DeBlasio thinks basing admissions on merit is "segregation" and that random chance is better

[laughing dog]

The following are the states (and DC) which spent the most per student:

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2020/school-system-finances.html


and:

Of the 100 largest (based on enrollment) U.S. public school systems, the five that spent the most per pupil in FY 2018 were New York City School District in New York ($26,588); Boston City Schools in Massachusetts ($24,177); Atlanta Public School District in Georgia ($16,402); Montgomery County School District in Maryland ($16,005); and Baltimore City Schools in Maryland ($15,793

What are the results of all that spending? Do DC and NYC outperform lesser funded school districts on the NAEP?

Education funding and educational spending are 2 different categories. For example, my school district spends approximately 25% of its funding on transportation of students to and from public and private (by Mn law) schools. That is clearly not directly tied to educational achievement.

So, any worthwhile comparison would have to carve out such spending and adjust for differences in cost of living.

 

[Trausti]

What are the results of all that spending? Do DC and NYC outperform lesser funded school districts on the NAEP?

Education funding and educational spending are 2 different categories. For example, my school district spends approximately 25% of its funding on transportation of students to and from public and private (by Mn law) schools. That is clearly not directly tied to educational achievement.

So, any worthwhile comparison would have to carve out such spending and adjust for differences in cost of living.

I grant you that there are costs beyond instruction; a lot wasted on useless administrators and such. I challenge the notion that more money gives better outcomes. I mean, more money is of course good for administrator salaries and pensions. But for student achievement? Probably no relationship.

 

[laughing dog]

What are the results of all that spending? Do DC and NYC outperform lesser funded school districts on the NAEP?

Education funding and educational spending are 2 different categories. For example, my school district spends approximately 25% of its funding on transportation of students to and from public and private (by Mn law) schools. That is clearly not directly tied to educational achievement.

So, any worthwhile comparison would have to carve out such spending and adjust for differences in cost of living.

I grant you that there are costs beyond instruction; a lot wasted on useless administrators and such. I challenge the notion that more money gives better outcomes. I mean, more money is of course good for administrator salaries and pensions. But for student achievement? Probably no relationship.

There I disagree. For example, special needs or special education is much more expensive than "regular" education. Districts with a high proportion of special needs children either spend more per child or siphon off scarce resources from "regular" education.

I would think that an increase in spending on science equipment etc.... would help student achievement in any school district with decent science teachers.

As to "useless" administrators, in some states, they are the result of state mandates or laws.

 

[Trausti]

I grant you that there are costs beyond instruction; a lot wasted on useless administrators and such. I challenge the notion that more money gives better outcomes. I mean, more money is of course good for administrator salaries and pensions. But for student achievement? Probably no relationship.

There I disagree. For example, special needs or special education is much more expensive than "regular" education. Districts with a high proportion of special needs children either spend more per child or siphon off scarce resources from "regular" education.

I would think that an increase in spending on science equipment etc.... would help student achievement in any school district with decent science teachers.

As to "useless" administrators, in some states, they are the result of state mandates or laws.

Are there examples of school districts increasing student achievement after increased funding? I’m with you that there are non-instructional costs. I’m unconvinced that funding differences are the cause of achievement gaps.

 

[Toni]

The following are the states (and DC) which spent the most per student:

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2020/school-system-finances.html


and:

Of the 100 largest (based on enrollment) U.S. public school systems, the five that spent the most per pupil in FY 2018 were New York City School District in New York ($26,588); Boston City Schools in Massachusetts ($24,177); Atlanta Public School District in Georgia ($16,402); Montgomery County School District in Maryland ($16,005); and Baltimore City Schools in Maryland ($15,793

What are the results of all that spending? Do DC and NYC outperform lesser funded school districts on the NAEP?

Goggle it yourself.

 

[Toni]

I grant you that there are costs beyond instruction; a lot wasted on useless administrators and such. I challenge the notion that more money gives better outcomes. I mean, more money is of course good for administrator salaries and pensions. But for student achievement? Probably no relationship.

There I disagree. For example, special needs or special education is much more expensive than "regular" education. Districts with a high proportion of special needs children either spend more per child or siphon off scarce resources from "regular" education.

I would think that an increase in spending on science equipment etc.... would help student achievement in any school district with decent science teachers.

As to "useless" administrators, in some states, they are the result of state mandates or laws.

Are there examples of school districts increasing student achievement after increased funding? I’m with you that there are non-instructional costs. I’m unconvinced that funding differences are the cause of achievement gaps.

How much investigation/research have you done?

 

[Toni]

Unfortunately too many teachers teach to the perceived ability of their students. Not their actual ability or their potential ability.

And what evidence do you have that their perceptions are wrong to any substantial degree?

If you bothered to read my earlier post, you'd see a link to research that demonstrates just exactly that.

 

[ruby sparks]

It's commonly claimed the white schools get more money, but it's more that white schools can spend more money on education rather than security and they have fewer troublemakers.

I am sceptical of that claim, because I have read that schools in predominantly white areas in the USA do get more money per student, and vice versa for schools in predominantly black areas. Do you have evidence that this is false?

Spending on DC public schools is nearly double the national average per student. What are the results?

On a separate note, apparently, do you have an answer to my question? Loren hasn't got back to me yet.

 

[Trausti]

What are the results of all that spending? Do DC and NYC outperform lesser funded school districts on the NAEP?

