Dem Post Mortem

[Harry Bosch]

Also, there is no such thing as an “islamoleftist.” This is a made-up word by right-wing hate media to stir up simple-minded people against both leftists and Muslims. Not surprisingly, you took the bait.

I actually think the word does have a reasonable meaning: the crowd on the left that always sides with Muslims and against Jews.

Speaking for myself — and I am sure this is true for a great many and probably most on the so-called left — the opposition to Israel with respect to Gaza has nothing to do with Muslims and Jews per se. It has to do with opposing the Israeli government’s forced displacement, ethnic cleansing and genocide against Gazan citizens. Ours is not support for Hamas, whose actions I and others have repeatedly condemned. And if it were a Muslim-led government doing the same thing to a Jewish population, I and a great many others would oppose the actions of the Muslim government and support the Jewish population. In the same way I and others oppose the Russian slaughter in Ukraine, which has nothing at all to do with Jews or Muslims. All of this has to do with opposing violence and oppression in any form.

Israel and its supporters just love to play the anti-semite card against those on the left who oppose Israeli actions in Gaza, and it is a despicable well-poisoning tactic. The actual anti-semites, for that matter, are the evangelical Christians who support Israel’s actions in Gaza, because they think the war is preparatory to the Second Coming, at which time all the Jews will be required to convert to Christianity or go to hell. It does not get any more anti-semitic than that.

That there may be some on the so-called left who are anti-semitic may be true, but I suggest it is a small minority. That some on the left voiced Hamas-espoused sentiments has mostly to do, I suspect, with frustration and anger at Israel and not authentic hatred of Jews.

Fair enough. I don't disagree with all your post. However, would you at least be open that there is a little double standard when it comes to Israel. I guaranty you that if Mexico had attacked and killed civilians in Texas and held hundreds, we'd be smashing the shit out of them. Fox example, the UN estimated that the US attack on Iran killed 68 civilians. Where is the outrage on this attack? Would you agree at least with me that Israel has a greater. Second example is Russia. While outrage against Russia is growing; it's not nearly at the same level as the outrage against Israel. Again, Hamas directly attacked Israel. Ukraine did not directly attack Russia. Iran did not directly attack the US. I agree that Neta has gone too far. I do favor the two state solution. I hate the settlers. But I do think that there is a double standard against Israel.

I can only speak for myself, but I think I speak for many others.

First, the Mexico analogy is misguided. Gaza is equivalent to Mexico in the analogy, and Gaza did not attack Israel. Hamas did. So the proper analogy would be if Mexican terrorists slipped across the border, attacked Americans and took hostages. In that case, for the U.S. launch a massive ground invasion of Mexico, displace and starve and ethnically cleanse its people, would be wholly unacceptable, the very epitome of the sanitized rhetoric of “disproportionate response.”

To unpack the Mexico analogy further, the U.S. stole what today is the entire American southwest, including what is today California, from Mexico in a war launched by President James K. Polk in 1846 that was properly opposed by many, including then-Rep. Abraham Lincoln from Illinois. As Gore Vidal said back in the ‘80s, Mexicans who enter the U.S. either legally or illegally are merely sensibly reclaiming what is rightfully theirs. This holds true today.

Let’s also recall that no matter what gloss anyone puts on it, or however noble the motive may have been, Israel basically stole the land that they occupy in the Middle East today. I do not, however, think Israel could or should go away.

I wholly condemned both the Israeli and U.S. attack on Iran.

I have wholly condemned the Russian attack on Ukraine.

So I see no double standard being employed by me or anyone who takes these positions.

You missed my point. I don't think that you have a double standard here. Yes, you condemn Russian attacks on Ukraine and US attacks on whomever. The double standard is in the rest of the world. We don't nearly see as much protests against Russia as we do against Israel. Why isn't Greta protesting Russia?

I think there has been plenty of global condemnation of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, particularly in Europe and in the U.S. government before Trump.

Is the global condemnation of Russia's invasion of Ukraine at the same level as the global condemnation against Israel today? Clearly it is not. The question is why...

 

[pood]

Is the global condemnation of Russia's invasion of Ukraine at the same level as the global condemnation against Israel today? Clearly it is not. The question is why...

