DeBlasio thinks basing admissions on merit is "segregation" and that random chance is better

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, no, that's not the only thing. I think you're conflating cause and effect.

Any elite school can become a remedial school if you swap out the student population.

Any remedial school can become an elite school if you swap out the programming, staffing and expectations.

You'll get a lot farther by swapping out the parents and the community.

Most of the teachers know how to do better, they're just teaching at the level that matches the students they get.

 

[Trausti]

Well, no, that's not the only thing. I think you're conflating cause and effect.

Any elite school can become a remedial school if you swap out the student population.

Any remedial school can become an elite school if you swap out the programming, staffing and expectations.

So you blame the teachers? I had the experience growing up going to a couple bad schools. The teachers were just as passionate about teaching as elsewhere. But if the students don’t care . . .

 

[Toni]

Any remedial school can become an elite school if you swap out the programming, staffing and expectations.

You'll get a lot farther by swapping out the parents and the community.

Most of the teachers know how to do better, they're just teaching at the level that matches the students they get.

Unfortunately too many teachers teach to the perceived ability of their students. Not their actual ability or their potential ability.

 

[Toni]

Any remedial school can become an elite school if you swap out the programming, staffing and expectations.

So you blame the teachers? I had the experience growing up going to a couple bad schools. The teachers were just as passionate about teaching as elsewhere. But if the students don’t care . . .

I blame some of the teachers but moreover, the school culture which starts at the school board and administration. They set the tone. I’ve watched it in my own kids’ schools and in my schools as well—And saw the effects of my husband’s school culture. Even in first grade I noticed that some students were treated better than others, that some were treated as smarter than others—sometimes erroneously. I was asked to help some of my classmates catch up in math and reading. One kid was just an asshole and a rather entitled one, too. The
Another kid, it turned out, was really bright but the teacher didn’t like him and he got blamed for stuff he didn’t do—-and I got in trouble for pointing out he could not have done what he was blamed for doing. Some teachers are wonderful! I am forever grateful to teachers who encouraged me in math and science when those were not areas that girls were seen as being ‘good’ in. I will never forget a teacher who sent one child to the nurses office so that he could properly bathe and have fresh clothing and sternly told us to never, ever look down on him because he could not help that his family did not take proper care of him. Or the teacher who stood by and allowed a boy to ridicule a girl who was slightly developmentally delayed, saying nothing to stop the abuse. As an adult I’ve heard teachers use racially derogatory terms for certain students and teachers who went far out of their way to encourage children who did not get encouragement at home. As a college student I worked in a middle school science classroom for a semester and saw kids who blossomed with a little encouragement coupled with a little tough love—and one was unreachable and whose face still haunts me. A couple of this middle school kids I saw a few years later. One girl laughed and told me thanks a lot. Now my parents and teachers expect me to get As. She really looked proud of herself as she laughed about how mean I had been to make her work instead of goofing off. Yeah, I think teachers can make a huge difference. But overall—I’ve watched administration set policies, cancel classes and ignore bullying that really drove the entire school down.

Not every student will want to go to college but so what? They still need to be able to read, to write coherently, to do math, to understand how science works, how their government works.

 

[Trausti]

Any remedial school can become an elite school if you swap out the programming, staffing and expectations.

So you blame the teachers? I had the experience growing up going to a couple bad schools. The teachers were just as passionate about teaching as elsewhere. But if the students don’t care . . .

I blame some of the teachers but moreover, the school culture which starts at the school board and administration. They set the tone. I’ve watched it in my own kids’ schools and in my schools as well—And saw the effects of my husband’s school culture. Even in first grade I noticed that some students were treated better than others, that some were treated as smarter than others—sometimes erroneously. I was asked to help some of my classmates catch up in math and reading. One kid was just an asshole and a rather entitled one, too. The
Another kid, it turned out, was really bright but the teacher didn’t like him and he got blamed for stuff he didn’t do—-and I got in trouble for pointing out he could not have done what he was blamed for doing. Some teachers are wonderful! I am forever grateful to teachers who encouraged me in math and science when those were not areas that girls were seen as being ‘good’ in. I will never forget a teacher who sent one child to the nurses office so that he could properly bathe and have fresh clothing and sternly told us to never, ever look down on him because he could not help that his family did not take proper care of him. Or the teacher who stood by and allowed a boy to ridicule a girl who was slightly developmentally delayed, saying nothing to stop the abuse. As an adult I’ve heard teachers use racially derogatory terms for certain students and teachers who went far out of their way to encourage children who did not get encouragement at home. As a college student I worked in a middle school science classroom for a semester and saw kids who blossomed with a little encouragement coupled with a little tough love—and one was unreachable and whose face still haunts me. A couple of this middle school kids I saw a few years later. One girl laughed and told me thanks a lot. Now my parents and teachers expect me to get As. She really looked proud of herself as she laughed about how mean I had been to make her work instead of goofing off. Yeah, I think teachers can make a huge difference. But overall—I’ve watched administration set policies, cancel classes and ignore bullying that really drove the entire school down.