Goggle it yourself.

Yeah, I know the answer.

 

[Trausti]

Are there examples of school districts increasing student achievement after increased funding? I’m with you that there are non-instructional costs. I’m unconvinced that funding differences are the cause of achievement gaps.

How much investigation/research have you done?

Enough to know the answer.

 

[Trausti]

Spending on DC public schools is nearly double the national average per student. What are the results?

On a separate note, apparently, do you have an answer to my question? Loren hasn't got back to me yet.

DC and NYC are majority non-White and spend the most per student.

 

[laughing dog]

What are the results of all that spending? Do DC and NYC outperform lesser funded school districts on the NAEP?

Goggle it yourself.

Yeah, I know the answer.

You may have an answer, but it may not be based on good data.

 

[Trausti]

Yeah, I know the answer.

You may have an answer, but it may not be based on good data.

The history of Missouri v. Jenkins and the $2B wasted in the 1980s is instructive. Also, the Naperville, IL, school district spends >$10,000 less per student than NYC and DC but is one of the best in the country.

 

[Toni]

Yeah, I know the answer.

You may have an answer, but it may not be based on good data.

He knows the answer. No need to confuse him with facts. Or data.

 

[Toni]

Yeah, I know the answer.

You may have an answer, but it may not be based on good data.

The history of Missouri v. Jenkins and the $2B wasted in the 1980s is instructive. Also, the Naperville, IL, school district spends >$10,000 less per student than NYC and DC but is one of the best in the country.

NYC certainly has some of the highest ranked public schools in the nation. I haven't run across Naperville IL as being high ranked, even within IL.

But there are so many different rankings using all sorts of criteria.

I personally find US News and World Report irritating because even when ranking high schools, it does not use the same criteria. But it seems that at least one DC school significantly outranks Naperville, which seems to be ranked #30 for IL:


https://www.usnews.com/education/be...schools/school-without-walls-high-school-4648

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/illinois/districts/naperville-cusd-203-112843

You can see that they don't use the same measures to rank the two schools, yet it's pretty clear that the DC school outperforms Naperville.

 

[ruby sparks]

Spending on DC public schools is nearly double the national average per student. What are the results?

On a separate note, apparently, do you have an answer to my question? Loren hasn't got back to me yet.

DC and NYC are majority non-White and spend the most per student.

No, sorry, as I already said, I wondered if you had an answer to my question to Loren? I asked my question specifically in response to something Loren had said, because it contained a couple of claims. I essentially wanted him to back them up.

 

[fromderinside]

Mayor Shifts Admission Screens in Effort to Address Segregation in NYC Schools

Middle schools throughout the city that rely on a screening process to admit students will pause the practice for at least one year, the mayor said Friday. In its place, a lottery system will be implemented to target equal opportunity for student applicants.
That means that academic records, auditions and other assessments will no longer be used by schools to skim off the top-performing elementary school kids and segregate them from other children.

Using a lottery makes mockery of the idea of having a selective school.

Note that he is blaming the pandemic, but he has been trying to get rid of merit-based admissions long before COVID. He has just become more brazen and open about it now.

DeBlasio is truly the worst think to happen to NYC since 9/11.

Selective schooling makes a mockery of public education. Of course if you'd accept income leveling I'm willing to listen.

 

[Trausti]

DC and NYC are majority non-White and spend the most per student.

No, sorry, as I already said, I wondered if you had an answer to my question to Loren? Do you want me to use shorter words and sentences for you? I asked my question specifically in response to something Loren had said, because it contained a couple of claims. I essentially wanted him to back them up.

Dear Ruby, the last question you posted to Loren was on funding differences between majority White and Black districts.

 

[ruby sparks]

DC and NYC are majority non-White and spend the most per student.

No, sorry, as I already said, I wondered if you had an answer to my question to Loren? Do you want me to use shorter words and sentences for you? I asked my question specifically in response to something Loren had said, because it contained a couple of claims. I essentially wanted him to back them up.

Dear Ruby, the last question you posted to Loren was on funding differences between majority White and Black districts.

Yours wasn't an answer to what I asked Loren. And in any case, I was also going to be interested in the second of his claims.

Your answer might have been relevant to the question, "are there any majority non-white areas that get above average funding". I suggest you keep your answer ready until someone asks that.

You see, it could be the case that some non-white areas get more funding, within an overall picture where they get less.

As to whether or not more funding works, that's not what I'm asking. Although Loren's claims do seem to imply it would, were it not for the fact that majority non-white schools had to spend the money on other things, such as security.

 

[ronburgundy]

Are there examples of school districts increasing student achievement after increased funding? I’m with you that there are non-instructional costs. I’m unconvinced that funding differences are the cause of achievement gaps.

Yes. There is a large body of evidence that increased spending increases student achievement. In fact here are 4 research papers from just the past 18 months that combined examine effects in dozens of districts across 10 states, employing numerous control measures, such as comparing Bond measures to increase funding that just narrowly passed in some districts to those that just narrowly were defeated in other districts within the same state. And some of the studies show that increased funding has the largest positive impact on lower SES and lower performing districts and schools.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3430766

https://edworkingpapers.com/sites/default/files/ai19-25.pdf

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047272719300623?dgcid=coauthor

https://edworkingpapers.com/sites/default/files/ai19-18.pdf