But it is. The Russian invasion has been formally condemned by 143 nations. In the UN, 149 nations have called for a cease-fire in Gaza, which is not even exactly the same as condemning Israel. Both Putin and Netanyahu have warrants out for their arrests.

 

[Derec]

Gaza does not have an army and Hamas is answerable to no one in Gaza. They are terrorists.

Hamas are the de facto government of Gaza. And it was not just Hamas that attacked Israel. Gazan factions from across the ideoological spectrum, from Islamofascist "Palestinian Islamic Jihad" to Marxist-Leninist "Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine" joined Hamas in the war of aggression against Israel.
And yet the Islamoleftists condemn Israel for defending itself. Remember that there were anti-Israel protests with slogans like "resistance is justified" protests in NYC as early as 10/8/2023.

These "globalize the Intifada" people are Mamdani's constituency.
Note that he is member of Democratic Socialists of America, which tweeted this:

 

[Derec]

To unpack the Mexico analogy further, the U.S. stole what today is the entire American southwest, including what is today California, from Mexico in a war launched by President James K. Polk in 1846 that was properly opposed by many, including then-Rep. Abraham Lincoln from Illinois. As Gore Vidal said back in the ‘80s, Mexicans who enter the U.S. either legally or illegally are merely sensibly reclaiming what is rightfully theirs. This holds true today.

That's stupid. Borders have shifted due to warfare in history. Why single out gains by USA as somehow illegitimate? Should Germans try to reclaim territories they lost? Or is that only ok when "brown" people do it?

 

[Harry Bosch]

To unpack the Mexico analogy further, the U.S. stole what today is the entire American southwest, including what is today California, from Mexico in a war launched by President James K. Polk in 1846 that was properly opposed by many, including then-Rep. Abraham Lincoln from Illinois. As Gore Vidal said back in the ‘80s, Mexicans who enter the U.S. either legally or illegally are merely sensibly reclaiming what is rightfully theirs. This holds true today.

That's stupid. Borders have shifted due to warfare in history. Why single out gains by USA as somehow illegitimate? Should Germans try to reclaim territories they lost? Or is that only ok when "brown" people do it?

Well, to add, the Mexicans stole California from the Indians that inhabited before them.

 

[pood]

To unpack the Mexico analogy further, the U.S. stole what today is the entire American southwest, including what is today California, from Mexico in a war launched by President James K. Polk in 1846 that was properly opposed by many, including then-Rep. Abraham Lincoln from Illinois. As Gore Vidal said back in the ‘80s, Mexicans who enter the U.S. either legally or illegally are merely sensibly reclaiming what is rightfully theirs. This holds true today.

That's stupid. Borders have shifted due to warfare in history. Why single out gains by USA as somehow illegitimate? Should Germans try to reclaim territories they lost? Or is that only ok when "brown" people do it?

I never singled out these gains as somehow illegitimate compared to other illegitimate gains. I am simply pointing out the truth — that this land was stolen. The U.S. is not the great exceptional country that it pretends to be. It stole vast lands from Mexico, enslaved blacks, ethnically cleansed and slaughtered natives, brought in Chinese immigrants to work in a state of oppression.

I regard myself as a citizen of the world. I regard Trump, Netanyahu, Putin, the mullahs in Iran, Hamas, and so many other dictators and terror outfits as the enemy of common humanity.

 

[ZiprHead]

You missed my point. I don't think that you have a double standard here. Yes, you condemn Russian attacks on Ukraine and US attacks on whomever. The double standard is in the rest of the world. We don't nearly see as much protests against Russia as we do against Israel.

To be fair, we don't see nearly as much support for Russia here as we see for Israel.

 

[ZiprHead]

Hamas are the de facto government of Gaza.

They are dictators of Hamas.

 

[Tigers!]

You missed my point. I don't think that you have a double standard here. Yes, you condemn Russian attacks on Ukraine and US attacks on whomever. The double standard is in the rest of the world. We don't nearly see as much protests against Russia as we do against Israel.

To be fair, we don't see nearly as much support for Russia here as we see for Israel.

Take away Barbos and the posts supporting Russia -> 0

 

[Derec]

Hamas are the de facto government of Gaza.

