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Danica Roem

Obviously (well, it should be obvious to you), that's not true, and you have no good reason whatsoever to even suspect that I think so.

They can't win the argument so they insult you. Take the compliment.

Nah, they just get tired of having to explain it to her over and over again because she chooses to be obstinate in the face of new information.
 
They can't win the argument so they insult you. Take the compliment.

Nah, they just get tired of having to explain it to her over and over again because she chooses to be obstinate in the face of new information.

Angra isn't the one denying biology. If someone feels more comfortable presenting as the opposite sex; that's fine. But they are not that opposite sex. Wishful thinking doesn't erase millions of years of evolution.
 
No, you have crossed the line by accusing me of crossing the line.
:rolleyes:

My behavior is not boorish.
When you insist on calling a woman "he", your behavior is boorish.

Yours is religious, and unjust.
Since your blather about "souls" was YOUR red herring, and not even remotely related to anything I or anyone else here as said, your claim here is "unjust". boo-hoo.

You are the personification of illusory superiority, aren't you? You try so hard to demean and belittle everyone else while pretending you are the only *rational* actor here :rolleyes:

Would you say the same if I were challenging a person's claim that he is an alien abductee, or that he will go to heaven because he's been saved by Jesus? If not, what's the relevant difference?
The biggest difference is that both of your examples are describing actions - abducted by aliens, going to heaven.

As for my job, getting sued, etc., how would you expect that they would find out?
Various municipalities and companies have policies forbidding people like you from intentionally and consistently using the wrong pronoun to address a transgender person. If you behave in your job towards a transgender person the way you behave here when referring to Danica Roem, you could be fired.
 
Nah, they just get tired of having to explain it to her over and over again because she chooses to be obstinate in the face of new information.

Angra isn't the one denying biology. If someone feels more comfortable presenting as the opposite sex; that's fine. But they are not that opposite sex. Wishful thinking doesn't erase millions of years of evolution.
Biology does not alone determine gender.

If someone undergoes complete gender reassignment (surgery, hormone treatment, etc....), do you agree or disagree that person is now the new gender? So, if a man undergoes the entire process is that person now a woman? And if a woman undergoes that entire process is that person now a man?
 
"My gender is obviously the news story here, but it wasn't my chief qualification for office,"
Clearly.

"That's what qualified me for office," she said of her reporting experience.
And this is obviously up for debate.

"This is an administration that has declared that reporters are the enemies of the state," Roem said. "That's so wildly unacceptable.
Of course it is, since it's a boldface lie.
By electing a reporter both in the 13th District as well as the 12th District in Chris Hurst, people have made clear that they value what reporters bring to the table," Roehm said.
Of course not necessarily.

I'll always be a reporter before I'm a politician," Roehm added.
Again, obvious.

Asked how she reacts to replacing one of the state's most socially conservative lawmakers who hasn't always acted favorably towards the LGBT community, Roem declined to criticize Marshall.

"Look, the first thing is come January, Delegate Marshall is going to be one of my constituents, and I don't attack my constituents," Roem said, adding it's important to "be inclusive."
Uh, I think you should be able to easily answer this important reporter's valuable question without attacking Marshall.
 
As for my job, getting sued, etc., how would you expect that they would find out?
Various municipalities and companies have policies forbidding people like you from intentionally and consistently using the wrong pronoun to address a transgender person. If you behave in your job towards a transgender person the way you behave here when referring to Danica Roem, you could be fired.
Yes, kinda like kneeling during the National Anthem.
 
RavenSky said:
When you insist on calling a woman "he", your behavior is boorish.
It would be irrational on my part to believe that Roem is a woman.

RavenSky said:
Since your blather about "souls" was YOUR red herring, and not even remotely related to anything I or anyone else here as said, your claim here is "unjust". boo-hoo.
That was not a red herring. It was a reply to the claim that there was a difference between the person and the body. But that's not what I was talking about when I said your behavior is religious. I'm talking about your leftism - that's the religion on the basis of which you condemn me, on the basis of which you condemn me for even trying to assess whether Danica Roem is a woman.

