Democratic Debate #1

[Elixir]

I am watching debates and got a practical question. It seems most candidates when asked about deportations of people who have done nothing wrong except being illegal, say they should not be deported. Does that mean that I can come to US as a tourist and stay forever?
What's the catch?

Apply for asylum, barbos. Of course you'll have to represent that you are being persecuted in Russia, and if you lose your asylum case you'll be sent home and probably killed... but that's a small price to pay for the America Dream, right?

 

[Worldtraveller]

Not in this Democratic party... I know plenty of Dumbercrats that will withhold their vote exactly because the primary winner isn't "black enough" or "anti-racist enough" or "experienced enough".. or whatever their favorite labeling is to compare with their sophomoric, idealist, fantasy PC President.... That the candidate is a billion times more "black" or "more anti-racist" or "experienced" than the incumbent will continue to forever escape them.

I knew some like that in 2016, but so far, I haven't met any who say they won't vote if the nominee isn't the one that they wanted. I have seen some editorials written by moderate Republicans who hate Trump, say they would like to vote for the Democratic nominee, but they won't if the person is too progressive. It's all really silly when you consider that no president, at least not in the past 50 years, has ever been able to get most of what they wanted, and the Congress would have to be far more liberal than it currently is for that to change. I seriously doubt that's going to happen in the foreseeable future. I'm a liberal, but I'm also a realist.

I have, sadly. Lots of them on my FB feed. There are a lot of (dumb) young idealist types that are more than willing to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. They think they are all politically savvy and aware of how things work, but they are all so very hopelessly naive.

 

[barbos]

I am watching debates and got a practical question. It seems most candidates when asked about deportations of people who have done nothing wrong except being illegal, say they should not be deported. Does that mean that I can come to US as a tourist and stay forever?
What's the catch?

Apply for asylum, barbos. Of course you'll have to represent that you are being persecuted in Russia, and if you lose your asylum case you'll be sent home and probably killed... but that's a small price to pay for the America Dream, right?

Candidates don't mention asylum, the only condition is that you should not be bad hombre and of course you have to somehow get to US.

 

[Elixir]

Candidates don't mention asylum, the only condition is that you should not be bad hombre and of course you have to somehow get to US.

Candidates have nothing to do with whether you are able to stay in the US.
There are cures for ignorance, barbos, but I'm not here to administer them.

 

[barbos]

Candidates don't mention asylum, the only condition is that you should not be bad hombre and of course you have to somehow get to US.

Candidates have nothing to do with whether you are able to stay in the US.
There are cures for ignorance, barbos, but I'm not here to administer them.

You seems to be extra upset at possibility of me coming to US and staying
Anyway, that's what candidates asked and what most of them answered - "No deportation of illegal immigrants who did not commit actual crime"

 

[southernhybrid]

Not in this Democratic party... I know plenty of Dumbercrats that will withhold their vote exactly because the primary winner isn't "black enough" or "anti-racist enough" or "experienced enough".. or whatever their favorite labeling is to compare with their sophomoric, idealist, fantasy PC President.... That the candidate is a billion times more "black" or "more anti-racist" or "experienced" than the incumbent will continue to forever escape them.

I knew some like that in 2016, but so far, I haven't met any who say they won't vote if the nominee isn't the one that they wanted. I have seen some editorials written by moderate Republicans who hate Trump, say they would like to vote for the Democratic nominee, but they won't if the person is too progressive. It's all really silly when you consider that no president, at least not in the past 50 years, has ever been able to get most of what they wanted, and the Congress would have to be far more liberal than it currently is for that to change. I seriously doubt that's going to happen in the foreseeable future. I'm a liberal, but I'm also a realist.

I have, sadly. Lots of them on my FB feed. There are a lot of (dumb) young idealist types that are more than willing to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. They think they are all politically savvy and aware of how things work, but they are all so very hopelessly naive.

That is worrisome. I don't have any friends who are younger than 40, so maybe that's why I haven't spoken to any this time who say they won't vote unless their favorite candidate becomes the nominee. It's sad when people become absolutists. If what you're seeing is widespread than we are probably looking at the reelection of Trump. Or, maybe some of these dumbass kids will wise up and realize that nobody ever gets everything they want.

 

[Gun Nut]

You say that as if you believe what the Jews have to say!

You mean those original authors of "the" bible? ya... I'd take a primary source over someone's fiction-producing butt crack.