They are dictators of Hamas.

Just because it's a dictatorial government, does not make it not a government.

 

[Derec]

I never singled out these gains as somehow illegitimate compared to other illegitimate gains.

It sure looked like you have. Or do you also support Greeks invading Turkey in order to reclaim territory? After all, if North America is "stolen land", then so is Asia Minor.
And it is also a common statement on the Left. Slogans like "nobody is illegal on stolen land" surely implies something uniquely bad about the US.

I am simply pointing out the truth — that this land was stolen.

If you call this land "stolen", then all land has been stolen at one point or another. Then the word "stolen" loses all meaning.
How this is usually used is restrictively, by pretending that somehow US sits on stolen land, but that Turkey does not. Basically, leftist ideology is that it is white Europeans who steal land, but that being "brown" makes you an innocent victim.

The U.S. is not the great exceptional country that it pretends to be. It stole vast lands from Mexico,

There are, or at least have been, many exceptionally good things about this country. But nobody is claiming that US is exceptional by not gaining territory in warfare. That's just a strawman.
As I said, the opposite is true. US is seen by the movement leftists as an exceptionally evil country that sits on "stolen land".

enslaved blacks,

True. Nobody denies that. But when you listen to anti-American and anti-Western propaganda you'd think it was only US, or US and Europe, that were responsible for black slavery. What is usually ignored is that African societies themselves participated in, and benefited from, slavery, and that the Muslim, Arab world was heavily involved in African slavery. In fact, some Arab states only outlawed slavery in the second half of the 20th century!

Which is why I find it ridiculous that many blacks in the US adopt (pseudo)Arabic names or even convert to Islam as a sign of rejection of US culture.

ethnically cleansed and slaughtered natives,

And Indians (aka Siberian-Americans if you want to get technical) have slaughtered each other for thousands of years, and have also slaughtered many settlers.

brought in Chinese immigrants to work in a state of oppression.

I thought it was mostly the State of California.

I regard myself as a citizen of the world.

What does your passport say though?

I regard Trump, Netanyahu, Putin, the mullahs in Iran, Hamas, and so many other dictators and terror outfits as the enemy of common humanity.

That is a false equivalence of the worst order.

 

[Derec]

Well, to add, the Mexicans stole California from the Indians that inhabited before them.

And those Indians stole it from other Indians and so on, all the way back to when all of them came to the Americas from Siberia.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's just a quirk of geography that that particular path is viable.

No, it's a consequence of the existence of enabling infrastructure.

Infrastructure is the lubricant of the economic engine. It defines the difference between the developed and the developing world.

And to residents of the developed world, it's about as noticable as water is to fish.

Quirk of terrain--both spots are places where the city has flowed around the terrain, leaving those two gaps connected to the wilderness area outside town. I am not aware of any bus that in the general case gets more than about 3 miles from the edge of development and it's usually 5+.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

First, the Mexico analogy is misguided. Gaza is equivalent to Mexico in the analogy, and Gaza did not attack Israel. Hamas did. So the proper analogy would be if Mexican terrorists slipped across the border, attacked Americans and took hostages. In that case, for the U.S. launch a massive ground invasion of Mexico, displace and starve and ethnically cleanse its people, would be wholly unacceptable, the very epitome of the sanitized rhetoric of “disproportionate response.”

But Hamas and Gaza are the same thing for the purposes of war.

If the government of Gaza were acting against Hamas then it would simply be criminal behavior that does not warrant military action. But it's the government of Gaza that's attacking. A war by another name.

Let’s also recall that no matter what gloss anyone puts on it, or however noble the motive may have been, Israel basically stole the land that they occupy in the Middle East today. I do not, however, think Israel could or should go away.

Note that it's the very existence of Israel that drives the war.

 

[Derec]

Speaking for myself — and I am sure this is true for a great many and probably most on the so-called left — the opposition to Israel with respect to Gaza has nothing to do with Muslims and Jews per se.

Of course it does. Why else would the right of Israel to defend itself from attacks by Gaza be questioned in the way no other country would be questioned if attacked in this way?

It has to do with opposing the Israeli government’s forced displacement, ethnic cleansing and genocide against Gazan citizens.