RavenSky said:
You are the personification of illusory superiority, aren't you? You try so hard to demean and belittle everyone else while pretending you are the only *rational* actor here:rollyeyes:
That's false, and irrational of you to believe.
Clearly, not everyone here is being irrational, and also, not everyone other than me. And you have no reason whatsoever to even suspect I thought everyone else was being irrational.
Moreover, I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I'm defending myself. I was trying to get into a civil discussion about whether Danica Roem is a woman, because I see the repeated claim and the condemnations of dissenters, while I see no good evidence that Danica Roem is a woman.

RavenSky said:
Angra Mainyu said:
Would you say the same if I were challenging a person's claim that he is an alien abductee, or that he will go to heaven because he's been saved by Jesus? If not, what's the relevant difference?
The biggest difference is that both of your examples are describing actions - abducted by aliens, going to heaven.
That is not a relevant difference. Consider the following case: let's say a person tells me that he is Imago Dei (i.e., in the image of God), or that he has or is an immortal soul or spirit. Those are not actions, but claims about themselves.

RavenSky said:
Various municipalities and companies have policies forbidding people like you from intentionally and consistently using the wrong pronoun to address a transgender person. If you behave in your job towards a transgender person the way you behave here when referring to Danica Roem, you could be fired.
I don't know about fired, but they would force me out. But then, I would not do that. And in my job, I also would not question the person who says that he is or has an immortal soul or spirit, nor would I tell a Catholic that God does not exist, or that the creator described in the Bible is a nonexistent moral monster. But this is a discussion board, not my job.
 
RavenSky said:
Various municipalities and companies have policies forbidding people like you from intentionally and consistently using the wrong pronoun to address a transgender person. If you behave in your job towards a transgender person the way you behave here when referring to Danica Roem, you could be fired.
I don't know about fired, but they would force me out. But then, I would not do that. And in my job, I also would not question the person who says that he is or has an immortal soul or spirit, nor would I tell a Catholic that God does not exist, or that the creator described in the Bible is a nonexistent moral monster. But this is a discussion board, not my job.
Exactly.
 
There's been no derail on my part.

You are not a victim. Go away.

I called it way back in post#31. I've seen it before. Semantic quibbling, obtuseness, thinking everything is a debate game not a discussion among equals, extreme literalism, until finally accusations of insults within tbe context of a debate about semantics that was never asked for. I was smart to ignore and i still recommend it. Gender identity and role are not biology as its social. It is like how sexual orientation is a thing one knows about one's self. Transgendered persons are NOT claiming to be biologically the opposite sex until perhaps a physical transition. That distinction was already made. Angra lost the debate that no one asked for once he conceded there is a thing called gender role and that is not biological. Dizcussion of biological sex is a recurring red herring debunked and resurrected. The debate about a social word is already over.
 
Angra isn't the one denying biology. If someone feels more comfortable presenting as the opposite sex; that's fine. But they are not that opposite sex. Wishful thinking doesn't erase millions of years of evolution.
Biology does not alone determine gender.

If someone undergoes complete gender reassignment (surgery, hormone treatment, etc....), do you agree or disagree that person is now the new gender? So, if a man undergoes the entire process is that person now a woman? And if a woman undergoes that entire process is that person now a man?

No, surgery does not transform your gender. A surgeon does not have magical powers to change your natural person. A surgeon simply takes what you have, cuts it up, and reshapes it to mimic the appearance of something else. If it makes that patient happy - good for them. But the rest of us are not obliged to deny reality. At no point will a male to female transgender be able to do this.

bacteria.jpg
 
I love this quote:

While new medical research is validating for transgender people, none of them have been waiting for it to emerge. Few see the emerging science as having any significance beyond helping heteronormative people in the wider culture accept an alternative reality.

"Science is great if people need that kind of authority in order to believe something," one person explained to me, echoing the sentiment of many. "But I don't need science to tell me who I am."

And that is the last I will say on the subject in this thread.

