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Dem Post Mortem

Of course not! To win a national election in this ignorant racist commie-hating country, we have to appeal to the commie-haters. Yes, there are DemSocs winning elections. They are NOT winning in the many districts where ignorant commie-haters are a majority.
"We" will never appeal to ignorant racist commie-haters. No matter how much we concede to them. They want our deaths, not our vague and inconsistent support. It doesn't matter what someone says they are "considering thinking about", they simply do not want gay Mexican urban planners in office, and no amount of "signaling" that we are "listening to their concerns" is going to make a queer foreigner from the city more attractive to their sensibilities than a Nazi ditz from an affluent rural suburb.
Wrong. There are different degrees of ignorance, racism, and commie-hating. There were MANY people from America's huge "redneck" Middle who aren't completely racist (Obama was elected twice), and who watch CNN regularly, and who DID have severe misgivings about the pussy-grabbing fraudster; but who DID choose Trump as (what they thought to be) the lesser of two evils.

Reducing these many millions of slightly racist centrists from America's heartland to caricatures -- or calling them "deplorables" -- is a good way to turn them off, and make them believe that Trump, despite his many faults that they are well aware of, might be "the lesser of two evils."

More succinctly, the anger and bitterness that you and Jarhyn represent is part of the PROBLEM and NOT part of the solution.
Anyone who has, seven years into the madness, looked at Trump and concluded that he is the lesser of two evils, will not be lightly dissuaded of that opinion. Especially not by the means the Democratic Party is accustomed to using, the vague and
whiffy language of "honoring perspectives" and "listening to what is being said" and declaring an unofficial holiday here and there. It works on minorities because at the end of day the choice for us is "Democrats or death". Suburban whites are under no such pressure.
In these days of broad capitulation, it seems like the options are "Democrats and/or death".

If the Democrats aren't willing to wage war on their principles... What do you call a war when one side isn't even standing up to fight? An extermination? A massacre?
 
It must be comforting to perceive people as one extreme or the other, and to never need worry about "shades of gray" in between.
Depending on what news you pay attention to you could believe that it's only the radical Teapartiers who behave that way.
Tom
 
In these days of broad capitulation, it seems like the options are "Democrats and/or death".
Yeah, but this could be said about anything.
If the Democrats aren't willing to wage war on their principles...
You mean the principle like 'we don't want to wage war in our country and we need to remain civil'?
What do you call a war when one side isn't even standing up to fight? An extermination? A massacre?
What do you call a war where both sides fight... "a war". The word "war" has been flung a lot, and quite easily over the last decade plus. With no regard to what it actually means.
 
You mean the principle like 'we don't want to wage war in our country and we need to remain civil'?
Yes. Because its pointless to throw good faith after bad.

What do you call a war where both sides fight... "a war".
A chance of survival at the end of it all, rather than extermination.

A bloody war is better than a polite extermination.
 
You mean the principle like 'we don't want to wage war in our country and we need to remain civil'?
Yes. Because its pointless to throw good faith after bad.

What do you call a war where both sides fight... "a war".
A chance of survival at the end of it all, rather than extermination.

A bloody war is better than a polite extermination.
Or just voting for the Democrats and avoiding the blood all together.
 
If the Democrats aren't willing to wage war on their principles... What do you call a war when one side isn't even standing up to fight? An extermination? A massacre?
Which "principles" do you think Dems should wage war on? Be specific please.
At this point, the generalized rights of minorities. We aren't certain about Due Process at the moment, because they are only impacting illegals, but when the POTUS and the SoS are talking about sending US "criminals" to a foreign prison... you can't not take that seriously.

Beyond that, it is less about individual rights and more about how the clock is being turned back by SCOTUS with the likes of Roper-Bright and Dobbs and the whole President be immune to "all sortz of shitz".

Can't be waging war, but these things matter!
 
Or just voting for the Democrats and avoiding the blood all together.
It doesn't work that way. The best that has gotten us backsliding, the loss of political power, and losing SCOTUS justices anyway.
 
