Dating the Flood back 650 years

[bilby]

excreationist, you haven't read a single one of the links or other information that was given to you in this thread, have you?

Given that, why should anyone continue to even try to engage with you (except for our own amusement)?

See #34 and #36
"As far as evidence for the flood goes - I believe in an old earth so I don’t need to prove the flood"

I'm just saying some problems are fixed by changing the date of the flood. And the genealogies can't involve months instead of years.

For the flood story to cease being laughably implausible requires more than just fixing some problems.

 

[DBT]

The genealogies can involve centuries, it still won't work.....

 

[Worldtraveller]

excreationist, you haven't read a single one of the links or other information that was given to you in this thread, have you?

Given that, why should anyone continue to even try to engage with you (except for our own amusement)?

See #34 and #36
"As far as evidence for the flood goes - I believe in an old earth so I don’t need to prove the flood"

I'm just saying some problems are fixed by changing the date of the flood. And the genealogies can't involve months instead of years.

For the flood story to cease being laughably implausible requires more than just fixing some problems.

Agreed. It's like saying that if we ignore the fact that people can't fly (without help), Superman might actually be real.

But ignoring all the other things like super strength, laser eyes, etc. Sure....let's play that game. NOT.

 

[funinspace]

But should we ignore this

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If nothing else, the bibleflood story illustrates the amazing survival ability of American Indians and Australian Aborigines. Those suckers were able to tread water for a year.

Don't you guys know there were no separate groups until after Babel? And all the continents were one until they split apart when Peleg was alive.

- - - Updated - - -

excreationist, you haven't read a single one of the links or other information that was given to you in this thread, have you?

Given that, why should anyone continue to even try to engage with you (except for our own amusement)?

See #34 and #36
"As far as evidence for the flood goes - I believe in an old earth so I don’t need to prove the flood"

I'm just saying some problems are fixed by changing the date of the flood.

No. Changing the date doesn't help the flood. History keeps getting in the way.

And the genealogies can't involve months instead of years.

Well, at least that issue has been resolved. *phew*

 

[Learner]

The Wall protected them from the flood.

That must be what FFvC wants a Yuuge Wall

More seriously, circa 3,000 BC the people in Sumer were busy doing fun stuff with their newish cuniform script, like recording how to make beer. Pushing the silly Deluge tale back another 600ish years does nothing...never mind the geological records never noticing the fake Deluge.



Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform

Quite interesting. The Chinese "Edit: also" had their earliest writings dated 3000 years ago. They were also "monotheistic" long before the likes of Confucious, which is not as well known apparently. Now of course we can make the suggestion some plagiarism was at play somewhere , since there were gods all over the ancient world. In this case ...one could wonder who is the actual originator of Genesis story. The Israelites or the Chinese with their version; Heavenly King, Shang Di? Or .. both are the same? Oddly enough, often mentioned by atheists in debates "the Chinese were long before the Hebrews etc..etc.."

There are several vids about by various people , I just posted this one that popped up first, (without checking the whole vid, but no doubt the explanation is all there) should one be interested.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MeywQgz4Po[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g72Mb8wEdcI[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Keith&Co.]

Quite interesting. The Chinese also had their earliest writings dated 3000 years ago.

Also?

3000BCE is not 3000 years ago... 5000 y.a.

 

[Learner]

Quite interesting. The Chinese also had their earliest writings dated 3000 years ago.

Also?

3000BCE is not 3000 years ago... 5000 y.a.

Oopsy daisy ... thanks mate.

 

[Learner]

The second vid is perhaps too sermon like for this thread (too late to edit).

 

[funinspace]

Quite interesting. The Chinese also had their earliest writings dated 3000 years ago.

Also?

3000BCE is not 3000 years ago... 5000 y.a.

LOL...yep. Anywho, neither the Sumerians nor the Chinese developed their writing systems a year or two. They evolved over centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_numeral_systems#Clay_tokens

The earliest known writing for record keeping evolved from a system of counting using small clay tokens. The earliest tokens now known are those from two sites in the Zagros region of Iran: Tepe Asiab and Ganj-i-Dareh Tepe.[6]

To create a record that represented "two sheep", they selected two round clay tokens each having a + sign baked into it. Each token represented one sheep. Representing a hundred sheep with a hundred tokens would be impractical, so they invented different clay tokens to represent different numbers of each specific commodity, and by 4000 BC strung the tokens like beads on a string.[7] There was a token for one sheep, a different token for ten sheep, a different token for ten goats, etc. Thirty-two sheep would be represented by three ten-sheep tokens followed on the string by two one-sheep tokens.