Don's thread about Danica Roem has been derailed horribly, and I apologise to him for my part in it.
 
I love this quote:

While new medical research is validating for transgender people, none of them have been waiting for it to emerge. Few see the emerging science as having any significance beyond helping heteronormative people in the wider culture accept an alternative reality.

"Science is great if people need that kind of authority in order to believe something," one person explained to me, echoing the sentiment of many. "But I don't need science to tell me who I am."

And that is the last I will say on the subject in this thread.

Don's thread about Danica Roem has been derailed horribly, and I apologise to him for my part in it.

So it's a new religion you're promoting? A person may sincerely feel this or that way. But Loretta is never going to have a baby.

 
What if someone told you you are not who you are? That you are only to be defined as those around you dictate, by their observations alone. How offensive. We are who we are as we live in our head, not as those around us dictate. On what authority do you define me? Strip away my individuality?
By defining each person as man or woman we again are confronted with the problem of shoehorning people into categories when each of us is an individual. We probably all define ourselves as a man or woman on scale of femininity and masculinity both mentally and physically and not as an absolute.

Boy.JPG
 
So, I will now make some comments, exploring the second issue I mentioned earlier, and ask a few questions, for potential readers interested in a discussion. I would appreciate civil input.

So, is there a new consistent linguistic convention (including a few new concepts) that is used by a majority or at least by a large minority of native English speakers (at least, in America) that classifies people in a way different from the man/woman classification (perhaps more precise). If so, is Danica Roem is a trans woman, which is a specific sort of woman under a new meaning of "woman"? In particular, has the meaning of the word "woman" changed?

One could try to define "trans woman" ostensively, by pointing at Roem, Jenner, and others and say "that's a trans woman", and then point at other objects and say "that's not a trans woman". But that might create a new term, it does not follow that "woman" would change meaning. Perhaps, "trans woman" just picks male humans who believe themselves to be women, and "woman" remains unchanged. Or maybe not. But let's consider, for example, a potential classification with 4 or more categories. The 4 most common categories would be:

1. Cis woman.
2. Transwoman.
3. Cis man.
4. Trans-man.

That seems to capture at least the most common part of the proposed new classifications, if there is any such thing.

One can define the categories ostensibly, by pointing to examples of each, and examples of objects that do not belong in each (e.g., members of one of the others), or in any (e.g., polar bears, planets).
Is that what's going on?

Let's consider a case of a person - say, A - who have male sexual and reproductive organs. A believes that A is a woman. But later, A comes to the belief that A was mistaken, and that A is a man. Let's consider some options:

O1.: The word "woman" now picks categories 1. and 2., and the word "man" picks categories 3. and 4. A was a woman, and then became a man.
O2.: The word "woman" now picks categories 1. and 2., and the word "man" picks categories 3. and 4. A was mistaken about being a woman, and has been always a man, or is mistaken about being a man, and has always been a woman.
O3.: The word "woman" does not pick category and 2.

If O1 is true, then Danica Roem is probably a woman under this new meaning, but it's apparent that one usual claim made by transgender activists is not true - i.e., adults do change their gender sometimes.
If O2 is true, then the usual trans belief that people are never mistaken about their own gender is false.
If O3 is true, Danica Roem is not a woman, even if Danica Roem is a trans woman.

All of the options seem for different reasons bad for the leftist position, and indeed for trans activists.
Is there a better option, under those categories? I do not know. But activists seem adamant that people cannot be mistaken about their gender, and also (not all of those in this thread, though) that people do not change their gender. So, if anyone has a good answer, I would like to hear it.

Here's another problem: What does "trans woman" pick? What sort of properties is it tracking, roughly? I'm not asking for a full account, of course, but just a general idea.
Is it perhaps being a male and having a female brain?
But if so, O1 is probably not true (A's brain did not change like that, very probably), and we're back to O2, which seems to be problematic as well.

