• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Democrats trying to unseat each other II

I'm sorry to say but Nina lost because she had fewer votes than Brown. Period. There is no evil cabals of "corporate democratic meanies" conspiring to hold back the far left. The voters in Ohio liked Brown a little bit more than Nina. A tiny majority of dem voters liked Biden a little more than Sanders. A smaller majority liked Hillary slightly more than Sanders. People like Marianne alleging conspiracies to steal the vote are no better than the Trump voter crazies alleging conspiracies.
Let's see what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot. Like if your favorite candidate lost because an opposing candidate had a massively-funded outside-money campaign that involved horrible smears, like saying that your candidate was for lots of extreme positions.

That's a downside of representative democracy - elections turning into shouting matches.

Also, why not weep for Rep. Joe Crowley in 2018? Rep. Mike Capuano?

Briahna Joy Gray: Nina Turner DEFEATED Thanks To DARK MONEY, Here’s What Progressives MUST Learn - YouTube -- part of iSB was getting a lot of Republican-leaning voters to vote against NT, something possible because Ohio's primaries are open primaries. She also noted that something similar happened in South Carolina -- getting out the votes of Republican-leaning suburbanites.

More broadly, that's a problem with open partisan primaries. People from outside the party might show up and cause mischief. I think that we should make all primaries nonpartisan, with the top-performing candidates continuing to the general election. Something like what CA and WA now do with their top-two system. If nothing else, it's made for some genuinely competitive general elections, with two Democrats or two Republicans up against each other. Like last year, Nancy Pelosi being challenged on her left by a fellow Democrat.


Finally, has SB ever laid out what kind of policy vision she wants? Anything comparable to what NT did? Not that I know of. There is nothing to say that a centrist candidate cannot lay out some policy vision or some agenda, and right-wing candidates often do so.

2016 election was a big reminder that spending dosn't always decide elections. HRC overspent Trump. Mike Bloomberg always dramatically overspends his opponents. He always loses. He just isn't likable. I think that there just a few more voters who liked Brown more than Nina. Brown has charisma and appeals to a broad base of voters that might get her elected against the republican. That's the biggest issue to me: defeat Trump and his henchmen.
 
I'm sorry to say but Nina lost because she had fewer votes than Brown. Period. There is no evil cabals of "corporate democratic meanies" conspiring to hold back the far left. The voters in Ohio liked Brown a little bit more than Nina. A tiny majority of dem voters liked Biden a little more than Sanders. A smaller majority liked Hillary slightly more than Sanders. People like Marianne alleging conspiracies to steal the vote are no better than the Trump voter crazies alleging conspiracies.
Let's see what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot. Like if your favorite candidate lost because an opposing candidate had a massively-funded outside-money campaign that involved horrible smears, like saying that your candidate was for lots of extreme positions.

That's a downside of representative democracy - elections turning into shouting matches.

Also, why not weep for Rep. Joe Crowley in 2018? Rep. Mike Capuano?

Briahna Joy Gray: Nina Turner DEFEATED Thanks To DARK MONEY, Here’s What Progressives MUST Learn - YouTube -- part of iSB was getting a lot of Republican-leaning voters to vote against NT, something possible because Ohio's primaries are open primaries. She also noted that something similar happened in South Carolina -- getting out the votes of Republican-leaning suburbanites.

More broadly, that's a problem with open partisan primaries. People from outside the party might show up and cause mischief. I think that we should make all primaries nonpartisan, with the top-performing candidates continuing to the general election. Something like what CA and WA now do with their top-two system. If nothing else, it's made for some genuinely competitive general elections, with two Democrats or two Republicans up against each other. Like last year, Nancy Pelosi being challenged on her left by a fellow Democrat.


Finally, has SB ever laid out what kind of policy vision she wants? Anything comparable to what NT did? Not that I know of. There is nothing to say that a centrist candidate cannot lay out some policy vision or some agenda, and right-wing candidates often do so.

