Covid-19 miscellany

[jab]

South East Queensland comes out of lockdown this afternoon, as the Chief Health Officer (the fantastic Dr Jeanette Young) is confident that there are now zero Covid patients not identified and quarantined.

Sadly, a taxi driver in Cairns (1,700km north of Brisbane) has tested positive, and so that city has now gone into lockdown for at least three days.

We have demonstrated that a fast, strict lockdown, combined with mass testing and detailed contact tracing, can stop an outbreak of Covid Delta in just eight days, even in a densely populated urban centre (Brisbane has a population of about 2.5 million).

The first case was positively identified on Thursday, the 29th of July, and lockdown started on Saturday 31st at 4pm. It will finish at 4pm today, Sunday, the 8th of August. Total cases in the cluster to date are just over 100, and likely to rise by a few per day over the next few days amongst the quarantined families of known cases.

Of course, if any new cases pop up, we may need to repeat the exercise. Perhaps several times.

Masks are to remain mandatory, so that any new outbreaks are limited in size before they are detected.

Meanwhile NSW continues to demonstrate that a slow, soft lockdown is utterly inadequate in the face of the Delta strain. "Gold standard" Gladys Binchicken's attempts to protect the economy is a total disaster, and has not only failed to protect citizens' lives and health, but has also failed to protect the economy either. A result she could have predicted from overseas experience, or by listening to her scientific advisors and placing their opinions above those of ignorant politicians and political supporters. Today alone, over 300 new cases were reported in NSW, with an unknown number (reports vary from 'at least fifty' to 175) having been infectious in the community.

The borders between NSW and other states remain closed, with exemptions only for essential workers who can show a recent negative test, and who have not visited a declared 'hot spot' in the last 14 days.

A woman who escaped from quarantine on the Gold Coast by forcing open a screen door and climbing between balconies has been located, arrested, and charged with a number of offences. She will remain in police custody until the completion of her quarantine order, and will then face court on those charges which include two counts of failure to meet bail conditions in regard to prior convictions, and three charges relating to her escape from quarantine. She is understood to have tested negative for Covid at this time.

What's happening with vaccinations in Australia?

 

[jab]

You're not alone doc, just come across news that the Italian vaccinated were burning their vax passports in solidarity with the unvaccinated.. reason being, going against division between people etc.

source, please?

 

[jab]

We've discussed this before. I think you're a fucking fascist. Sorry to be blunt. But there it is. Your idea of liberalism isn't liberalism at all IMHO.

That's fine, name calling and all is perfectly acceptable derail maneuver. However, that doesn't actually address the subject at all. IE, where does one draw the line of liberty and freedom? Is it legitimate to allow one person to commit actions that needlessly harm others? Does a person's right extend beyond the coffin of another?

You can call me a fascist if you want again, but that won't address the viable limits of freedom in a civil society, especially where the viable limits are respective to those that trespass on the liberties (or even lives) of others.

Dr. Z doesn't, I presume, believe in speed limit laws.

 

[TomC]

In Louisiana, nearly 3500 children have been diagnosed with COVID19 in a 4 day span.

“Diagnosed”, lol. Tested positive maybe.

... explain this post. ...

I can.
Part of the problem with C19 is vague terms.

"Children" wasn't even defined. Diagnosed wasn't defined. The "4 day span" wasn't described.

3500 people, under age 18, could test positive without noticeable symptoms, and be reported as "3500 children diagnosed with Covid19", and it would be sorta true. True enough for media work.

I'm not claiming to know what actually happened, just pointing out the problems with modern media reporting on complex hot-button issues.
Tom

 

[Keith&Co.]

Dr. Z doesn't, I presume, believe in speed limit laws.

Dr. Z-s liberalism seems more consistent with American conservatives. I do what i want, infinite freedoms, with no responsibilities to society, and no consequences.

 

[TomC]

Dr. Z doesn't, I presume, believe in speed limit laws.

Dr. Z-s liberalism seems more consistent with American conservatives. I do what i want, infinite freedoms, with no responsibilities to society, and no consequences.

You must not read his posts.
At least not with much reading comprehension.
Tom

 

[Patooka]

What's happening with vaccinations in Australia?