There is of course the question of whether there has indeed been a shift in meaning, even if some common claims by activists are false.
Maybe there is. But then again, it's hard to make sense of claims made by transgender people and activists that they knew all along that they were women(men) but others believed that they were men(women), etc., if there was a change of meaning in the words "man" and "woman", since the people making the claims seem to be talking as if the concepts remained unchanged. Are they equivocating?

Any ideas?
 
What if someone told you you are not who you are? That you are only to be defined as those around you dictate, by their observations alone. How offensive. We are who we are as we live in our head, not as those around us dictate. On what authority do you define me? Strip away my individuality?
By defining each person as man or woman we again are confronted with the problem of shoehorning people into categories when each of us is an individual. We probably all define ourselves as a man or woman on scale of femininity and masculinity both mentally and physically and not as an absolute.

View attachment 13122

It's not about defining anyone; nature already did that. What's odd about "we are who we are as we live in our head viewpoint" is that it's hardly consistent. Rachel Dolezal is a black woman, right? Et tu, Sammy Sosa?

4636162700000578-0-image-a-88_1510339337607.jpg



Heck, 'cause I want all the institutional benefits, too, I'm an obese lesbian wheel-chair bound beautiful black woman. Don't deny me my own reality. I wanna be on the top of the progressive stack.

It's one thing to acknowledge that a person may have a preference to appear as the opposite sex. Fine. It's another thing to say that that preference makes that person, in fact, the opposite sex.
 
Traffic Jams Are Bipartisan

(Well... unless you are Christie, but that's a different state)

“There isn’t a conservative or progressive, Democratic or Republican way to build a bridge. When you’re focusing on infrastructure, that’s stuff that affects everyone,” Roem said, “My constituents are having a miserable commute every single day,” she said.

Roem says she’s already begun work aimed at fulfilling her campaign pledge to reduce traffic congestion on Route 28, reaching out to delegates representing Fairfax County.

“We have to look at Route 28 and improving it more comprehensively. We have to look at this as a region, not just hide behind our district lines,” Roem said, in a Friday conference call with reporters.

Roem wants to replace traffic lights with interchanges through Centreville and build flyovers and southbound turn lanes at Orchard Bridge Drive and Yorkshire Lane.

https://wtop.com/virginia/2017/11/danica-roem-route-28/
 
What if someone told you you are not who you are? That you are only to be defined as those around you dictate, by their observations alone. How offensive. We are who we are as we live in our head, not as those around us dictate. On what authority do you define me? Strip away my individuality?
By defining each person as man or woman we again are confronted with the problem of shoehorning people into categories when each of us is an individual. We probably all define ourselves as a man or woman on scale of femininity and masculinity both mentally and physically and not as an absolute.

View attachment 13122

It's not about defining anyone; nature already did that. What's odd about "we are who we are as we live in our head viewpoint" is that it's hardly consistent. Rachel Dolezal is a black woman, right? Et tu, Sammy Sosa?

4636162700000578-0-image-a-88_1510339337607.jpg



Heck, 'cause I want all the institutional benefits, too, I'm an obese lesbian wheel-chair bound beautiful black woman. Don't deny me my own reality. I wanna be on the top of the progressive stack.

It's one thing to acknowledge that a person may have a preference to appear as the opposite sex. Fine. It's another thing to say that that preference makes that person, in fact, the opposite sex.

Nature seems to have spread us across a gender spectrum, hence my comment about degrees of masculinity and femininity. People dropped us in these male and female categories.

And it's still another thing to dismiss a person who has been aware from a very young age that their mind and body has been in conflict about their gender. They're not looking to game the system. They're looking to gain society's acceptance.
 
Still, another way to argue for the claim that Danica Roem is a woman might be to argue that the word "woman" has changed meaning, and now predominant usage among English speakers is that anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman, or something along those lines. That does not seem warranted, though I'm open to the evidence. But if that were true, that surely would not warrant claim that someone realized she was a woman, etc., or that those who said otherwise in the past were in error, etc.

I think the analogy to being transracial is apt here. People balk at the concept of being transracial (a white person deciding to identify as black), but not at the concept of being transgender. Why is that?
 
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