To ensure that nobody could alter the number and type of tokens, they invented a clay envelope shaped like a hollow ball into which the tokens on a string were placed, sealed, and baked. If anybody disputed the number, they could break open the clay envelope and do a recount. To avoid unnecessary damage to the record, they pressed archaic number signs and witness seals on the outside of the envelope before it was baked, each sign similar in shape to the tokens they represented. Since there was seldom any need to break open the envelope, the signs on the outside became the first written language for writing numbers in clay. An alternative method was to seal the knot in each string of tokens with a solid oblong bulla of clay having impressed symbols, while the string of tokens dangled outside of the bulla.[8]

Beginning about 3500 BC the tokens and envelopes were replaced by numerals impressed with a round stylus at different angles in flat clay tablets which were then baked.[9] A sharp stylus was used to carve pictographs representing various tokens. Each sign represented both the commodity being counted and the quantity or volume of that commodity.

Abstract numerals, dissociated from the thing being counted, were invented about 3100 BC.[10] The things being counted were indicated by pictographs carved with a sharp stylus next to round-stylus numerals.

The Sumerians had a complex assortment of incompatible number systems, and each city had its own local way of writing numerals. For instance, at about 3100 BC in the city of Uruk, there were more than a dozen different numeric systems.

Though we might not understand the earlier Chinese symbols, they certainly seem to be trying to convey something. One thing that one has to watch for with talking about Chinese writing, is the fact that it is often discussed as the oldest continuously used writing system, which is not the same as them probably doing other stuff before it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_signs_in_China

Another group of early symbols, which many have compared to Chinese characters, are the Banpo symbols from sites like Banpo, just east of Xi'an in Shaanxi dating from the 5th millennium BCE,[e] and nearby, at Jiangzhai, in Lintong District, from the early 4th millennium BCE. As the Banpo symbols were discovered fairly early (1954–57)[12] and are relatively numerous (with 22 different symbols on 113 sherds),[13] these have been the focus of the most attention.

Some scholars have concluded that they are meaningful symbols like clan emblems or signatures which have some of the quality of writing, perhaps being primitive characters,[14] while others have concluded based on comparisons to oracle bone script that some of them are numerals.
<snip>
Inscription-bearing artifacts from the Dawenkou culture in Shandong, dating to c. 2800–2500 BCE,[31] have also been unearthed since excavations started in the 1950s,[32][33] and have drawn a great deal of interest amongst researchers, in part because the Dawenkou culture is believed to be directly ancestral[32] to the Longshan culture, which in turn is thought ancestral to the Shang, where the first undisputed Chinese writing appears. At a Dawenkou site in Shandong, one pictorial symbol has been found painted in cinnabar,[34] while at the Dawenkou sites by the Língyáng River (陵陽河) and in Dàzhū Village (大朱村), eighteen isolated pictorial symbols of eight types incised and/or painted with cinnabar on sixteen pottery jars and shards have been found, mostly from wealthier tombs.[35] Some resemble axes, and another has been variously described as resembling the sun above a cloud or fire Dawenkou symbol 1, while a third type has the latter above a fire or mountain-like element.

In addition to the similarity in style between these and pictographic Shang and early Zhou clan symbols,[36] what is important about the latter two types is that they have multiple components, reminiscent of the compounding of elements in the Chinese script, thus eliciting claims of a relationship.

I know books are no longer in fashion, but here is a good book reference for anyone who wants real details:
https://www.amazon.com/Early-History-Ancient-Near-9000-2000/dp/0226586588
The Early History of the Ancient Near East, 9000-2000 B.C.; by Hans J. Nissen

 

[Learner]

LOL...yep. Anywho, neither the Sumerians nor the Chinese developed their writing systems a year or two. They evolved over centuries.

A good erm ...response lol. And so .. I'd say, they merely "re-introduced" a writing system after the flood (imo of course) which is intriguing when both are having the same ideas .. to be developing writngs but not having any mutual contact with each other.

More importantly; what are the implications if the source of their "story" IS from the same source as the Hebrews? Well we could "dispel" with the notion that Genesis was invented much later than claimed by experts , or that the Chinese were the first to come up with the "Golden rule" and so forth , which reminds me of old Confucious (often mention in religious debates). We would not be wrong to make the suggestion that he got the influence to" love others" understanding, from writings such as the "Shang Di" montheistic narratives .

 

[Sarpedon]

Yes, it really puts a number on flood mythology.

While the flood is washing seashells from the ocean hundreds of miles and then up a mountain, you expect the clay tablets from the previously existing civilizations to still be around and legible to the people who would replace them. And then these people would be able to decipher them, and then choose to use the same language themselves.

