Definition of Consciousness: 2nd Poll

[untermensche]

The assumption there is that you can't have agency without awareness.

Awareness requires two things. That which is aware. And that which it is aware of.

That which is aware is consciousness.

But consciousness is also that which says everyday: "I will believe this today. I will be a Republican today." It is that which chooses what it will believe at any moment. And it can freely choose to believe something else at any moment.

Why can't an evolved system that has evolved to make decisions not make them freely.

You are talking about an automated decision, not a free decision. Even if it is random. Where the Pachinko ball ends up is random and it is programed. But it is not free.

The only kind of "programming" you can talk about is human designed programming. Programming where the objective exists first.

That's just empirically false. Google 'Genetic algorithms' or just 'self programing AI'.

Those are programs invented with a goal in mind. Most likely they have nothing to do with any natural mechanism.

The computer scientists have to prove their programming applies to biological systems.

Not when they are simulating a biological connectome and working on the processes that animate it - I'd suggest you might want to take a peek at the convergence of neurobiology and neurocomputation.

Yes, working on something.

And proving nothing yet.

That is not assumed. The opposite is assumed.

I think either case cannot be assumed but needs supporting evidence.

The rational assumption minus very good evidence is human programs have nothing to do with natural systems except they were devised whole by one, like mathematics.

 

[DBT]

A decision is a selection of an option from set of realizable alternatives based on a given set of criteria. It is the criteria that determines the selection to be made. Information processing and selection of an option that meets the requirements of the criteria. This has nothing to do with freedom of will. It is decision making. Decision making is not free will.

 

[Subsymbolic]

That's an awful lot of slightly contentious definitions without very much supporting argument. Perhaps a little bit of explanation as to why anyone should accept these definitions?

 

[DBT]

That's an awful lot of slightly contentious definitions without very much supporting argument. Perhaps a little bit of explanation as to why anyone should accept these definitions?

Nothing contentious at all. Why do you choose one option over another if not on the basis of features and attributes? Perceived attributes being your criteria. Why decide to buy this car rather than that car? Criteria, this model has features that appear to be useful or appealing to you. You have a family so need sufficient space, perhaps a four door sedan meets your needs, or if you go camping, a 4x4. You can apply this process to all decisions, why you chose this house and not another, why you are attracted to this person but not that person, why you chose this profession or trade over another....

 

[untermensche]

A decision is a selection of an option from set of realizable alternatives based on a given set of criteria.

Yes. A decision is choosing between options. There are always countless options.

It is the criteria that determines the selection to be made.

Yes there are reasons a consciousness makes choices between options.

But the issue is: Are those choices forced in some way or not?

Again, why do you believe what you believe?

What forces you? You could believe anything you choose. Why did you make the choices you made?

None of these questions can even be addressed no less answered.

 

[DBT]

A decision is a selection of an option from set of realizable alternatives based on a given set of criteria.

Yes. A decision is choosing between options. There are always countless options.

Not for everyone. What may be a viable option for you may not be a viable option for me. Options exist but not all available options are available to everyone. Some only to a select few.

Yes there are reasons a consciousness makes choices between options.

But the issue is: Are those choices forced in some way or not?

Again, why do you believe what you believe?

What forces you? You could believe anything you choose. Why did you make the choices you made?

None of these questions can even be addressed no less answered.

It is not consciousness that makes decisions. It is a brain that makes decisions, partly unconsciously and partly through the medium of consciousness, but still the brain and the brain alone as the agent of decision making.

It need not be forced...it is neural architecture and criteria (experience, capacity, etc) that determines decisions that are made. If there is an opening for a Mathematician being advertised, for example, that option is open for someone who is qualified for that position. a qualified Mathematician, It's not an option that's available to everyone.

 

[Speakpigeon]

That's an awful lot of slightly contentious definitions without very much supporting argument. Perhaps a little bit of explanation as to why anyone should accept these definitions?

I already suggested people argued their views, or peddle their wares, or even rephrased their proposal. Some have done so. The idea was to get the "none of the above" and "don't know" votes down as much as possible.

More generally, you have to assume that we all broadly understand the basic terminology used and the views submitted as being part of larger cultural currents we're all more or less familiar with.

At the extreme, you can try to challenge particular views and ask for some kind of justification. Or express specific criticisms.
EB

 

[untermensche]

Not for everyone. What may be a viable option for you may not be a viable option for me. Options exist but not all available options are available to everyone. Some only to a select few.

Yes there are reasons a consciousness makes choices between options.

But the issue is: Are those choices forced in some way or not?

Again, why do you believe what you believe?

What forces you? You could believe anything you choose. Why did you make the choices you made?

None of these questions can even be addressed no less answered.

It is not consciousness that makes decisions....

It most certainly is.

There is no evidence the brain knows the difference between a Republican or a Democrat.

There is a lot of evidence a product of brain activity, human consciousness, does.