The short version is that is a logistical mess. Acquiring vaccination doses is a Federal government responsibility and our current government prefers to spout platitudes rather than make decisions. As a result, there was a huge shortage of dosages available. Things are picking up now and supposedly, around 70% will be double jabbed by the end of October. There is some Qanon vaccine hesitancy bullshit but nowhere near the amount seen in the US and luckily it has remained a health issue and not a political one.

 

[jab]

So you don’t believe in most routine childhood vaccinations?

I find your clutching at straws to build your strawman irritating.
I said no such thing and you know it.
Tom

Your response,

Very much this. I do see young people as different from adults. Artificially tweaking their developing bodies isn't the same as doing so to a fully developed adult. They have so much life ahead of them. Using extra care before giving them such a shot makes very good sense to me. We have decades of experience with other immunizations, like polio and rubella and tetanus and such. That's just not true of this one. I'm fine with CDC recommendations on the subject.

however, left that inference open. That is, your sloppy thought provided the straw.

 

[jab]

I agree with the sentiment. I also don't think anybody should be forced to get vaccinated. I'm extremly pro-vaccines. I'm just against forcing it on anyone. Liberalism is about fighting for freedom. The moment liberals stop fighting for freedom they've stopped being liberals IMHO

NO ONE is being FORCED to get the vaccine. Mandating vaccines as a condition of employment is not forcing ANYONE to get the vaccine. They can always choose to work elsewhere, remember?

Economic pressure is a kind of force that can be very serious.

 

[jab]

We've discussed this before. I think you're a fucking fascist. Sorry to be blunt. But there it is. Your idea of liberalism isn't liberalism at all IMHO.

Your stance isn't very 'liberal' either.

But the point of liberalism is NOT that there should be no consequences to freely chosen actions.
If you're free to join NAMBLA, you're not necessarily free to have a job as a teacher in elementary school, where children are or might be threatened by your presence.
If you're free to reject a vaccine, you're not necessarily free to have a job in a school or meat packing facility, where people are or might be threatened by your presence.
If you're free to do intoxicants, you're not necessarily free to drive a city bus, where passengers, motorists, pedestrians, buildings are threatened by your impaired judgement.

The anti-vaxxers i have met are demanding that they can choose not to get a shot AND that they suffer no inconveniences for this self-inflicted vulnerability o being a plague rat. Shopping, dining, work, school, visiting the elderly, international travel, all while breathing with gay abandon. Why would the rest of us tolerate this threat to the herd?

er, shouldn't that be "breathing with plague-welcoming abandon"?

 

[jab]

How many was the few in your estimation? The claim as you put it, was quite simply, my agreed perspective to what Doc Zoidberg highlighted. People being forced. You see my mentioning of the Italian division and implication (you didn't get), implies that the unvaccinated will be forced i.e., "no jab no job" etc..

Additionally, causing division? What happened to personal responsibility? It is a Tenet of so many people, except when it comes to spreading a disease that has killed millions. Then it isn't personal responsibility, it becomes a loss of freedom and causing division.

Yes, to the underlined. Well for example: have you ever seen or heard those irresponsible promotional ads ... "snitches get riches?" It's that type of language that causes mistrust with one's own family and neihbours.

and feckless bitchers get infections

 

[bilby]

South East Queensland comes out of lockdown this afternoon, as the Chief Health Officer (the fantastic Dr Jeanette Young) is confident that there are now zero Covid patients not identified and quarantined.

Sadly, a taxi driver in Cairns (1,700km north of Brisbane) has tested positive, and so that city has now gone into lockdown for at least three days.

We have demonstrated that a fast, strict lockdown, combined with mass testing and detailed contact tracing, can stop an outbreak of Covid Delta in just eight days, even in a densely populated urban centre (Brisbane has a population of about 2.5 million).

The first case was positively identified on Thursday, the 29th of July, and lockdown started on Saturday 31st at 4pm. It will finish at 4pm today, Sunday, the 8th of August. Total cases in the cluster to date are just over 100, and likely to rise by a few per day over the next few days amongst the quarantined families of known cases.

Of course, if any new cases pop up, we may need to repeat the exercise. Perhaps several times.

Masks are to remain mandatory, so that any new outbreaks are limited in size before they are detected.