I was asking Jarhyn specifically because he is so vocally opposed to moderate Democrats.
But I'll still reply, of course:
At this point, the generalized rights of minorities.
I would amend that to individual rights, rather than "rights of minorities". The way this has been interpreted by the "modern American liberalism"™ for more than half of century is in terms of group rights, not individual rights. This has led to "us vs. them" type of thinking, which has balkanized our society, potentially causing irreparable harm.
If the focus had been on individuals, it would have been far better received. After all, everybody is part of a minority in some contexts. But by focusing on groups, you are pitting black vs. white, gay vs. straight, women vs. men, and people on the receiving end of these jabs feel increasingly marginalized and ripe for takeover by somebody like Trump.
We aren't certain about Due Process at the moment, because they are only impacting illegals,
I am all for due process, but again, once you identify illegal aliens as a group good Dems should support, it goes well beyond that, into "no human is illegal" and "no deportations" nonsense.
but when the POTUS and the SoS are talking about sending US "criminals" to a foreign prison... you can't not take that seriously.
Yes, that is bad, but we have to realize that Trump was backlash to decades of neglect of the issue, that led to millions of illegals flooding the US. I remember the Dem primary debates in 2019, where most candidates were one-upping each other who would be more permissive toward so-called "asylum seekers".
Beyond that, it is less about individual rights and more about how the clock is being turned back by SCOTUS with the likes of Roper-Bright and Dobbs and the whole President be immune to "all sortz of shitz".
On the contrary, we need to goo back to actual liberalism of individual rights. The focus on groups over the individual, which has dominated liberalism for decades, was a misstep. It degenerated into groups being pitted against each other.
Take abortion, since you mention Dobbs. You often hear "right to choose", but why should this right be limited to abortion? If the "right to choose" and "right to privacy" had been taken seriously as individual rights, as opposed to applying solely and exclusively to select groups the left likes (e.g. women seeking abortions or gays) then it should apply to other people. For example, consensual sex work - if "right to privacy" and "right to choose what to do with one's body" are affirmed as principles, I do not see how a ban on sex work can be defended from a liberal perspective. But that could not be allowed, because SWERFy feminists are a powerful group on the left, and they think all sex work is exploitative. So, the "right to choose", but only as long as some busybody approves of the choice, and not as an individual right.

As to Loper-Bright, an argument could be made that Chevron gave too much deference to regulatory agencies in interpreting laws. Overreaches in the past often lead to pendulum swinging too far the other way.
Can't be waging war, but these things matter!
I agree, even if we often disagree about where how things that matter should be decided.
 
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Or just voting for the Democrats and avoiding the blood all together.
It doesn't work that way. The best that has gotten us backsliding, the loss of political power, and losing SCOTUS justices anyway.
Staying home or voting for Jill Stein over the Democratic candidate because she was not pure enough has led to this. "Just voting for the Democrats and avoiding the blood all together" did not lead to losses in 2016 and 2024.
 
Or just voting for the Democrats and avoiding the blood all together.
It doesn't work that way. The best that has gotten us backsliding, the loss of political power, and losing SCOTUS justices anyway.
Staying home or voting for Jill Stein over the Democratic candidate because she was not pure enough has led to this. "Just voting for the Democrats and avoiding the blood all together" did not lead to losses in 2016 and 2024.
It helped to lead to 2016 loss to Trump.
 
Of course not! To win a national election in this ignorant racist commie-hating country, we have to appeal to the commie-haters. Yes, there are DemSocs winning elections. They are NOT winning in the many districts where ignorant commie-haters are a majority.
"We" will never appeal to ignorant racist commie-haters. No matter how much we concede to them. They want our deaths, not our vague and inconsistent support. It doesn't matter what someone says they are "considering thinking about", they simply do not want gay Mexican urban planners in office, and no amount of "signaling" that we are "listening to their concerns" is going to make a queer foreigner from the city more attractive to their sensibilities than a Nazi ditz from an affluent rural suburb.
Wrong. There are different degrees of ignorance, racism, and commie-hating. There were MANY people from America's huge "redneck" Middle who aren't completely racist (Obama was elected twice), and who watch CNN regularly, and who DID have severe misgivings about the pussy-grabbing fraudster; but who DID choose Trump as (what they thought to be) the lesser of two evils.

Reducing these many millions of slightly racist centrists from America's heartland to caricatures -- or calling them "deplorables" -- is a good way to turn them off, and make them believe that Trump, despite his many faults that they are well aware of, might be "the lesser of two evils."

More succinctly, the anger and bitterness that you and Jarhyn represent is part of the PROBLEM and NOT part of the solution.
Anyone who has, seven years into the madness, looked at Trump and concluded that he is the lesser of two evils, will not be lightly dissuaded of that opinion. Especially not by the means the Democratic Party is accustomed to using, the vague and
whiffy language of "honoring perspectives" and "listening to what is being said" and declaring an unofficial holiday here and there. It works on minorities because at the end of day the choice for us is "Democrats or death". Suburban whites are under no such pressure.
In these days of broad capitulation, it seems like the options are "Democrats and/or death".

If the Democrats aren't willing to wage war on their principles... What do you call a war when one side isn't even standing up to fight? An extermination? A massacre?
Well, there are still a few useful Democrats in office. You can tell which ones, because most of them have spent time in handcuffs since January. But yeah, these days it seems like Republican infighting is doing more to delay Trump's plans than most Democrats... most disheartening.

But that is also why I don't think the DNC has a prayer of convincing centrist voters that they are the best choice for closeted race chauvinists. A choice? Sure. A better choice than Trump? You've got to be joking. No one believed for even half a second that Kamala Harris' campaign turn toward the disenchanted middle was genuine. If anything, anti-Harris propaganda intensified as she tried to pivot.
 
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I was asking Jarhyn specifically because he is so vocally opposed to moderate Democrats.
Yeah, moderate Dems who try to negotiate with the hard righties then get their teeth kicked in by them. Big help there.
 
