Covid-19 miscellany

[TSwizzle]

In the UK, doctors and health services call to delay mandatory vaccination and thousands take to the streets to protest;

The deadline for health workers to have a Covid vaccination should be delayed to prevent staff shortages in England, the Royal College of GPs has said. NHS workers who oppose the government's mandatory vaccination policy have staged a protest in central London. Demonstrations were also held in other cities across England including Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds.

BBC

Prime minister Johnson is really up against it these days.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Can you explain to me why vaccine mandates for COVID 19 are bad?

Even when I agree something is a good idea, I don't approve of mandating it. Just as an example, I wear a helmet when I ride my motorcycle, yet I oppose helmet laws.

Saying something should be mandated is a whole second step above and beyond saying it is a good idea. Each of those two arguments is a separate argument.

I understand that. But I don’t understand your argument for NOT mandating COVID vaccines. Can you please share it?

The default position on using force on another person is always "against." Once the first criteria is satisfied "it is a good thing in itself" then it is up to those who support mandates to make a separate second argument in favor of mandates. The argument should be a different argument from "this is why X is good", combining the two is fallacious and lazy.

It doesn't matter what the mandate is, the default position is against and it is the responsibility of those favoring mandates to make that second separate distinct argument. Saying "this thing is good" is not a sufficient argument for why it should be mandatory.

 

[TomC]

Saying "this thing is good" is not a sufficient argument for why it should be mandatory.

That's not the argument.

There's tons of evidence out there about why it's a good thing. Refusing to see that evidence doesn't mean it isn't there.
Tom

ETA ~Mandates aren't a good thing, except for the fact that so many irresponsible people keep the epidemic going. That's causing huge problems for the rest of us.
I'd rather we, as a society, didn't have to resort to such mandates. But we do.~

 

[repoman]

I wonder if NYC will keep the mandates that are keeping (yes it is his choice to not vax) Kyrie Irving from playing at home while unvaccinated for long after the peak has plummeted to very low levels because Kyrie was a dick about it. Can't let Kyrie "win" by dropping a mandate even if it makes sense otherwise. If power is shown to not be powerful then it is not a power to be respected.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The default position on using force on another person is always "against."

People consider deliberately giving someone HIV to be force. Since sneezing and coughing at people could be defined as force as well, maybe sneezing plague rats should all be charged with assaults and unvaxxed, unmasked plague rats with reckless endangerment. That's a bit of impractical reactive management, though, to solve the problem.

 

[blastula]

NYPD officers were heckled for arresting five organized anti-vax mandate protesters and detaining a nine year-old girl Wednesday after they barged into the Natural History Museum without showing proof of COVID vaccination. The arrests, which come amid soaring crime in the Big Apple, took place on Wednesday. Trouble began when a half-dozen purported members of the New York Freedom Rally - a group that has been staging anti-vax protests throughout the city - attempted to enter the Manhattan museum without showing their vaccine passports in violation of rules. Those require every visitor five years and older to show proof of vaccination. The nine year-old, named Jayla, was filmed sobbing as she was marched down the steps by two cops, with onlookers filmed heckling and abusing the NYPD officers over her apprehension.

Daily Mail

Defund the police !

That is horrible, that her mother had her participate in their death cult.

Here's another death cult mother harming her child much worse.

Czech folk singer dies after deliberately contracting Covid

Hana Horka wanted to prove recovery from Covid so she could obtain a health pass

www.theguardian.com

Hana Horka, 57, who was the vocalist for the band Asonance, died on Sunday, according to her son Jan Rek. She had voluntarily exposed herself to the virus when her husband and son, both vaccinated, caught it before Christmas, Rek told public radio iRozhlas.cz.
////
Rek blamed the death on a local anti-vax movement, saying its leaders had convinced his mother against vaccination and thus had “blood on their hands”.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Saying "this thing is good" is not a sufficient argument for why it should be mandatory.

That's not the argument.

There's tons of evidence out there about why it's a good thing. Refusing to see that evidence doesn't mean it isn't there.
Tom

Saying "it is good" is not the same as saying "this is why it should be mandatory." I'm not arguing the first, I'm not disagreeing with the first, I'm not saying the first is wrong.

I'm saying that the argument to support the second is not the same as the argument to support the first.

Some people want mandates. Their argument for the mandate is "this is good". That is a bad argument.

 

[TomC]

I wonder if NYC will keep the mandates that are keeping (yes it is his choice to not vax) Kyrie Irving from playing at home while unvaccinated for long after the peak has plummeted to very low levels because Kyrie was a dick about it. Can't let Kyrie "win" by dropping a mandate even if it makes sense otherwise. If power is shown to not be powerful then it is not a power to be respected.

Could you explain what you're talking about here? What mandate prevents him from playing at home?