Meanwhile NSW continues to demonstrate that a slow, soft lockdown is utterly inadequate in the face of the Delta strain. "Gold standard" Gladys Binchicken's attempts to protect the economy is a total disaster, and has not only failed to protect citizens' lives and health, but has also failed to protect the economy either. A result she could have predicted from overseas experience, or by listening to her scientific advisors and placing their opinions above those of ignorant politicians and political supporters. Today alone, over 300 new cases were reported in NSW, with an unknown number (reports vary from 'at least fifty' to 175) having been infectious in the community.

The borders between NSW and other states remain closed, with exemptions only for essential workers who can show a recent negative test, and who have not visited a declared 'hot spot' in the last 14 days.

A woman who escaped from quarantine on the Gold Coast by forcing open a screen door and climbing between balconies has been located, arrested, and charged with a number of offences. She will remain in police custody until the completion of her quarantine order, and will then face court on those charges which include two counts of failure to meet bail conditions in regard to prior convictions, and three charges relating to her escape from quarantine. She is understood to have tested negative for Covid at this time.

What's happening with vaccinations in Australia?

It's not a race.

And we are dead last. But we have, finally, started to jog.

The Prime Minister of New South Wales, Scott Moronson, has gone from useless to mostly useless, so we are slowly seeing vaccination rates climb.

The NSW premier, Gladbags Binchicken, is hell bent on spreading disease as widely as possible, once 57% of her state's population (or as she prefers to say, 70% of the population over the age of 16) are fully vaccinated.

As the implied non-vector proportion of the population for herd immunity from Delta (at R₀ of up to 8) is 87.5%, and as vaccinated people are not completely removed from the vector population, that 57% threshold is dangerously low, but she's too dim to comprehend this.

Meanwhile, the Premiers of the non-batshit states are determined not to open up their borders at 57%, as they have a bizarre belief that killing people unnecessarily isn't a worthwhile price to pay for allowing Mr Moronson to fly to Hawaii for this year's bushfire season.

 

[jab]

Yes, it does. We're all better off if the government isn't allowed to force normal people to do anything. If the government limits anyone's freedom it should only be to prevent outliers from doing extreme things. The moment we get a situation where we need to force a significant proportion of the population to do something, they really don't want to do, "for their own good" we're heading into dangerous territory.

I don't like that 20-30% of the population are anti-vaxxers. But they have basic human rights just like anyone. There's enough of them that I think we need to take their beliefs seriously.

How about trying to take their perspective? They think you're gambling with their health and risking their death, for questionable reasons. They accuse people like you (and me) for taking unnecessary risks.

Just calling them idiots and deciding that their opinions don't matter, so we can go ahead and treat them like children, is being a fascist.

If you're unable to convince them that you're right, perhaps work on your arguments instead of bullying them into submission.

Right now in Denmark you need to have been vaccinated to live a normal life. If you want to go to a restaurant you need to show a Corona pass. If you want to travel. If you want to go to a gym. If you want to go dancing. Corona pass. You can go and get tested each time. But that is a pain in the ass. We're bullying people into obedience. I have a problem with that.

Germany is going one step further. Next month, they will have the same rules, only that people will have to pay for each Corona test themselves. I really dislike it. I think it's fascism.

I think that it's closer to 20%. Regardless. I think that option is simple. 1) Follow the science; the unvaccinated isolate and/or wear your mask; economy goes back to normal; fewer people die; we go back to normal; Oregon Ducks win the NCAA football championship; or 2) Don't follow the science; allow the 20% to dictate; many thousands of more people die; survivors develop life long heart and lung problems; we all go back to isolation; the economy is ruined; but the 20% won't have their feelings hurt. I prefer option 1.

Some of teh 20% will ha e their feelings hurt, and are presently having their feelings hurt, when they get very very sick.

 

[bilby]

What's happening with vaccinations in Australia?

The short version is that is a logistical mess. Acquiring vaccination doses is a Federal government responsibility and our current government prefers to spout platitudes rather than make decisions. As a result, there was a huge shortage of dosages available. Things are picking up now and supposedly, around 70% will be double jabbed by the end of October. There is some Qanon vaccine hesitancy bullshit but nowhere near the amount seen in the US and luckily it has remained a health issue and not a political one.

70% of over 16s.

That's actually 57% of the population.