Not every student will want to go to college but so what? They still need to be able to read, to write coherently, to do math, to understand how science works, how their government works.

This is not in controversy. Society is better off if children are taught the basics. But children are not of equal academic ability, regardless of the school environment. Nature is a bitch.

Genes and family are biggest predictor of academic success, study suggests

 

[Trausti]

What the heck, Loren? You're ready to write off kids at age 11?


No, it's the result of poor schools. And of schools not recognizing talent and ability. Often because of the color of a kid's skin or his parent's profession or his address.

Mediocre students can be taught to excel, students who are behind can be brought up to grade level and beyond.

Sometimes, but usually not. Whatever made them get behind usually persists. Putting them in good schools provides no benefit.

Bullshit

No one, least of all me, is talking about holding any student back so that those are behind can catch up.

No, you're talking fantasy. In the real world you hold back the gifted students by mixing them with the ones who are behind.

Bullshit, Loren.

Providing good schools to all students is NOT mixing gifted students with those who are behind. What is wrong with you that you think that there is only a small number of elite students who 'deserve' good schools? What is wrong with you that you think that a child's potential is already obvious and unchangeable at age 11?

The child's potential is pretty much fixed well before age 11--it's based in the family and the community, not the schools. Putting the lesser students in the more advanced classes provides no benefit.

It's probably a lot earlier than that. Pretty well established that adopted children take after their biological parents (and not their adopted parents) behaviorally and cognitively; though adoptive parents can provide a stable home. But if the adoptive family environment has little influence on inherited academic ability and behavior, why would we think the school environment could be more impactful?

 

[laughing dog]

I blame some of the teachers but moreover, the school culture which starts at the school board and administration. They set the tone. I’ve watched it in my own kids’ schools and in my schools as well—And saw the effects of my husband’s school culture. Even in first grade I noticed that some students were treated better than others, that some were treated as smarter than others—sometimes erroneously. I was asked to help some of my classmates catch up in math and reading. One kid was just an asshole and a rather entitled one, too. The
Another kid, it turned out, was really bright but the teacher didn’t like him and he got blamed for stuff he didn’t do—-and I got in trouble for pointing out he could not have done what he was blamed for doing. Some teachers are wonderful! I am forever grateful to teachers who encouraged me in math and science when those were not areas that girls were seen as being ‘good’ in. I will never forget a teacher who sent one child to the nurses office so that he could properly bathe and have fresh clothing and sternly told us to never, ever look down on him because he could not help that his family did not take proper care of him. Or the teacher who stood by and allowed a boy to ridicule a girl who was slightly developmentally delayed, saying nothing to stop the abuse. As an adult I’ve heard teachers use racially derogatory terms for certain students and teachers who went far out of their way to encourage children who did not get encouragement at home. As a college student I worked in a middle school science classroom for a semester and saw kids who blossomed with a little encouragement coupled with a little tough love—and one was unreachable and whose face still haunts me. A couple of this middle school kids I saw a few years later. One girl laughed and told me thanks a lot. Now my parents and teachers expect me to get As. She really looked proud of herself as she laughed about how mean I had been to make her work instead of goofing off. Yeah, I think teachers can make a huge difference. But overall—I’ve watched administration set policies, cancel classes and ignore bullying that really drove the entire school down.

Not every student will want to go to college but so what? They still need to be able to read, to write coherently, to do math, to understand how science works, how their government works.

This is not in controversy. Society is better off if children are taught the basics. But children are not of equal academic ability, regardless of the school environment. Nature is a bitch.

Genes and family are biggest predictor of academic success, study suggests

LOL - Academic success in that study is about getting to university. Which has fuck all to do with getting children the best education for them.