2016 election was a big reminder that spending dosn't always decide elections. HRC overspent Trump. Mike Bloomberg always dramatically overspends his opponents. He always loses. He just isn't likable. I think that there just a few more voters who liked Brown more than Nina. Brown has charisma and appeals to a broad base of voters that might get her elected against the republican. That's the biggest issue to me: defeat Trump and his henchmen.
Turner/Brown were vying for a House seat that is grossly gerrymandered. The winner was likely going to win the General Election easily. Turner, however, had less broad support and, to me, comes across primarily as an anti-establishment candidate, not a progressive.
 
I prefer open primaires because that way I can vote against a horrible Republican asshole, if the Democrats only have one candidate running, or two similar candidates. When Ralph Reed ran for our Lt. Governor, a lot of my friends and I voted in the Republican primary because we didn't want him to win his primary. It did make me feel dirty requesting a Republican ballot, but it was worth it since he lost.

I'm not a far left progressive, partly because most of those folks don't understand compromise and they are often insanely unrealistic. I didn't follow the Ohio primary, but I'm glad it went the way it did. The US has always been center right or center left. Imo, it's potentially dangerous to go too far in either direction. We can see that on the Right these days. Of course, I will vote for someone who seems a bit too progressive for my taste if the other option is a conservative.

I love candidates like Stacey Abrams. She is what I like to call a pragmatic progressive. She is brilliant, charismatic and she knows how to raise huge sums of money. She understands the art of compromise and she's great at getting out the vote.

But, as has been pointed out, money doesn't win elections or we would have a lot more Democrats in office by now, as they proved they can raise huge sums of money, mostly due to small donations. Harrison raised far more money than Graham in 2020, but he lost by a huge margin. Money is needed to run a good campaign, but it doesn't win elections.
 
Jessica Cisneros on Twitter: "Let's get it done. #TX28 (link)" / Twitter

Jessica Cisneros will again challenge U.S. Rep. Henry Cuellar | The Texas Tribune
"Cuellar’s campaign confirmed that the congressman, who has served since 2005, will seek another term in 2022."

Texas' 28th Congressional District election, 2020 - Ballotpedia - HC won the Democratic primary by only 3.6%. He won the general election by 19.3%.
“I think a lot of folks saw themselves reflected in the campaign last cycle, and even though we did come up a little bit short, I feel like a lot of South Texans were left with hope because we asked them to envision something that was almost impossible — or what people said was impossible — last time around,” Cisneros said in an interview.

Cisneros said the coronavirus pandemic has only amplified the case against Cuellar, saying he did not “step up in the way that we wanted him to to meet the moment to advocate for bold policies that would help South Texas.” In a launch video, she provided a fresh list of criticisms of Cuellar’s time in office since the last primary, including his work with Republicans on border legislation and the fact he was the only Democrat to vote against a sweeping overhaul of labor laws. She also criticized his help in securing $500,000 worth of coronavirus tests for Laredo that turned out to be unreliable.

“You would think that coming so close to losing his seat was a wake-up call, but it wasn’t,” Cisneros said in the interview.
However,
“We beat her handily last time,” spokesperson Colin Stother said, “and we’ll beat her by an even larger margin this time.”
Handily? With such a small margin, they ought to have been running scared.

Justice Democrats is now endorsing her.

Jessica Cisneros on Twitter: "🚨 Wow! We raised over $100,000 in less than NINE HOURS since launching our campaign!

I am so grateful for all the support from my community. Thank you so much. #TX28 (vid link)" / Twitter

then
Waleed Shahid on Twitter: "Incredible. @JCisnerosTX has broken the record of fastest @JusticeDems primary challenger to hit $100,000 previously held by @RanaForCongress (10 hours) and held by @JCisnerosTX before that (48 hours in 2019)." / Twitter
 