I find acceptance of that number as a suitable place to relax restrictions fucking horrifying.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Being a dictator is being an asshole.

Not letting deluded dangerous children harm others is not being a dictator.

Stopping your child from walking into traffic is not being a dictator.

So if the dictator makes decrees you agree with he's not a dictator. That's another part of your pro-government totalitarian anarchism.

So the man who stops his child from walking into traffic is a dictator?

False analogy is false.

 

[jab]

Aha... so the people who aren't fascists are guilty of the holocaust of WW2. Got it

You can't sit back and allow people to kill millions of other people because of libertarianism. That isn't what libertarianism is supposed to be about. My freedom to wave my arms around ends when my arms are in your face affecting your movement or worse hitting you. My freedom to be a Nazi ends well before I am running around killing Jews. The same with wearing masks or vaccinating. My freedom to not wear a mask or be vaccinated ends when I am spreading infections to the populace, killing people. If you see some idiot waving their arms in someone else's face to hit them, tell them to stop. If you see a Nazi about to kill a Jew, defend the Jew. You might have to kill some Nazis to do it. If you have a population of idiots not vaccinating or wearing masks such that there are covid surges with people dying excessively, you make some policies or allow businesses to make rules requiring masks and vaccinations. This isn't rocket science.

It's insane calling my position libertarian. You're so off the rails now.

It seems libertarian to me, too. Opening lines of Wikipedia in libertarianism: " political philosophy and movement that upholds liberty as a core principle. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and political freedom, emphasizing free association, freedom of choice, individualism and voluntary association. Libertarians share a skepticism of authority and state power". You yourself don't seem insane in this squib of a post, just pugnacious and uninformed.

 

[jab]

where are there flu vaccine mandates?

At various hospitals, for employees. Since covid is worse risk than flu, it makes sense covid vaccine mandates would be bigger in scope.

Also public have had vaccine requirements since what, the 50s?

I grew up in the military. I had to get vaccines for things most people have probably never heard of. And they kept track of the mundane things like tetanus and stuff so we were always up to date.

But muh freedoms. Your freedom to risk other people can get fucked.

I'm against nanny state laws that protect idiots from themselves, but there's this thing called 'general welfare'. If your actions (such as dunk driving) cause a danger to others, that is exactly what the government is for you fucking selfish pig headed idiots!

One needs vax documents for various diseases in order to engage in travel to various countries. This is a form of vaccination mandate.

 

[TomC]

Your response,

Very much this. I do see young people as different from adults. Artificially tweaking their developing bodies isn't the same as doing so to a fully developed adult. They have so much life ahead of them. Using extra care before giving them such a shot makes very good sense to me. We have decades of experience with other immunizations, like polio and rubella and tetanus and such. That's just not true of this one. I'm fine with CDC recommendations on the subject.

however, left that inference open. That is, your sloppy thought provided the straw.

Nah.
Your lack of reading comprehension and sloppy thinking led you to post a demonstrably false strawman.
Tom

 

[jab]

Alright can we grunts in the system get off each others throats for a minute and look at how these vaccine studies were conducted?

You know, get back to basics of looking askance at multinational corporations like you used to do ten years ago.

For once in history big pharma shared data and cooperated for the good of humanity. In spite of what they might have done historicaly they truly are heroes this time around IMHO. It might also have something to do with that it was raining money on all of them and they had less reason to compete. But anyway

Big Pharma, however, did not loosen copyright controls, and are reaping lots a dough from the vaccines.

 

[jab]

And smokers, who aren’t a fringe minority either, should have the freedom to smoke wherever they want. If they want to put themselves at risk of lung cancer that’s their own choice. And if you want to avoid smelling like smoke or getting negative health consequences from second hand smoke you can just stay at home. Why should they suffer under the tyranny of non-smokers?

I also think that the bullying of smokers in Europe has gone to far. I'm not a smoker and I have never been. I think it's a disgrace how we are treating smokers. It's not like the people who never smoke will live forever. The way we treat them today is absurd. In Sweden now smokers aren't even allowed to smoke in restaurants outdoors. That's too far IMHO

It's not like people who don't smoke will live longer if they aren't exposed to second-hand smoke.
--- Oh, wait, they will, and their lungs will have a better chance of fighting Covid should they get infected.