 

[Trausti]

I blame some of the teachers but moreover, the school culture which starts at the school board and administration. They set the tone. I’ve watched it in my own kids’ schools and in my schools as well—And saw the effects of my husband’s school culture. Even in first grade I noticed that some students were treated better than others, that some were treated as smarter than others—sometimes erroneously. I was asked to help some of my classmates catch up in math and reading. One kid was just an asshole and a rather entitled one, too. The
Another kid, it turned out, was really bright but the teacher didn’t like him and he got blamed for stuff he didn’t do—-and I got in trouble for pointing out he could not have done what he was blamed for doing. Some teachers are wonderful! I am forever grateful to teachers who encouraged me in math and science when those were not areas that girls were seen as being ‘good’ in. I will never forget a teacher who sent one child to the nurses office so that he could properly bathe and have fresh clothing and sternly told us to never, ever look down on him because he could not help that his family did not take proper care of him. Or the teacher who stood by and allowed a boy to ridicule a girl who was slightly developmentally delayed, saying nothing to stop the abuse. As an adult I’ve heard teachers use racially derogatory terms for certain students and teachers who went far out of their way to encourage children who did not get encouragement at home. As a college student I worked in a middle school science classroom for a semester and saw kids who blossomed with a little encouragement coupled with a little tough love—and one was unreachable and whose face still haunts me. A couple of this middle school kids I saw a few years later. One girl laughed and told me thanks a lot. Now my parents and teachers expect me to get As. She really looked proud of herself as she laughed about how mean I had been to make her work instead of goofing off. Yeah, I think teachers can make a huge difference. But overall—I’ve watched administration set policies, cancel classes and ignore bullying that really drove the entire school down.

Not every student will want to go to college but so what? They still need to be able to read, to write coherently, to do math, to understand how science works, how their government works.

This is not in controversy. Society is better off if children are taught the basics. But children are not of equal academic ability, regardless of the school environment. Nature is a bitch.

Genes and family are biggest predictor of academic success, study suggests

LOL - Academic success in that study is about getting to university. Which has fuck all to do with getting children the best education for them.

FFS. No one is saying that we not give all children educational opportunity.

 

[laughing dog]

LOL - Academic success in that study is about getting to university. Which has fuck all to do with getting children the best education for them.

FFS. No one is saying that we not give all children educational opportunity.

Oh no, just that the "genetic inferior" are given a less equal opportunity. Can't let those muggles drag down the superior ones. Oh noes.

 

[Trausti]

LOL - Academic success in that study is about getting to university. Which has fuck all to do with getting children the best education for them.

FFS. No one is saying that we not give all children educational opportunity.

Oh no, just that the "genetic inferior" are given a less equal opportunity. Can't let those muggles drag down the superior ones. Oh noes.

Wut? Why would you place a child in a school or class that is beyond their academic ability? That doesn't make any sense. Do you not care if they fail?

 

[Toni]

What the heck, Loren? You're ready to write off kids at age 11?


No, it's the result of poor schools. And of schools not recognizing talent and ability. Often because of the color of a kid's skin or his parent's profession or his address.

Sometimes, but usually not. Whatever made them get behind usually persists. Putting them in good schools provides no benefit.

Bullshit

No one, least of all me, is talking about holding any student back so that those are behind can catch up.

No, you're talking fantasy. In the real world you hold back the gifted students by mixing them with the ones who are behind.

Bullshit, Loren.

Providing good schools to all students is NOT mixing gifted students with those who are behind. What is wrong with you that you think that there is only a small number of elite students who 'deserve' good schools? What is wrong with you that you think that a child's potential is already obvious and unchangeable at age 11?

The child's potential is pretty much fixed well before age 11--it's based in the family and the community, not the schools. Putting the lesser students in the more advanced classes provides no benefit.

It's probably a lot earlier than that. Pretty well established that adopted children take after their biological parents (and not their adopted parents) behaviorally and cognitively; though adoptive parents can provide a stable home. But if the adoptive family environment has little influence on inherited academic ability and behavior, why would we think the school environment could be more impactful?

Then it is a fucking miracle that my siblings and I ever managed to graduate high school much less go on to excel in stem based university programs, be national merit scholars, earn advanced and professional degrees. Same thing for any of the kids we went to high school with. None of us had money. Most of us did not have parents who went to college. Somehow we managed to do ok anyway.

FFS you’ve never raised kids, and probably haven’t set foot in any school in the last 40 years. Your eugenics based philosophy would fit right in with the Third Reich.

 

[laughing dog]

Oh no, just that the "genetic inferior" are given a less equal opportunity. Can't let those muggles drag down the superior ones. Oh noes.

Wut? Why would you place a child in a school or class that is beyond their academic ability? That doesn't make any sense. Do you not care if they fail?