The flood was supposed to have created rock strata, yet somehow the artifacts of pre-flood civilizations all end up in the top stratum.

 

[funinspace]

LOL...yep. Anywho, neither the Sumerians nor the Chinese developed their writing systems a year or two. They evolved over centuries.

A good erm ...response lol. And so .. I'd say, they merely "re-introduced" a writing system after the flood (imo of course) which is intriguing when both are having the same ideas .. to be developing writngs but not having any mutual contact with each other.

More importantly; what are the implications if the source of their "story" IS from the same source as the Hebrews? Well we could "dispel" with the notion that Genesis was invented much later than claimed by experts , or that the Chinese were the first to come up with the "Golden rule" and so forth , which reminds me of old Confucious (often mention in religious debates). We would not be wrong to make the suggestion that he got the influence to" love others" understanding, from writings such as the "Shang Di" montheistic narratives .

Well, getting beyond the reality that the earth never noticed a global earth surface covering flood of water in the last 800,000 or so years; or shall we bend the spoon? Nothing, absolutely nothing, supports the notion outside of fairy tales.

Ok, that said...notions of 're-introduced writing systems' is purely and un-evidenced speculation. Secondly, what makes you think Shandi was about monotheism? Of course many think the roots of Yahweh weren't monotheistic either, so then they would have something in common. You might as well ask 'What if Loki is the real God, and he gets his socks off by playing differing gods to differing people over the ages and watching the cacophony?'. That would fit the evidence better than the God-breathed world of the Bible. Nothing suggests the Hebrew theistic roots have any ties to the Chinese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi

The earliest references to Shangdi are found in oracle bone inscriptions of the Shang Dynasty in the 2nd millennium BC, although the later work Classic of History claims yearly sacrifices were made to him by Emperor Shun, even before the Xia Dynasty.

Shangdi was regarded as the ultimate spiritual power by the ruling elite of the Huaxia during the Shang dynasty: he was believed to control victory in battle, success or failure of harvests, weather conditions such as the floods of the Yellow River, and the fate of the kingdom. Shangdi seems to have ruled a hierarchy of other gods controlling nature, as well as the spirits of the deceased.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

LOL...yep. Anywho, neither the Sumerians nor the Chinese developed their writing systems a year or two. They evolved over centuries.

A good erm ...response lol. And so .. I'd say, they merely "re-introduced" a writing system after the flood (imo of course) which is intriguing when both are having the same ideas .. to be developing writngs but not having any mutual contact with each other.

Aren't they dead after the flood?

 

[Keith&Co.]

LOL...yep. Anywho, neither the Sumerians nor the Chinese developed their writing systems a year or two. They evolved over centuries.

A good erm ...response lol. And so .. I'd say, they merely "re-introduced" a writing system after the flood (imo of course) which is intriguing when both are having the same ideas .. to be developing writngs but not having any mutual contact with each other.

Aren't they dead after the flood?

Only if they breathed through their nostrils.
If they're mouth-breathers, they're not alive, biblically. So they couldn't actually die.
Like butterflies and plants and whales... Not saved from the Flood as they weren't threatened by it.

So maybe they just spent 6-10 months telling each other, "What the FUCK is up with the humidity this season?"

 

[atrib]

excreationist, you haven't read a single one of the links or other information that was given to you in this thread, have you?

Given that, why should anyone continue to even try to engage with you (except for our own amusement)?

See #34 and #36
"As far as evidence for the flood goes - I believe in an old earth so I don’t need to prove the flood"

I'm just saying some problems are fixed by changing the date of the flood. And the genealogies can't involve months instead of years.

Nothing is fixed by changing the dates. There are insurmountable problems associated with the flood story that can't be reconciled with reality no matter how generously you interpret the account.

1. Where did all this water come from and how was it delivered to Earth?
2. How did a wooden boat survive a storm event of this magnitude?
3. How were the animals rounded up from different continents and transported to the ark and back to their native lands?
4. Why did none of the human civilizations of the time notice they had all been buried in tens of thousands of feet of water?
5. How did a small handful of individuals, Noah's descendants, repopulate the planet in a matter of years and adopt all the languages, cultures, traditions and phenotype characteristics of the people who were alive prior to the flood?
6. Why did a catastrophic flood of this magnitude leave no trace in the geological record, when a considerably smaller extinction event from 65 million years ago (K-T Boundary) left such obvious evidence all over the planet?
7. Why did the extreme bottleneck created by such a global extinction event in all living things not show up in the genomes of things alive today.

The list goes on. And I haven't even touched on the questions of morality associated with committing a crime of this magnitude. Most humans would give up their lives to keep their children from harm, but an all-powerful creator thinks so little of the creation it allegedly loves that it kills everyone. And then repents while basking in the aroma of burnt flesh. Does this make any sense?