So when a Jew tells you, "Moses received the commandments directly from God on Mount Sinai," you agree with the Jew?

Very interesting.

No Jew has ever told me that. Some have said that Moses was inspired by god to write down rules to help him manage the people he was leading...
Jews are theists that are the closest to atheists I have ever known.
Tell a Christian that their god does not exist and you get outrage and violence.
Tell a Jew that their god does not exist and you get a friendly, open-minded discussion.

 

[Gun Nut]

I have, sadly. Lots of them on my FB feed. There are a lot of (dumb) young idealist types that are more than willing to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. They think they are all politically savvy and aware of how things work, but they are all so very hopelessly naive.

That is worrisome. I don't have any friends who are younger than 40, so maybe that's why I haven't spoken to any this time who say they won't vote unless their favorite candidate becomes the nominee. It's sad when people become absolutists. If what you're seeing is widespread than we are probably looking at the reelection of Trump. Or, maybe some of these dumbass kids will wise up and realize that nobody ever gets everything they want.

My best example is of a 47 year old democrat that did not vote for Hillary because she was not good enough for him, despite believing that Trump was the worst possible option for America in recorded history. His wife can't even speak with him about the topic.

This is what I tell those people:

You are not making the point you think you are making by choosing not to vote for your team. The point you are making is that politicians can ignore you because your opinion does not matter to their career one bit, so they can get away with whatever they want, and will never know what you want.
The electoral college needs to go. That is the biggest problem with our representatives... they do not represent the actual majority. Some day, a constitutional amendment will be made for that. When that day comes, it is the statistics around the popular vote versus the election winners that will drive change. Be a part of that change instead of working against it by failing to boost that statistic that one day will show how wrong having the electoral college is.

 

[Arctish]

I am watching debates and got a practical question. It seems most candidates when asked about deportations of people who have done nothing wrong except being illegal, say they should not be deported. Does that mean that I can come to US as a tourist and stay forever?
What's the catch?

You have to work your ass off doing backbreaking menial labor by day and waiting tables or stocking shelves by night, you have to pay into Social Security but never get any benefits, and you'll be a political football every couple of years. Oh, and you might be the victim of a hate crime or two. Or your kids will.

 

[barbos]

I am watching debates and got a practical question. It seems most candidates when asked about deportations of people who have done nothing wrong except being illegal, say they should not be deported. Does that mean that I can come to US as a tourist and stay forever?
What's the catch?

You have to work your ass off doing backbreaking menial labor by day and waiting tables or stocking shelves by night, you have to pay into Social Security but never get any benefits, and you'll be a political football every couple of years. Oh, and you might be the victim of a hate crime or two. Or your kids will.

Oh, that's what democratic presidential candidates plan.

 

[southernhybrid]

My best example is of a 47 year old democrat that did not vote for Hillary because she was not good enough for him, despite believing that Trump was the worst possible option for America in recorded history. His wife can't even speak with him about the topic.

I knew several people over 40 who refused to vote for Hillary because, "I don't like her". They were Bernie supporters. I have no idea what liking a candidate has to do with voting for him/her. Comedian/author Fran Lebowitz was on Bill Mahr several weeks ago and she said, she hated Joe Biden but she sure would vote for him without reservation if he was the nominee. I totally respect her point of view. I've voted for plenty of people who I didn't like. You always have to weigh the alternative and vote for whoever seems better. I don't even use the "lesser of two evils" phrase. I think that's idiotic. There is always one candidate who is better than the other when it comes to the things that are important to you or the things you think are better for the country.

People expect their president to be perfect. They seem to forget that politicians are flawed humans just like the rest of us. And, politicians can't accomplish anything unless they are willing to compromise. Of course, at this time, any of the Democratic candidates are far superior to the that POS we have in office now. I hope Democrats don't fuck it up again. And, I also hope Democrats will work hard to take back the Senate and hold their majority in the House.

 

[Gun Nut]

My best example is of a 47 year old democrat that did not vote for Hillary because she was not good enough for him, despite believing that Trump was the worst possible option for America in recorded history. His wife can't even speak with him about the topic.

