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Danica Roem

What if someone told you you are not who you are? That you are only to be defined as those around you dictate, by their observations alone. How offensive.
People do it to each other nearly all the time.

We are who we are as we live in our head, not as those around us dictate.
Merely what's in our heads.
On what authority do you define me? Strip away my individuality?
Again, it's very common, yet one just doesn't necessarily have to abide by it.
By defining each person as man or woman we again are confronted with the problem of shoehorning people into categories when each of us is an individual.
Instead, many can be seen as painfully shoehorning their own personal view of themselves.
 
The cells can be male or female (according X/Y chromosomes)
The body can be male, female or others (according genital organs)
The person can be male, female or others. (According to the persons self image)

Do you acknowledge that these 3 categorizations are separate?

I think this is the key question.

It could get this thread into something more productive, and it took only 10 pages of false, unwarranted accusations against AM to get to it. You should be proud.
 
Still, another way to argue for the claim that Danica Roem is a woman might be to argue that the word "woman" has changed meaning, and now predominant usage among English speakers is that anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman, or something along those lines. That does not seem warranted, though I'm open to the evidence. But if that were true, that surely would not warrant claim that someone realized she was a woman, etc., or that those who said otherwise in the past were in error, etc.

I think the analogy to being transracial is apt here. People balk at the concept of being transracial (a white person deciding to identify as black), but not at the concept of being transgender. Why is that?
One thing, because there shouldn't be any differences in thought between the races, or it creates more fuel for racists.
 
At no point will a male to female transgender be able to do this.

bacteria.jpg

LMAO I don't know who Donovan Paisley is, but I like him/her already.
 
What if someone told you you are not who you are? That you are only to be defined as those around you dictate, by their observations alone. How offensive. We are who we are as we live in our head, not as those around us dictate.

I think we call this self-delusion. But if we are playing this game, I'll be an 8 foot tall black man with rippling muscles and president of the universe. Who are you to say otherwise? Don't strip me of my individuality.
 
What if someone told you you are not who you are? That you are only to be defined as those around you dictate, by their observations alone. How offensive. We are who we are as we live in our head, not as those around us dictate.

I think we call this self-delusion. But if we are playing this game, I'll be an 8 foot tall black man with rippling muscles and president of the universe. Who are you to say otherwise? Don't strip me of my individuality.

And I believe that you should be allowed to use the restroom dedicated to 8' tall black universal presidents if that's what makes you comfortable.
 
So, I will now make some comments, exploring the second issue I mentioned earlier, and ask a few questions, for potential readers interested in a discussion. I would appreciate civil input.

So, is there a new consistent linguistic convention (including a few new concepts) that is used by a majority or at least by a large minority of native English speakers (at least, in America) that classifies people in a way different from the man/woman classification (perhaps more precise). If so, is Danica Roem is a trans woman, which is a specific sort of woman under a new meaning of "woman"? In particular, has the meaning of the word "woman" changed?

One could try to define "trans woman" ostensively, by pointing at Roem, Jenner, and others and say "that's a trans woman", and then point at other objects and say "that's not a trans woman". But that might create a new term, it does not follow that "woman" would change meaning. Perhaps, "trans woman" just picks male humans who believe themselves to be women, and "woman" remains unchanged. Or maybe not. But let's consider, for example, a potential classification with 4 or more categories. The 4 most common categories would be:

1. Cis woman.
2. Transwoman.
3. Cis man.
4. Trans-man.

That seems to capture at least the most common part of the proposed new classifications, if there is any such thing.

One can define the categories ostensibly, by pointing to examples of each, and examples of objects that do not belong in each (e.g., members of one of the others), or in any (e.g., polar bears, planets).
Is that what's going on?

Let's consider a case of a person - say, A - who have male sexual and reproductive organs. A believes that A is a woman. But later, A comes to the belief that A was mistaken, and that A is a man. Let's consider some options:

O1.: The word "woman" now picks categories 1. and 2., and the word "man" picks categories 3. and 4. A was a woman, and then became a man.
O2.: The word "woman" now picks categories 1. and 2., and the word "man" picks categories 3. and 4. A was mistaken about being a woman, and has been always a man, or is mistaken about being a man, and has always been a woman.
O3.: The word "woman" does not pick category and 2.

If O1 is true, then Danica Roem is probably a woman under this new meaning, but it's apparent that one usual claim made by transgender activists is not true - i.e., adults do change their gender sometimes.
If O2 is true, then the usual trans belief that people are never mistaken about their own gender is false.
If O3 is true, Danica Roem is not a woman, even if Danica Roem is a trans woman.

All of the options seem for different reasons bad for the leftist position, and indeed for trans activists.
Is there a better option, under those categories? I do not know. But activists seem adamant that people cannot be mistaken about their gender, and also (not all of those in this thread, though) that people do not change their gender. So, if anyone has a good answer, I would like to hear it.

