Covid-19 miscellany

[Metaphor]

I oppose a specific mandate--of the government forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults.

Do you think vaccinating children before they are adults is wrong?

I've already spoken about this in another thread (or possibly even this one).

We do things to and for children that we would not do to adults, because children are children. Children don't have the cognitive capacity to consent to medical procedures so we do things to them without that consent. When those medical procedures are generally beneficial, this is a good thing. When those medical procedures are not (e.g. male and female genital mutilation), it's a bad thing.

But adults are not children.

 

[Metaphor]

Do you want a list of names? Why?

No, I don't want a list of names. I want people to stop dehumanising the unvaccinated.

No, it certainly looks like you want people to stop discouraging evil and fucked up behavior,

I do not consider refusing a vaccination evil and fucked up behaviour. I reject your poisoned well.

or you would be doing both discouraging people from evil and fucked up behavior (supporting mandates that people not do things that are either evil and fucked up, or what those evil and fucked up people want),

I do not consider not being vaccinated "evil and fucked up" and, even if I somehow did, I would still need to weigh whether supporting a mandate to force a vaccination on them was not even more evil and fucked up.

AND defending the victims of that fucked up evil behavior.

Why do you claim to do the one (badly, loudly, visibly "defend the unvaccinated") while not discouraging evil fucked up behavior and it's knock-on effects and victimizations?

I encouraged (still encourage, where possible) my unvaccinated brother to get the jab. I manage to do it without shunning him, reviling him, calling him to tell him he is fucked up and evil, hell, without even hating him or dehumanising him.

 

[repoman]

Why are you continuing to apologize for those who resist scientifically supported measures to stop the virus from killing a bunch of our friends, or even ourselves?

Why do you frame everything dishonestly and then expect me to take the bait?

Here's a question: why do you oppose the government kidnapping her citizens and physically forcing the COVID-19 jab on them?

For a vaccine that is where the virus was two years ago, even less sensible than doing this for one that would miraculously be very current.

Do you want a list of names? Why?

No, I don't want a list of names. I want people to stop dehumanising the unvaccinated.

Isn’t the point of scapegoating the unvaccinated to obfuscate the government’s inability to actually do anything about infections? When is the last time a politician ever admitted that a government policy was wrong?

If one sees that people infected to at least a moderate level (not just an asymptomatic PCR+) with older variants are now getting omicron at a moderate rate and even if you think that post-infection immunity is better than from vaccines then omicron breaking through a two year old recipe does not show that vaccines are ineffective for their design parameters. These vaccines were not designed for omicron and should not be mandated for it.

Why should I get a booster and risk my immune system getting more typecast for a two year old virus?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin

 

[Jarhyn]

I do not consider refusing a vaccination evil and fucked up behaviour.

Ok, there we go. I didn't say that refusing a vaccine was fucked up and evil behavior. I said it is doing what fucked up and evil people wish of you! It is STUPID behavior!

it certainly looks like you want people to stop discouraging evil and fucked up behavior, by speaking so loudly whenever someone speaks specifically about the actual fucked up and evil behavior (spreading malicious disinformation for sick amusement), trying to paint that objection as against the victims whose only "crime" is being suckered and weaponized by the sickly amused.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do you want a list of names? Why?

No, I don't want a list of names. I want people to stop dehumanising the unvaccinated.

Isn’t the point of scapegoating the unvaccinated to obfuscate the government’s inability to actually do anything about infections?

The Government spent a shitload of money to help create conditions that would incentivize pharma companies to develop vaccinations to prevent/reduce harm of the virus. The other issues were failures of the Trump Admin to not get real mask production through the roof, which Biden is finally doing with test kits and masks, providing a large demand to get production up.

As far as scapegoating, it isn't scapegoating to speak actual facts. Like that the unvax'd are the ones who were passing the virus around until the Delta came into play. They are also the ones dying the in hospital... also the ones primarily hogging the ER's.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

We do things to and for children that we would not do to adults, because children are children. Children don't have the cognitive capacity to consent to medical procedures so we do things to them without that consent. When those medical procedures are generally beneficial, this is a good thing. When those medical procedures are not (e.g. male and female genital mutilation), it's a bad thing.