I knew several people over 40 who refused to vote for Hillary because, "I don't like her". They were Bernie supporters. I have no idea what liking a candidate has to do with voting for him/her. Comedian/author Fran Lebowitz was on Bill Mahr several weeks ago and she said, she hated Joe Biden but she sure would vote for him without reservation if he was the nominee. I totally respect her point of view. I've voted for plenty of people who I didn't like. You always have to weigh the alternative and vote for whoever seems better. I don't even use the "lesser of two evils" phrase. I think that's idiotic. There is always one candidate who is better than the other when it comes to the things that are important to you or the things you think are better for the country.

People expect their president to be perfect. They seem to forget that politicians are flawed humans just like the rest of us. And, politicians can't accomplish anything unless they are willing to compromise. Of course, at this time, any of the Democratic candidates are far superior to the that POS we have in office now. I hope Democrats don't fuck it up again. And, I also hope Democrats will work hard to take back the Senate and hold their majority in the House.

We are in agreement on that....

If you can get the rest of your democratic party to agree then it can happen for you. You can't... so it won't. No one will be Woke (TM) enough for far too many of you.
It's exactly what the Republicans are counting on... and it's a good bet.

 

[Gun Nut]

I am watching debates and got a practical question. It seems most candidates when asked about deportations of people who have done nothing wrong except being illegal, say they should not be deported. Does that mean that I can come to US as a tourist and stay forever?
What's the catch?

Yes. You theoretically can. The catch is you would be walking around on borrowed time... eventually you would need ID of some sort to exist beyond immigrant-level subsistence living (hand to mouth)... to get a bank account... a house.... You can live here, but you would have to pick strawberries for minimum cash in a field under the protection of the owner of the land. If that is a better deal than whatever you have going on in your life right now, then you just might be a Mexican and didn't even know it!

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

My best example is of a 47 year old democrat that did not vote for Hillary because she was not good enough for him, despite believing that Trump was the worst possible option for America in recorded history. His wife can't even speak with him about the topic.

This is what I tell those people:

You are not making the point you think you are making by choosing not to vote for your team. The point you are making is that politicians can ignore you because your opinion does not matter to their career one bit, so they can get away with whatever they want, and will never know what you want.

I disagree. Had he and others like him voted for Hillary despite not endorsing her, she would have won. Had she won the Democratic Party would be moving further to the right, and we would not be seeing all these candidates from the Bernie wing of the party. By standing against Hillary, yes we got Trump for the short term, but we also got a strong push on the Democratic Party ship towards the left.

 

[Gun Nut]

My best example is of a 47 year old democrat that did not vote for Hillary because she was not good enough for him, despite believing that Trump was the worst possible option for America in recorded history. His wife can't even speak with him about the topic.

This is what I tell those people:

You are not making the point you think you are making by choosing not to vote for your team. The point you are making is that politicians can ignore you because your opinion does not matter to their career one bit, so they can get away with whatever they want, and will never know what you want.

I disagree. Had he and others like him voted for Hillary despite not endorsing her, she would have won. Had she won the Democratic Party would be moving further to the right, and we would not be seeing all these candidates from the Bernie wing of the party. By standing against Hillary, yes we got Trump for the short term, but we also got a strong push on the Democratic Party ship towards the left.

It's funny that you think that a strong push to the left is a good thing... keep it up.... 4 more years!
Keep ignoring the SCOTUS behind the curtain too! Don't worry about that... short term... just keep saying it... short term..

 

[Jarhyn]

My best example is of a 47 year old democrat that did not vote for Hillary because she was not good enough for him, despite believing that Trump was the worst possible option for America in recorded history. His wife can't even speak with him about the topic.

This is what I tell those people:

You are not making the point you think you are making by choosing not to vote for your team. The point you are making is that politicians can ignore you because your opinion does not matter to their career one bit, so they can get away with whatever they want, and will never know what you want.

I disagree. Had he and others like him voted for Hillary despite not endorsing her, she would have won. Had she won the Democratic Party would be moving further to the right, and we would not be seeing all these candidates from the Bernie wing of the party. By standing against Hillary, yes we got Trump for the short term, but we also got a strong push on the Democratic Party ship towards the left.

It's funny that you think that a strong push to the left is a good thing... keep it up.... 4 more years!
Keep ignoring the SCOTUS behind the curtain too! Don't worry about that... short term... just keep saying it... short term..

Says the person pulling for long term *fascism*. Never even pay lipservice to the suggestions coming from the party of fascism. They will have you acting against your interests in service of theirs every time.