I had no idea who you are talking about so I googled him. Here's an interesting bit from Wikipedia:
"Irving has shared and interacted with social media posts from a conspiracy theorist on Instagram, claiming that "secret societies are administering vaccines in a plot to connect Black people to a master computer for a plan of Satan".[185]"

Tom

 

[TomC]

Some people want mandates. Their argument for the mandate is "this is good". That is a bad argument.

No, that isn't the argument for mandates.
No more than "driving sober is good" is the argument for laws about impaired driving.
Tom

 

[repoman]

I wonder if NYC will keep the mandates that are keeping (yes it is his choice to not vax) Kyrie Irving from playing at home while unvaccinated for long after the peak has plummeted to very low levels because Kyrie was a dick about it. Can't let Kyrie "win" by dropping a mandate even if it makes sense otherwise. If power is shown to not be powerful then it is not a power to be respected.

Could you explain what you're talking about here? What mandate prevents him from playing at home?

I had no idea who you are talking about so I googled him. Here's an interesting bit from Wikipedia:
"Irving has shared and interacted with social media posts from a conspiracy theorist on Instagram, claiming that "secret societies are administering vaccines in a plot to connect Black people to a master computer for a plan of Satan".[185]"

Tom

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/counseltothemayor/downloads/Key-to-NYC-FAQ.pdf

12/20/2021
5
What about professional athletes who are appearing at an indoor area of a sports
stadium or arena and any individuals accompanying them as part of their regular
employment — do I need to verify proof of vaccination for them?
Yes, covered entities need to verify proof of vaccination for professional athletes, as well as
college athletes, and any individuals accompanying them as part of their regular employment
unless these individuals do not live in New York City and are entering the covered entity for the
purpose of participating in a professional or college athletic competition. New York City “home
team” players and staff must be vaccinated regardless of where they live

I think it is conceivable that people like Irving may cause an entrenching reaction by the politicians and bureaucrats and make the policy last longer.

If the sting of the policy is defanged "too soon" (judgment call) then people will think that the next time a similar policy is implemented that it will be a temporary, weak joke and the stick to get more people vaccinated will have much less effect.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Some people want mandates. Their argument for the mandate is "this is good". That is a bad argument.

No, that isn't the argument for mandates.
No more than "driving sober is good" is the argument for laws about impaired driving.
Tom

The argument "this is good" is a separate argument from "this should be mandatory."

Those who have been making the arguments for "this is mandatory" is "this is good, and enough people aren't doing good."

That is insufficient.

 

[Metaphor]

The three top epidemiological authorities in the U.S. are Anthony Fauci, Donald Trump and Alex Jones and, although all three have been vaccinated, two out of 3 do NOT support MANDATORY vaccinations.

Mandatory vaccinations are a political decision, not a medical decision.

Mandatory vaccinations are a political decision not a medical decision in the same sense that having standards for clean drinking water in any municipality is a political decision and not a medical one.

Well, yes, they are both political decisions, rightfully made by politicians who are elected by the community which the political decision will apply to.

Of course, different communities might want and need different standards for drinking water and raising or lowering those standards usually does not involve forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults.

 

[TomC]

Some people want mandates. Their argument for the mandate is "this is good". That is a bad argument.

No, that isn't the argument for mandates.
No more than "driving sober is good" is the argument for laws about impaired driving.
Tom

The argument "this is good" is a separate argument from "this should be mandatory."

Those who have been making the arguments for "this is mandatory" is "this is good, and enough people aren't doing good."

That is insufficient.

Nope.
That's not it. It's not "enough people aren't doing good".

It's "too many people are doing wrong". The wrong impacts all of us, even when we're doing the right thing. It's the same as alcohol impaired drivers. If they were only damaging themselves we wouldn't care about DUI so much. But they're not, they cause huge harm to people who are driving sober as well as themselves and other drunks.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I think the argument is that when you don't do it, a lot more people die and from a "force" perspective, the plague rats are forcing their diseases via breaths, coughs, and sneezes onto others and so that's an A or a B argument which I have underlined both A and B. Both A and B individually by themselves have similarities to government interventions. The first one (A) when you don't do it, a lot more people die is akin to not getting involved in WW2, i.e. more people would die by the US being non-interventionist. The latter point (B) the plague rats are forcing diseases via breaths, coughs, and sneezes onto others is similar to infecting someone with HIV being illegal, sneezing in someone's face being assault, blowing smoke in someone's face as assault, the primary differences with B being that (1) the victimizer forcing things onto the victim often doesn't know they are a plague rat but do behave irresponsibly and recklessly, like say, drunk driving--drunk driving is illegal because there is a probability you could end up seriously harming someone including killing them AND (2) that this is a societal, widespread affect because of a pandemic, not an individual act, multiple plague rats in a room filling it with diseases.