Here's another problem: What does "trans woman" pick? What sort of properties is it tracking, roughly? I'm not asking for a full account, of course, but just a general idea.
Is it perhaps being a male and having a female brain?
But if so, O1 is probably not true (A's brain did not change like that, very probably), and we're back to O2, which seems to be problematic as well.

There is of course the question of whether there has indeed been a shift in meaning, even if some common claims by activists are false.
Maybe there is. But then again, it's hard to make sense of claims made by transgender people and activists that they knew all along that they were women(men) but others believed that they were men(women), etc., if there was a change of meaning in the words "man" and "woman", since the people making the claims seem to be talking as if the concepts remained unchanged. Are they equivocating?

Any ideas?

Probably this is a better discussion for a thread started already created about this topic. This is more of a thread about the politics surrounding Delegate Danica Roem, and has sufficiently been derailed already.
 
Still, another way to argue for the claim that Danica Roem is a woman might be to argue that the word "woman" has changed meaning, and now predominant usage among English speakers is that anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman, or something along those lines. That does not seem warranted, though I'm open to the evidence. But if that were true, that surely would not warrant claim that someone realized she was a woman, etc., or that those who said otherwise in the past were in error, etc.

I think the analogy to being transracial is apt here. People balk at the concept of being transracial (a white person deciding to identify as black), but not at the concept of being transgender. Why is that?
Some people balk at the concept of being transracial. Some people balk at the concept of transgender. So what? Or are you saying there are the people who balk at the concept of being transracial but do not balk at the concept of being transgender? If that is what you are asking, don't you think you should ask those people instead of posting some nebulous generalization?
 
Still, another way to argue for the claim that Danica Roem is a woman might be to argue that the word "woman" has changed meaning, and now predominant usage among English speakers is that anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman, or something along those lines. That does not seem warranted, though I'm open to the evidence. But if that were true, that surely would not warrant claim that someone realized she was a woman, etc., or that those who said otherwise in the past were in error, etc.

I think the analogy to being transracial is apt here. People balk at the concept of being transracial (a white person deciding to identify as black), but not at the concept of being transgender. Why is that?
Some people balk at the concept of being transracial. Some people balk at the concept of transgender. So what? Or are you saying there are the people who balk at the concept of being transracial but do not balk at the concept of being transgender? If that is what you are asking, don't you think you should ask those people instead of posting some nebulous generalization?

Jolly is obviously asking that question. Why are you afraid of that question?
 
I think the analogy to being transracial is apt here. People balk at the concept of being transracial (a white person deciding to identify as black), but not at the concept of being transgender. Why is that?
Some people balk at the concept of being transracial. Some people balk at the concept of transgender. So what? Or are you saying there are the people who balk at the concept of being transracial but do not balk at the concept of being transgender? If that is what you are asking, don't you think you should ask those people instead of posting some nebulous generalization?

Jolly is obviously asking that question.
No, he is not obviously asking that question.
Why are you afraid of that question?
I don't know that there are people who are against the concept of being transracial but not transgender. But if there are such people, he ought to be asking them why they feel or think that way. Otherwise, he will get pure speculative responses. I have no idea why someone would feel that way.

I noticed you did not answer the "obvious" question. Why are you afraid of that question?
 
Some people balk at the concept of being transracial. Some people balk at the concept of transgender. So what? Or are you saying there are the people who balk at the concept of being transracial but do not balk at the concept of being transgender? If that is what you are asking, don't you think you should ask those people instead of posting some nebulous generalization?

Jolly is obviously asking that question.
No, he is not obviously asking that question.
Why are you afraid of that question?
I don't know that there are people who are against the concept of being transracial but not transgender. But if there are such people, he ought to be asking them why they feel or think that way. Otherwise, he will get pure speculative responses. I have no idea why someone would feel that way.

I noticed you did not answer the "obvious" question. Why are you afraid of that question?

If you are whatever you think you are in your head, then, as I wrote previously, I'm an obese lesbian wheel-chair bound beautiful Black woman. Are you afraid of my proud crippled side-saddle corpulent feminine Blackness?
 
Holy hell, y'all. There's another thread just waiting for the whole transgenderism qua transgenderism discussion. This particular thread is about Danica Roem. I think it's been derailed enough.
 
Holy hell, y'all. There's another thread just waiting for the whole transgenderism qua transgenderism discussion. This particular thread is about Danica Roem. I think it's been derailed enough.

This is a transthread. Stop yer hating.
 
Jolly is obviously asking that question.
No, he is not obviously asking that question.
Why are you afraid of that question?
I don't know that there are people who are against the concept of being transracial but not transgender. But if there are such people, he ought to be asking them why they feel or think that way. Otherwise, he will get pure speculative responses. I have no idea why someone would feel that way.

