communications" etc.). You cannot name any such case. The word "prohibit" appeared in the FEC ruling in 2008, which is the first time ever that a federal agency announced "prohibition" of political speech or of political propaganda based on federal law. The earlier Courts only ruled that campaign contributions to political candidates were limited, or "political spending," which is still the case and was not changed by the 2010 decision, though "political spending" is ambiguous. But "prohibition" of political speech or "prohibited" speech was never upheld in any earlier Court ruling.
You are wrong to insinuate that groups were ever prohibited (by federal law) from publishing political propaganda, which the FEC did to Citizens United in 2008. Rather, there were cases which specifically said this violated the 1st Amendment rights of corporations (i.e., groups).
("Groups" are not the same as "corporations" -- but the intended meaning is that ALL groups are protected by the 1st Amendment, and in these cases the "groups" threatened happened to be corporations, so that the wording always was "corporations" rather than "groups" (meaning in this case that specifically corporations and labor unions cannot be singled out as having less 1st Amendment rights than other groups) -- and the wording "groups" could have been used and would have been essentially the same, in the meaning, or in terms of the practical outcome or enforcement.) The word "groups" should be used, to get it precisely correct.
Not only is that NOT the actual case, but so far no one else here has said that all groups are not people and have no basic 1st Amendment rights.. . . not have the same rights as individual people, and generally that is the actual case.
Everyone else has assumed that it's only corporations in particular which are "not people" while other groups are people and do have 1st Amendment rights. I.e., it's assumed (so far by everyone else) that there's a difference between CORPORATIONS vs. GROUPS of people (i.e., groups in general) -- such that the latter are still "people" with 1st Amendment rights, whereas corporations (as an exception = special category) are "not people" and do not have 1st Amendment rights. Meaning there is some basic difference between corporations and groups, such that "corporations are not people" but other groups are still people even though they're GROUPS of people.
So the "not people" dogmatists need to get their story straight, and take a moment to think instead of just repeating their chant over and over again like religious cult disciples who drank the Kool-Aid -- and for once question their dog-whistle slogan "corporations are not people," trying to ask what it really means instead of just being driven by their impulse like the Pavlovian dog which knows nothing other than to salivate when it hears the bell ring.
To say that ALL GROUPS are not people is a small step toward rehabilitation, toward thoughtfulness and away from your dog whistle. But it's still mistaken because the enforced law in practice (except in 2002-2008) always was that groups also are "people" and do have 1st Amendment rights, with this being upheld once again in 2010. Pretending that earlier Courts said otherwise is a falsehood.
There was never any PROHIBITION of political speech or denial of 1st Amendment free speech rights by the federal gov't until 2008 (or 2002 with the campaign reform act).
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