The implication is that all adults have the cognitive capacity to make decisions about vaccinations but that children do not. Do you support adults who refuse to have their children vaccinated? I'm talking about tuberculosis, polio, etc., not covid.

 

[Elixir]

But I did not need further evidence that you casually dehumanise entire groups of people. I already had that evidence.

Aw.
FIFY
You’ll probably be terribly offended to learn that I’ll mock groups just for being groups sometimes, even if they’re not a threat to democracy. Casually, too. You probably didn’t know that snowflakes could have stripes.

 

[Metaphor]

Ok, there we go. I didn't say that refusing a vaccine was fucked up and evil behavior. I said it is doing what fucked up and evil people wish of you! It is STUPID behavior!

it certainly looks like you want people to stop discouraging evil and fucked up behavior, by speaking so loudly whenever someone speaks specifically about the actual fucked up and evil behavior (spreading malicious disinformation for sick amusement), trying to paint that objection as against the victims whose only "crime" is being suckered and weaponized by the sickly amused.

Perhaps people will take heed of your request to stop dehumanising the unvaccinated merely for being unvaccinated. Certainly I do not see any sign that they have changed their mind about it being justified.

 

[Metaphor]

The implication is that all adults have the cognitive capacity to make decisions about vaccinations but that children do not. Do you support adults who refuse to have their children vaccinated? I'm talking about tuberculosis, polio, etc., not covid.

Well, in Australia, we generally do let parents have that final decision and not the government, though certain behavioural nudges are employed (e.g. certain kinds of welfare bonuses being dependent on the child getting certain vaccines).

And when you say 'support' those adults, do you mean 'not forcibly have the State kidnap their children and take them away'?

EDIT: I also don't think all adults have the cognitive capacity to make decisions about vaccines, just that as a society we must pick an age where people are assumed to have that capacity and treated as if they do.

 

[Jarhyn]

Ok, there we go. I didn't say that refusing a vaccine was fucked up and evil behavior. I said it is doing what fucked up and evil people wish of you! It is STUPID behavior!

it certainly looks like you want people to stop discouraging evil and fucked up behavior, by speaking so loudly whenever someone speaks specifically about the actual fucked up and evil behavior (spreading malicious disinformation for sick amusement), trying to paint that objection as against the victims whose only "crime" is being suckered and weaponized by the sickly amused.

Perhaps people will take heed of your request to stop dehumanising the unvaccinated merely for being unvaccinated. Certainly I do not see any sign that they have changed their mind about it being justified.

And perhaps you will take heed of my request to stop playing at acting as circus clown for sick malevolence, by acknowledging that there are sick, malevolent actors here and that they deserve our ire, and those who are their victims deserve our pity:

That passing mandates to do exactly the things which reduce the impact and transmission of the virus is something to be lauded.

it certainly looks like you want people to stop discouraging evil and fucked up behavior, by speaking so loudly whenever someone speaks specifically about the actual fucked up and evil behavior (spreading malicious disinformation for sick amusement), trying to paint that objection as against the victims whose only "crime" is being suckered and weaponized by the sickly amused..

 

[Trausti]

The Government spent a shitload of money to help create conditions that would incentivize pharma companies to develop vaccinations to prevent/reduce harm of the virus. The other issues were failures of the Trump Admin to not get real mask production through the roof, which Biden is finally doing with test kits and masks, providing a large demand to get production up.

It’s hard to take this seriously. Biden promised he’d end the virus but it’s one failure after another. The VP said their administration didn’t anticipate the variants. These are some stupid fucking people.

 

[repoman]

So I have seen two assertions of data jiggering in hospitals in opposite directions.

First



Second



This is not a team sport for me, I want all the data to come out and then make a decision.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Does Mr. Swizzle just jump, like Pavlov's dog, from one non sequitur salivation to another? Has he already forgotten that Covid-19 is the 3rd highest cause of death in the U.S., behind only heart disease (#1) and all forms of cancer combined (#2); and is well ahead of all accidents combined (#4) and strokes (#5)? Covid-19 has killed 1.2 million in the U.S. and almost 8 million worldwide. (I've multiplied official numbers by 1.4 and, previously, linked to journal articles showing this to be a good multiplier to account for deaths due to unreported Covid-19.)