I noticed you did not answer the "obvious" question. Why are you afraid of that question?

If you are whatever you think you are in your head, then, as I wrote previously, I'm an obese lesbian wheel-chair bound beautiful Black woman. Are you afraid of my proud crippled side-saddle corpulent feminine Blackness?
Stop blowing smoke. What are you afraid of that question?
 
laughing dog said:
Or are you saying there are the people who balk at the concept of being transracial but do not balk at the concept of being transgender?

Yes. I am saying that. And I am saying that includes most people who push transgender as a thing. Are you saying you accept transracial as a thing? Is that guy in the other thread in reality a Filipino? Is Trausti really a black woman? Or do you draw the line somewhere on this we are whatever we say we are schtick?
 
What if someone told you you are not who you are? That you are only to be defined as those around you dictate, by their observations alone. How offensive. We are who we are as we live in our head, not as those around us dictate.

I think we call this self-delusion. But if we are playing this game, I'll be an 8 foot tall black man with rippling muscles and president of the universe. Who are you to say otherwise? Don't strip me of my individuality.

Perhaps what you are discribing is “self-delusion” for those who want to be president of the universe or KITT or whatever else you might dream up. I’ll leave that for you and your ilk to defend. For those who identify as the opposite gender, there are studies that show biological differences in brain structure of these people and one study shows these biological differences as early as adolescence. Which does coincide with when transgender people claim this awareness starts to develop.
 
What if someone told you you are not who you are? That you are only to be defined as those around you dictate, by their observations alone. How offensive. We are who we are as we live in our head, not as those around us dictate.

I think we call this self-delusion. But if we are playing this game, I'll be an 8 foot tall black man with rippling muscles and president of the universe. Who are you to say otherwise? Don't strip me of my individuality.

Perhaps what you are discribing is “self-delusion” for those who want to be president of the universe or KITT or whatever else you might dream up. I’ll leave that for you and your ilk to defend. For those who identify as the opposite gender, there are studies that show biological differences in brain structure of these people and one study shows these biological differences as early as adolescence. Which does coincide with when transgender people claim this awareness starts to develop.

If not earlier:

At the Gender and Family Project, Jean Malpas said counselors “look for three things in children who express the wish to be a different gender”: that the wish be “persistent, consistent, and insistent.” And many children who come to his clinic meet the mark, he told me, even some five-year-olds. “They’ve been feeling this way for a long time, and they don’t look back.”

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?12354-The-Science-of-Gender-and-Sexual-Orientation
 
What if someone told you you are not who you are? That you are only to be defined as those around you dictate, by their observations alone. How offensive. We are who we are as we live in our head, not as those around us dictate.

I think we call this self-delusion. But if we are playing this game, I'll be an 8 foot tall black man with rippling muscles and president of the universe. Who are you to say otherwise? Don't strip me of my individuality.

Perhaps what you are discribing is “self-delusion” for those who want to be president of the universe or KITT or whatever else you might dream up. I’ll leave that for you and your ilk to defend. For those who identify as the opposite gender, there are studies that show biological differences in brain structure of these people and one study shows these biological differences as early as adolescence. Which does coincide with when transgender people claim this awareness starts to develop.

That's an interesting point, and should have been brought up when AM was asking. I don't think you were active in the thread then (nor was I) so its not on you. So, in order to force us all to call he a she, should we require some sort of brain scan?

If not, then this works directly against all the feminism and gender politics stuff we see regularly from SJWs, yes? Or at least drastically conflates it.

Can a trans man mansplain to a trans woman? Should trans women get free entry on ladies night? Should they pay more for hair cuts? Do trans women qualify for any affirmative action programs or scholarships available exclusively to women?

Do we also accept those who say they are constantly switching back and forth between man and woman, as doing that for the purpose of our laws and policies?

And also, what is the basis of all of these laws seeking to punish people for not using the preferred pronoun people self identify as? I have seen bans on certain taboo words, both explatives such as "fuck" and slurs such as "nigger","retard" etc, but this is the first time I have seen compelled speech added to laws. Jordan Peterson had a very good point on this. And for all those who say "well what if they called you (the non-trans male) she?", I don't believe that has ever been illegal. Just weird.
 
laughing dog said:
Or are you saying there are the people who balk at the concept of being transracial but do not balk at the concept of being transgender?

Yes. I am saying that. And I am saying that includes most people who push transgender as a thing
Is this your opinion or some sort of verifiable empirical observation?
Are you saying you accept transracial as a thing? Is that guy in the other thread in reality a Filipino? Is Trausti really a black woman?
I don't care what these people say they are. If someone tells me he or she is _____, I will treat them as a _____ if there are reasons for different treatment.

Or do you draw the line somewhere on this we are whatever we say we are schtick?
I suppose there may be some specialized circumstances were verification of _____ is necessary. But, in general, no.
 
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