There is no "genocide" in Gaza. There is displacement, from areas of more active conflict to safer areas like Al Mawasi. Of course, Hamas ruins the intended humanitarian Al Mawasi zone by operating from it. As we already discussed in the Gaza thread.

Ours is not support for Hamas, whose actions I and others have repeatedly condemned.

Maybe you have not, but you are relativizing Hamas atrocities with your false equivalence between them and Israel.
And even worse, many on the left overtly support Hamas. Including the protesters in NYC who were praising "resistance" the day after the massacre by said "resistance". Those same protesters are Mamdani's core constituency.

And if it were a Muslim-led government doing the same thing to a Jewish population, I and a great many others would oppose the actions of the Muslim government and support the Jewish population. In the same way I and others oppose the Russian slaughter in Ukraine, which has nothing at all to do with Jews or Muslims. All of this has to do with opposing violence and oppression in any form.

In the case of Ukraine, you do not condemn the victim for defending itself from aggression. But in the case of Israel, you do. Why?

The actual anti-semites, for that matter, are the evangelical Christians who support Israel’s actions in Gaza, because they think the war is preparatory to the Second Coming, at which time all the Jews will be required to convert to Christianity or go to hell. It does not get any more anti-semitic than that.

No, the actual antisemites are those on the left who praise Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups. Also the ones who support the Tehran regime.

That there may be some on the so-called left who are anti-semitic may be true, but I suggest it is a small minority. That some on the left voiced Hamas-espoused sentiments has mostly to do, I suspect, with frustration and anger at Israel and not authentic hatred of Jews.

Really? You are excusing expressions of support for Hamas violence, that has been part of the anti-Israel protests since the beginning of the war, with some kind of "frustration"? Really?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas are the de facto government of Gaza.

They are dictators of Hamas.

That's not a rebuttal.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

View attachment 51199

Has Mamdani explained what he means by "Globalizing the intifada"?

I'm not sure he ever said that. Derec said he said that but I have seen no proof of it.

He did’t say it. In fact he said, “that’s not language I use.” What everyone, including the stuffy, moribund old Democratic establishment, is clutching their pearls about is that he refused to condemn the phrase, saying that it’s not the mayor’s place to police language. He called for universal human rights for all, including Palestinians and Israelis.

Sorry, but refusing to condemn calls for terrorism is not acceptable to me.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

when the pendulum has swung too far to the right, we must push leftward as hard as we can, hoping to get back to the center.

Oh, it will pass center without any help. If it doesn’t get stuck in a far right position e.g. NK.

Yes, so far.

Assuming a leftward sentiment “swing” endures, it will begin gathering potential energy to assist the next swing to the right. Any leftward pressure exerted during the period of gravity assist, eventually contributes to opposite results. A True Centrist should be asking right now “what kind of rightward pressure can I exert right now to ensure that with the inevitable coming swing to the left, the pendulum slows or ideally, stops, within the Center zone that I prefer.”

Sounds like you’re actually a semi-closeted far left radical, Swami.

But the pendulum is currently swinging right. Thus leftward pressure is appropriate. One should be opposing it as it's approaching center with the objective of bringing it to a stop at the center.

 

[Derec]

OK, I googled it. It seems that the only halal consideration for fish is that only those marine animals that have scales may be eaten. So no shellfish, eels, or marine mammals.

Among these, only eels are fish. Well, marine mammals too, if we adopt the cladistic definition of "fish". But that would render cows, lambs and chickens haram too, as they are scaleless fish if we see "fish" as a monophyletic group (or clade).

 

[Derec]

But the pendulum is currently swinging right. Thus leftward pressure is appropriate. One should be opposing it as it's approaching center with the objective of bringing it to a stop at the center.

That's where the metaphor breaks down I think.
In a physical pendulum, applying force in the opposite direction during a swing (as opposed to at the top of the swing) would indeed reduce amplitude. I do not think that this applies to the political pendulum. We have seen it during the recent leftward lurch of the Democratic Party. Electing a bunch of Squaddies in 2018-2022, among other things, did nothing to bring the pendulum to rest in the center. On the contrary, it merely emboldened MAGA more.