 

[skepticalbip]

If nothing else, the bibleflood story illustrates the amazing survival ability of American Indians and Australian Aborigines. Those suckers were able to tread water for a year.

After the Flood in Genesis 11 the people were worried about being scattered over the face of the whole earth (verse 4). Then God did that (verse 8 and 9). So I guess they were carried around the earth or teleported or something.

Also teleported through time back about 50,000 years in the case of the Australian Aborigines?

 

[skepticalbip]

excreationist, you haven't read a single one of the links or other information that was given to you in this thread, have you?

Given that, why should anyone continue to even try to engage with you (except for our own amusement)?

See #34 and #36
"As far as evidence for the flood goes - I believe in an old earth so I don’t need to prove the flood"

I'm just saying some problems are fixed by changing the date of the flood. And the genealogies can't involve months instead of years.

Nothing is fixed by changing the dates. There are insurmountable problems associated with the flood story that can't be reconciled with reality no matter how generously you interpret the account.

1. Where did all this water come from and how was it delivered to Earth?
2. How did a wooden boat survive a storm event of this magnitude?
3. How were the animals rounded up from different continents and transported to the ark and back to their native lands?
4. Why did none of the human civilizations of the time notice they had all been buried in tens of thousands of feet of water?
5. How did a small handful of individuals, Noah's descendants, repopulate the planet in a matter of years and adopt all the languages, cultures, traditions and phenotype characteristics of the people who were alive prior to the flood?
6. Why did a catastrophic flood of this magnitude leave no trace in the geological record, when a considerably smaller extinction event from 65 million years ago (K-T Boundary) left such obvious evidence all over the planet?
7. Why did the extreme bottleneck created by such a global extinction event in all living things not show up in the genomes of things alive today.

The list goes on. And I haven't even touched on the questions of morality associated with committing a crime of this magnitude. Most humans would give up their lives to keep their children from harm, but an all-powerful creator thinks so little of the creation it allegedly loves that it kills everyone. And then repents while basking in the aroma of burnt flesh. Does this make any sense?

All good questions.

If someone just feels compelled to go with the goddidit thingy then last Tuesdayism makes a hell of a lot more sense than Christianity. It offers absolutely no demonstrably absurd claims. Well there is still that all powerful god claim but it isn't demonstrably wrong.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

1. Where did all this water come from and how was it delivered to Earth?

Above and below the Earth. Genesis 1 describes a watery mess that god creates a bubble in and we have Earth.

2. How did a wooden boat survive a storm event of this magnitude?

You mean the boat that was designed by God? God gave Noah a leaflet with a couple specifications. It couldn't possibly fail.

3. How were the animals rounded up from different continents and transported to the ark and back to their native lands?

One continent. Earth doesn't split up until Peleg.

4. Why did none of the human civilizations of the time notice they had all been buried in tens of thousands of feet of water?

Or more importantly, how have we not found any evidence of the entire population drowning to death at the same time, but regardless... God did it.

5. How did a small handful of individuals, Noah's descendants, repopulate the planet in a matter of years and adopt all the languages, cultures, traditions and phenotype characteristics of the people who were alive prior to the flood?

Evolution is a lie, except when super fast Evolution benefits the argument. Though language came about when God freaked over the whole tower thing.

6. Why did a catastrophic flood of this magnitude leave no trace in the geological record, when a considerably smaller extinction event from 65 million years ago (K-T Boundary) left such obvious evidence all over the planet?

But there is a footnote in a Geology text book, when taken out of context, says there is evidence.

7. Why did the extreme bottleneck created by such a global extinction event in all living things not show up in the genomes of things alive today.

We can't know all the answers, and my faith makes me all glowy inside.

 

[Derec]

If tectonic plates were moving at 5mph a few thousand years ago, then the Law of Conservation of Energy, combined with their current speed, implies that they released enough heat when slowing down to melt the entire crust, boil the oceans, and kill all life on Earth.

I suspect that this wouldn't have gone entirely unnoticed.

Noah had some conservation of energy compensators on board. That was common antediluvian technology, now long since forgotten, because Noah wasn't an engineer, just a viticulturist.

See, I can make up BS too.

Seriously though, that number is something like a billion times the actual (or present as YECers claim) speed. You can't just handwave this away. How would it even work? Presently the pieces of crust move because of convection currents in the mantle. You'd have to speed up those accordingly. Then how about the new crust cooling and old crust under subduction zones melting. The movement is way too fast for these processes to catch up - it would be a mess in real world.