 

[TSwizzle]

Anti science left wing authoritarian goes full blown tyrant;

New Zealand will make household contacts of Covid cases isolate for 24 days under harsh new rules brought in to combat an impending Omicron outbreak. New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has brought in the strict measures as the country battles to stay Covid Zero despite the threat of the highly contagious mutant strain.

Daily Mail

 

[Metaphor]

Anti science left wing authoritarian goes full blown tyrant;

New Zealand will make household contacts of Covid cases isolate for 24 days under harsh new rules brought in to combat an impending Omicron outbreak. New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has brought in the strict measures as the country battles to stay Covid Zero despite the threat of the highly contagious mutant strain.

Daily Mail

Ardern cannot keep Omicron out of New Zealand.

"COVID Zero" is an impossible pipe dream that should have been abandoned by any sane person by the end of 2020. Of course, we can add NZ to that other human rights luminary that wants COVID zero, China.

 

[TSwizzle]

Here's another death cult mother harming her child much worse.

Hana Horka, 57, who was the vocalist for the band Asonance, died on Sunday, according to her son Jan Rek. She had voluntarily exposed herself to the virus when her husband and son, both vaccinated, caught it before Christmas, Rek told public radio iRozhlas.cz.

Is it possible to get through to you that my problem is with mandates for a vaccination that does very little (if anything) to “stop the spread”?

Two vaccinated people very likely passed on the virus. Hana made her choice not to get vaccinated for whatever reason so that’s her lookout.

 

[bilby]

Anti science left wing authoritarian goes full blown tyrant;

New Zealand will make household contacts of Covid cases isolate for 24 days under harsh new rules brought in to combat an impending Omicron outbreak. New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has brought in the strict measures as the country battles to stay Covid Zero despite the threat of the highly contagious mutant strain.

"anti science"



The tiny numbers of cases and of fatalities in NZ vs the rest of the developed world is just pure luck, then?

Thousands* of New Zealanders are alive today who would have died in the past two years, if only they had the good fortune to live in a free country. I feel terribly sorry for them. They have submitted to having their lives tyrannically saved by the actions of their democratically elected government. So scary.

Or does science in your right-wing freedom loving paradise not entail observing facts?

How does your right-wing alt-science^TM explain this discrepancy in illness and death, if it has nothing to do with masks or lockdowns?



* Over 14,000 if they had a similar fatality rate per capita to that of the USA

 

[Toni]

The three top epidemiological authorities in the U.S. are Anthony Fauci, Donald Trump and Alex Jones and, although all three have been vaccinated, two out of 3 do NOT support MANDATORY vaccinations.

Mandatory vaccinations are a political decision, not a medical decision.

Mandatory vaccinations are a political decision not a medical decision in the same sense that having standards for clean drinking water in any municipality is a political decision and not a medical one.

Well, yes, they are both political decisions, rightfully made by politicians who are elected by the community which the political decision will apply to.

Of course, different communities might want and need different standards for drinking water and raising or lowering those standards usually does not involve forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults.

Most medical decisions do not have potentially fatal consequences for the public at large or potentially catastrophic consequences for the economy or society.

I well remember when it became the norm to have seatbelts in all seats in a motor vehicle and when the use of seatbelts became mandatory. I remember very well how much some people pushed back against that-including members of my family. I also am aware that between 15K and 18K lives are saved annually because of seatbelt laws.

People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.

We mandate vaccination for children against common, potentially serious and life threatening communicable diseases to protect their lives and the lives of those who cannot be vaccinated because of medical conditions. The only reason we do not so mandate such vaccinations for adults is that they are normally vaccinated in childhood. In the US, university students who are legally adults, usually, must produce proof of vaccination in order to enroll. Those who enlist in the military, who serve in a medical setting and in many cases (and it should be ALL cases) who work in day care or home care/nursing home settings must be vaccinated against communicable diseases, including influenza and now COVID19 as a condition of employment. In some settings, vaccination against Hepatitis B is also required; in some states where Hepatitis A is endemic, vaccination against Hepatitis A is also mandatory. Not only are vaccinations against Hep A and B mandatory in some settings, so are follow up tests to demonstrate that you have acquired immunity against Hep A and Hep B. Note: Hepatitis B and C are spread through blood/body fluid exposure and Hepatitis A is spread through fecal-oral transmission meaning that one cannot transmit those illnesses through very casual contact as one can be infected by influenza or COVID19 or measles, mumps or rubella, or pertussis or other common childhood illnesses. Vaccinations are mandated where they are a matter of public health. During this pandemic, vaccination against COVID19 for all who are eligible and not precluded by medical condition should be mandatory.

 

[Metaphor]

People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.

I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.