Yes, that is bad, but we have to realize that Trump was backlash to decades of neglect of the issue, that led to millions of illegals flooding the US.
How many times does it have to be said that coming here and claiming asylum is and does not make you an illegal?
 
Yes, that is bad, but we have to realize that Trump was backlash to decades of neglect of the issue, that led to millions of illegals flooding the US.
How many times does it have to be said that coming here and claiming asylum is and does not make you an illegal?
Not to mention that whole rash of "they took our jobs employees" problem that all these "small business owners" are complaining about.
 
Of course not! To win a national election in this ignorant racist commie-hating country, we have to appeal to the commie-haters. Yes, there are DemSocs winning elections. They are NOT winning in the many districts where ignorant commie-haters are a majority.
"We" will never appeal to ignorant racist commie-haters. No matter how much we concede to them. They want our deaths, not our vague and inconsistent support. It doesn't matter what someone says they are "considering thinking about", they simply do not want gay Mexican urban planners in office, and no amount of "signaling" that we are "listening to their concerns" is going to make a queer foreigner from the city more attractive to their sensibilities than a Nazi ditz from an affluent rural suburb.
Wrong. There are different degrees of ignorance, racism, and commie-hating. There were MANY people from America's huge "redneck" Middle who aren't completely racist (Obama was elected twice), and who watch CNN regularly, and who DID have severe misgivings about the pussy-grabbing fraudster; but who DID choose Trump as (what they thought to be) the lesser of two evils.

Reducing these many millions of slightly racist centrists from America's heartland to caricatures -- or calling them "deplorables" -- is a good way to turn them off, and make them believe that Trump, despite his many faults that they are well aware of, might be "the lesser of two evils."

More succinctly, the anger and bitterness that you and Jarhyn represent is part of the PROBLEM and NOT part of the solution.
Anyone who has, seven years into the madness, looked at Trump and concluded that he is the lesser of two evils, will not be lightly dissuaded of that opinion. Especially not by the means the Democratic Party is accustomed to using, vague and whiffy language like "honoring differing perspectives" and "listening to what is being said" and declaring an unofficial holiday here and there. It works on minorities because at the end of day the choice for us is "Democrats or death". Suburban whites are under no such pressure.
The problem is that they have never really looked.

But that does not change the problem he's pointing out: you represent an attitude that cost the country dearly.
 
In these days of broad capitulation, it seems like the options are "Democrats and/or death".

If the Democrats aren't willing to wage war on their principles... What do you call a war when one side isn't even standing up to fight? An extermination? A massacre?
You say they aren't standing up to fight, but what's going on is that you want them to fight a losing battle. The Democrats were already too far left, you want them to go even farther.
 
Of course not! To win a national election in this ignorant racist commie-hating country, we have to appeal to the commie-haters. Yes, there are DemSocs winning elections. They are NOT winning in the many districts where ignorant commie-haters are a majority.
"We" will never appeal to ignorant racist commie-haters. No matter how much we concede to them. They want our deaths, not our vague and inconsistent support. It doesn't matter what someone says they are "considering thinking about", they simply do not want gay Mexican urban planners in office, and no amount of "signaling" that we are "listening to their concerns" is going to make a queer foreigner from the city more attractive to their sensibilities than a Nazi ditz from an affluent rural suburb.
Wrong. There are different degrees of ignorance, racism, and commie-hating. There were MANY people from America's huge "redneck" Middle who aren't completely racist (Obama was elected twice), and who watch CNN regularly, and who DID have severe misgivings about the pussy-grabbing fraudster; but who DID choose Trump as (what they thought to be) the lesser of two evils.

Reducing these many millions of slightly racist centrists from America's heartland to caricatures -- or calling them "deplorables" -- is a good way to turn them off, and make them believe that Trump, despite his many faults that they are well aware of, might be "the lesser of two evils."

More succinctly, the anger and bitterness that you and Jarhyn represent is part of the PROBLEM and NOT part of the solution.
Anyone who has, seven years into the madness, looked at Trump and concluded that he is the lesser of two evils, will not be lightly dissuaded of that opinion. Especially not by the means the Democratic Party is accustomed to using, vague and whiffy language like "honoring differing perspectives" and "listening to what is being said" and declaring an unofficial holiday here and there. It works on minorities because at the end of day the choice for us is "Democrats or death". Suburban whites are under no such pressure.
The problem is that they have never really looked.

But that does not change the problem he's pointing out: you represent an attitude that cost the country dearly.
You see the fascist tide rising, and the only villains you see are those who were brave enough to call it what it is.
 
In these days of broad capitulation, it seems like the options are "Democrats and/or death".

If the Democrats aren't willing to wage war on their principles... What do you call a war when one side isn't even standing up to fight? An extermination? A massacre?
You say they aren't standing up to fight, but what's going on is that you want them to fight a losing battle. The Democrats were already too far left, you want them to go even farther.
You lose every battle you don't fight. The Dems have not been fighting for a long time, and have lost a lot of battles as a result.

The Democrats are *right* of center, historically speaking and internationally. Any further right and you'll be *volunteering* to step into the train.
 
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