The product knows, not the brain itself. The brain itself knows nothing. That is why the body does not move around purposefully when the consciousness is diminished, as in severe dementia. The body is fine. The consciousness is severely damaged. And the brain does not take over and carry out daily functions. It needs the consciousness to do that.

 

[Subsymbolic]

There is no evidence the brain knows the difference between a Republican or a Democrat.

I'd agree with that, but almost certainly for different reasons.

There is a lot of evidence a product of brain activity, human consciousness, does.

Well, there's behavioural evidence but beyond that? And what if we are not dualist about it and simply say that consciousness is certain sorts of brain activity and that other sorts tend to respond sensibly as a result of evolution and training.

The product knows, not the brain itself.

Unless the product is at least just some of the brain.

The brain itself knows nothing. That is why the body does not move around purposefully when the consciousness is diminished, as in severe dementia.

Are you asserting that dementia is caused by diminished consciousness? First, I thought it was a illness of the brain and second, I'm pretty certain it's memory that takes the hit. Now if you want to tell me a story about binding I'm all ears but I can't see how else you are even going to be able ttoclaim diminished consciousness is a consequence of dementia. I mean, how would you tell?

The body is fine.

Sure, apart from the brain, that's so badly damaged that even gross scanning can detect the damage.

The consciousness is severely damaged. And the brain does not take over and carry out daily functions. It needs the consciousness to do that.

I'm sure you are not intending to be putting forward a substance dualist position, but I don't know how else to read this.

 

[untermensche]

I am a duelist.

The brain and consciousness are two distinct things.

They are not the same thing.

 

[bilby]

I am a duelist.

Indeed you are.

The brain and consciousness are two distinct things.

They are not the same thing.

Ah, so you are also a dualist. That's perhaps even more annoying and stupid.

 

[untermensche]

I am a duelist.

Indeed you are.

The brain and consciousness are two distinct things.

They are not the same thing.

Ah, so you are also a dualist. That's perhaps even more annoying and stupid.

You are too stupid to even have an opinion on the matter.

They told you in second grade spelling was very important.

And you have not advanced beyond it.

 

[bilby]

Indeed you are.Ah, so you are also a dualist. That's perhaps even more annoying and stupid.

You are too stupid to even have an opinion on the matter.

They told you in second grade spelling was very important.

And you have not advanced beyond it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

 

[untermensche]

Indeed you are.Ah, so you are also a dualist. That's perhaps even more annoying and stupid.

You are too stupid to even have an opinion on the matter.

They told you in second grade spelling was very important.

And you have not advanced beyond it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Yes.

You have no opinion on consciousness. Just some ignorant stupidity about me.

You are somehow fixated on me and unable to express anything of substance beyond your stupid opinion of someone clearly your superior.

Once again.

The brain and consciousness are not the same thing.

The brain is a means. Consciousness is the end. The brain exists to serve consciousness and needs consciousness.

 

[bilby]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Yes.

You have no opinion on consciousness. Just some ignorant stupidity about me.

You are somehow fixated on me and unable to express anything of substance beyond your stupid opinion of someone clearly your superior.

Once again.

The brain and consciousness are not the same thing.

The brain is a means. Consciousness is the end. The brain exists to serve consciousness and needs consciousness.

 

[DBT]

Well that didn't take long to degenerate into mud slinging.

 

[untermensche]

Well that didn't take long to degenerate into mud slinging.

Idiotic pests are hard to control.

They do not listen or learn.

They have no rational arguments or thoughtful opinions.

Again.

You have the brain, a bunch of cells, and you have the consciousness, whatever it is made of.

Consciousness is the thing that orders the brain to move the arm.

Two different entities.

 

[ruby sparks]

I move my arms in my sleep. Just sayin'.

 

[untermensche]

I move my arms in my sleep. Just sayin'.

There is reflexive movement, not very productive, good enough for rolling over, and purposeful movement, very productive, good enough to survive.

We remember dreams too.

It means we are still there experiencing and perhaps guiding to some degree when asleep.

 

[ruby sparks]

I move my arms in my sleep. Just sayin'.

There is reflexive movement, not very productive, good enough for rolling over, and purposeful movement, very productive, good enough to survive.

We remember dreams too.

It means we are still there experiencing and perhaps guiding to some degree when asleep.

I'd say it was productive of me staying asleep. As is jumping out of the way of an oncoming truck productive for survival. If I waited for conscious instructions on that, I probably wouldn't be here to tell you about it.

Also, check these out:

"...most and possibly all human behavior emerges from a combination of conscious and unconscious processes."

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/dc9b/20754916271f761446556f497301be79a155.pdf

"...the direct execution of behavior is probably the result of unconscious and automatic processes,
but in most cases, consciousness may have some say in the matter."

http://acmelab.yale.edu/sites/defau...ve_understanding_of_human_life_and_action.pdf