"Heart disease" covers many causes of death. Thus Covid is actually the #1 cause. If you count "heart disease" as one and "cancer" as one the comparison would be to "infection", not "Covid".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The thing is that there’s little difference between free states and lockdown states when it comes to rates of infection and death. The spikes occur regardless. The vaccines are probably beneficial to adults and have been available for over a year. The choice is either to continue with lockdowns and depriving freedom forever or to just learn to live with it. This policy difference will likely have a big impact on the midterms.

What you keep ignoring is that there is a big difference between blue states and red states in infection rates.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For a vaccine that is where the virus was two years ago, even less sensible than doing this for one that would miraculously be very current.

Does taking a vaccine and even moreso boosters for an extinct strain of this virus have a bucket of positives and a bucket of negatives for dealing with variants?

Does the immune system get too locked in to the original strain and make half ass vaccine trained antibodies and make a piss poor new response to the current variant?

The vaccine + booster worked pretty well even against Delta.

And against Omicron it does little to protect you from infection but it still does a lot to protect you from bad outcomes.

 

[Jarhyn]

For a vaccine that is where the virus was two years ago, even less sensible than doing this for one that would miraculously be very current.

Does taking a vaccine and even moreso boosters for an extinct strain of this virus have a bucket of positives and a bucket of negatives for dealing with variants?

Does the immune system get too locked in to the original strain and make half ass vaccine trained antibodies and make a piss poor new response to the current variant?

The vaccine + booster worked pretty well even against Delta.

And against Omicron it does little to protect you from infection but it still does a lot to protect you from bad outcomes.

And probably more than a little to reduce infectivity: if you cough less, you spread less.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If one sees that people infected to at least a moderate level (not just an asymptomatic PCR+) with older variants are now getting omicron at a moderate rate and even if you think that post-infection immunity is better than from vaccines then omicron breaking through a two year old recipe does not show that vaccines are ineffective for their design parameters. These vaccines were not designed for omicron and should not be mandated for it.

Why should I get a booster and risk my immune system getting more typecast for a two year old virus?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin

But the vaccine still generally keeps you from getting seriously ill if you do get Omicron. That's the most important metric.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So I have seen two assertions of data jiggering in hospitals in opposite directions.

First

I wouldn't even call this data jiggering. They're in the ICU because of what Covid did to their bodies, not because they still have Covid.

Second

This is not a team sport for me, I want all the data to come out and then make a decision.

Except that's not an option. We have to make decisions with inadequate data--to decide to wait to make the decision is to choose to take the path of inaction.

<Shoves Repoman out of an airplane>
<Repoman keeps shouting into his phone "when should I pull my ripcord" and eventually goes splat trying to get an answer>

 

[crazyfingers]

It’s hard to take this seriously. Biden promised he’d end the virus but it’s one failure after another. The VP said their administration didn’t anticipate the variants. These are some stupid fucking people.

Seriously? Anti-vax and anti-mask idiots are the real issue. Like the Republicans and right wing flame throwers. Anyone who knows anything about how the last year+ went knows that it's the fucking idiots who refused to be responsible messed it up.

 

[repoman]

So I have seen two assertions of data jiggering in hospitals in opposite directions.

First

I wouldn't even call this data jiggering. They're in the ICU because of what Covid did to their bodies, not because they still have Covid.

Second

This is not a team sport for me, I want all the data to come out and then make a decision.

Except that's not an option. We have to make decisions with inadequate data--to decide to wait to make the decision is to choose to take the path of inaction.

<Shoves Repoman out of an airplane>
<Repoman keeps shouting into his phone "when should I pull my ripcord" and eventually goes splat trying to get an answer>

If you look at the twitter thread you will see that they agree with you that the people are no longer listed as covid patients, but they SHOULD be.

On the note of taking action on imperfect and quickly gathered data, what about using full strength heparin?

This is from April 23, 2020