Well, it makes as much sense as your responses, since no one talking about placing a child in a class or school beyond their academic ability.

Opening up MIDDLE SCHOOL to random assignments does not mean that any selected student will be placed in classes beyond their abilities unless you assume that the school staff is incapable of setting up the curriculum to suit their students.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Any remedial school can become an elite school if you swap out the programming, staffing and expectations.

So you blame the teachers? I had the experience growing up going to a couple bad schools. The teachers were just as passionate about teaching as elsewhere. But if the students don’t care . . .

Leftist thought 101: The fault lies with the side with the power.

compared to

Rightist thought 101: The side with the power is right.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Any remedial school can become an elite school if you swap out the programming, staffing and expectations.

You'll get a lot farther by swapping out the parents and the community.

Most of the teachers know how to do better, they're just teaching at the level that matches the students they get.

Unfortunately too many teachers teach to the perceived ability of their students. Not their actual ability or their potential ability.

And what evidence do you have that their perceptions are wrong to any substantial degree?

 

[ronburgundy]

Note that the DeBlasio is merely eliminating segregating students into completely separate schools, which does not mean there cannot still be "tracked" classes within a school where students a different achievement levels can take more or less demanding / fast paced courses within specific subjects where that makes sense (reading, math). Separate schools entirely is unnecessary for tracking and introduces more problems and opportunities for inequalities in resources.

 

[Toni]

Unfortunately too many teachers teach to the perceived ability of their students. Not their actual ability or their potential ability.

And what evidence do you have that their perceptions are wrong to any substantial degree?

It's Christmas eve and I have a shit ton of stuff to do so I don't have time to google for you but in fact, there have been studies published that demonstrate that teachers tend to treat students according to information or 'information' they've been given about them. Teachers who have been erroneously told that their class was high ability taught their students as though they were exceptional--and the students benefited tremendously. That's one example.

Here's an easy one:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...pectations-can-influence-how-students-perform

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095947521930177X

 

[ruby sparks]

It's commonly claimed the white schools get more money, but it's more that white schools can spend more money on education rather than security and they have fewer troublemakers.

I am sceptical of that claim, because I have read that schools in predominantly white areas in the USA do get more money per student, and vice versa for schools in predominantly black areas. Do you have evidence that this is false?

 

[Trausti]

It's commonly claimed the white schools get more money, but it's more that white schools can spend more money on education rather than security and they have fewer troublemakers.

I am sceptical of that claim, because I have read that schools in predominantly white areas in the USA do get more money per student, and vice versa for schools in predominantly black areas. Do you have evidence that this is false?

Spending on DC public schools is nearly double the national average per student. What are the results?

 

[Toni]

It's commonly claimed the white schools get more money, but it's more that white schools can spend more money on education rather than security and they have fewer troublemakers.

I am sceptical of that claim, because I have read that schools in predominantly white areas in the USA do get more money per student, and vice versa for schools in predominantly black areas. Do you have evidence that this is false?

Spending on DC public schools is nearly double the national average per student. What are the results?

The following are the states (and DC) which spent the most per student:

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2020/school-system-finances.html

New York ($24,040), the District of Columbia ($22,759), Connecticut ($20,635), New Jersey ($20,021) and Vermont ($19,340) spent the most per pupil in FY 2018.

and:

Of the 100 largest (based on enrollment) U.S. public school systems, the five that spent the most per pupil in FY 2018 were New York City School District in New York ($26,588); Boston City Schools in Massachusetts ($24,177); Atlanta Public School District in Georgia ($16,402); Montgomery County School District in Maryland ($16,005); and Baltimore City Schools in Maryland ($15,793

 

[Trausti]

Spending on DC public schools is nearly double the national average per student. What are the results?

The following are the states (and DC) which spent the most per student:

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2020/school-system-finances.html

New York ($24,040), the District of Columbia ($22,759), Connecticut ($20,635), New Jersey ($20,021) and Vermont ($19,340) spent the most per pupil in FY 2018.

and:

Of the 100 largest (based on enrollment) U.S. public school systems, the five that spent the most per pupil in FY 2018 were New York City School District in New York ($26,588); Boston City Schools in Massachusetts ($24,177); Atlanta Public School District in Georgia ($16,402); Montgomery County School District in Maryland ($16,005); and Baltimore City Schools in Maryland ($15,793

What are the results of all that spending? Do DC and NYC outperform lesser funded school districts on the NAEP?