Don't listen to the republicans saying Bernie is "unelectable". They won't vote D anyway.

Don't pay attention to the republicans saying Biden is the best bet because he 'appeals to moderates'. They won't vote D anyway.

You can 100% count on "advice" from the right only benefitting the right.

 

[Gun Nut]

It's funny that you think that a strong push to the left is a good thing... keep it up.... 4 more years!
Keep ignoring the SCOTUS behind the curtain too! Don't worry about that... short term... just keep saying it... short term..

Says the person pulling for long term *fascism*. Never even pay lipservice to the suggestions coming from the party of fascism. They will have you acting against your interests in service of theirs every time.

Don't listen to the republicans saying Bernie is "unelectable". They won't vote D anyway.

Don't pay attention to the republicans saying Biden is the best bet because he 'appeals to moderates'. They won't vote D anyway.

You can 100% count on "advice" from the right only benefitting the right.

My "right handed" advice for the left is on the level. Just look at my post history... hell its one of the main reasons I joined up here. I sort of want to help you guys.... just a little... insofar as I rather have a fair fight that results in something that actually represents the majority of the nation... not just the team that knows how to play politics far better than than the other side... my political advice to the left is to a) stop trying to out-woke everyone with moral superiority being the end all to everything and b) start trying to actually play the game to win.

 

[Elixir]

My "right handed" advice for the left is on the level. Just look at my post history... hell its one of the main reasons I joined up here. I sort of want to help you guys.... just a little... insofar as I rather have a fair fight that results in something that actually represents the majority of the nation... not just the team that knows how to play politics far better than than the other side... my political advice to the left is to a) stop trying to out-woke everyone with moral superiority being the end all to everything and b) start trying to actually play the game to win.

Yeah, that's great - to the extent that it's not totally disingenuous, and "play to win" means "cheat like they do".
Maybe even that would be preferable to laying down in the progressive pity pot. But the ideal outcome IMHO would be to get one honest win over the cheaters, then take strong measures to outlaw the kind of shit that the 'pugs have been up to in recent years, before the Dems themselves become what they despise (if it's not already too late).

 

[Trausti]

It's funny that you think that a strong push to the left is a good thing... keep it up.... 4 more years!
Keep ignoring the SCOTUS behind the curtain too! Don't worry about that... short term... just keep saying it... short term..

Says the person pulling for long term *fascism*. Never even pay lipservice to the suggestions coming from the party of fascism. They will have you acting against your interests in service of theirs every time.

Don't listen to the republicans saying Bernie is "unelectable". They won't vote D anyway.

Don't pay attention to the republicans saying Biden is the best bet because he 'appeals to moderates'. They won't vote D anyway.

You can 100% count on "advice" from the right only benefitting the right.

Could you define "fascism"? Is that like when the government forces citizens to buy private insurance under threat of penalty?

 

[Gun Nut]

My "right handed" advice for the left is on the level. Just look at my post history... hell its one of the main reasons I joined up here. I sort of want to help you guys.... just a little... insofar as I rather have a fair fight that results in something that actually represents the majority of the nation... not just the team that knows how to play politics far better than than the other side... my political advice to the left is to a) stop trying to out-woke everyone with moral superiority being the end all to everything and b) start trying to actually play the game to win.

Yeah, that's great - to the extent that it's not totally disingenuous, and "play to win" means "cheat like they do".
Maybe even that would be preferable to laying down in the progressive pity pot. But the ideal outcome IMHO would be to get one honest win over the cheaters, then take strong measures to outlaw the kind of shit that the 'pugs have been up to in recent years, before the Dems themselves become what they despise (if it's not already too late).

Is it "cheating" to tone down the moral superiority tact that the far left is flinging? Is it cheating to simply choose to not call another Dem a fascist because they want one kind of healthcare system over another? Is it cheating to remind people of things said and action taken in the past by others?
Playing to win is not the same as playing against the rules.
Here's one easy trick to not give away the election... limit the candidates to some number less than the billion and a half that are running that serve only to confuse people and dilute your base. What happens when their favorite isn't the runner? Do they do like the Reps and join in with their team for the generally representative candidate? No.. they go sulk and make a point by staying at home.
I'm not saying to cheat to win.. I'm saying that you might just want to at least show up to the game and participate.

Why do you call what I said disingenuous? Like, i'm lying? I thought you were getting to know me.... disappointed.