I prefer open primaires because that way I can vote against a horrible Republican asshole, if the Democrats only have one candidate running, or two similar candidates. When Ralph Reed ran for our Lt. Governor, a lot of my friends and I voted in the Republican primary because we didn't want him to win his primary. It did make me feel dirty requesting a Republican ballot, but it was worth it since he lost.
The trouble is that Republicans can also do that to Democrats.
I'm not a far left progressive, partly because most of those folks don't understand compromise and they are often insanely unrealistic.
Although that is difficult to argue with in principle, a certain kind of compromise is a bad compromise: compromising in advance. That's what Barack Obama did, and all he got was the Republicans continuing to obstruct him. All they had to do is obstruct him and he would move closer and closer to his position.
But, as has been pointed out, money doesn't win elections or we would have a lot more Democrats in office by now, as they proved they can raise huge sums of money, mostly due to small donations. Harrison raised far more money than Graham in 2020, but he lost by a huge margin. Money is needed to run a good campaign, but it doesn't win elections.
Let's not forget about independent-expenditure PACs like the Democratic Majority for Israel. It spent a huge amount of money on ads attacking Nina Turner.

Imagine if George Soros got into this game by founding a PAC that campaigns on the behalf of progressive candidates while maintaining the appearance of independence. Would that be OK? Or is it only OK if the Right does that?
 
The trouble is that Republicans can also do that to Democrats.
That is not trouble. We would be better off as a country if we had more moderate and fewer fringy, extremist elected officials from both sides of the aisle.

Although that is difficult to argue with in principle, a certain kind of compromise is a bad compromise: compromising in advance. That's what Barack Obama did, and all he got was the Republicans continuing to obstruct him. All they had to do is obstruct him and he would move closer and closer to his position.
And yet he accomplished a lot, most of all ACA.

Let's not forget about independent-expenditure PACs like the Democratic Majority for Israel. It spent a huge amount of money on ads attacking Nina Turner.
Can you blame them, given that NT is openly anti-Israel and is allied with antisemites like Tlaib and Omar?

Imagine if George Soros got into this game by founding a PAC that campaigns on the behalf of progressive candidates while maintaining the appearance of independence. Would that be OK? Or is it only OK if the Right does that?

George Soros does have a SuperPAC, with an innocuous-sounding name "Democracy PAC".
Soros launches super PAC for 2020
 
Nina Turner also had a massively-funded outside-money campaign. ...

But I guess her money is good money, but Brown's money is evil money. What a hypocrite!
Let's not forget outside-money spending, like by DMFI.

Let's imagine that the shoe was on the other foot. Like George Soros financing a PAC that spent a lot of money in support of a progressive candidate. Or some Russian troll farm.
Also, why not weep for Rep. Joe Crowley in 2018? Rep. Mike Capuano?
Those two are head and shoulders above those that replaced them. You might add Elliott Engel to that list too.
How so?

Joe Crowley ought to kick himself about taking his presumed seat for granted. Consider this: AOC Schools Her Opponent… On His Direct Mail | HackerAgency
She goes on to show that the back of her mailer clearly lays out why you would vote for her—what issues she cares about and what she wants to change. (And she doesn’t point it out, but I can’t help but notice her mailer is bilingual.)
However,
AOC then holds up Crowley’s booklet again.

“Where’s the primary date on this? When you first see it—when you first pull it out of your mailbox?”

She goes on to mock herself a bit, saying, “Alex, you’re being too harsh. You’re being way too harsh, give him a chance. Okay, let’s give him a chance. Let’s open it up.”

She opens it up.

“Okay, we’ve got this big, beautiful spread here. WHERE’S THE PRIMARY DATE?”

Spoiler: It’s nowhere.
AOC's bf then slammed Democratic campaign consultants as "garbage" for coming up with campaign material like that.

Derec said:
lpetrich said:
I think that we should make all primaries nonpartisan, with the top-performing candidates continuing to the general election. Something like what CA and WA now do with their top-two system. If nothing else, it's made for some genuinely competitive general elections, with two Democrats or two Republicans up against each other. Like last year, Nancy Pelosi being challenged on her left by a fellow Democrat.
That's a good idea.
Good that we agree on something.
Finally, has SB ever laid out what kind of policy vision she wants? Anything comparable to what NT did? Not that I know of. There is nothing to say that a centrist candidate cannot lay out some policy vision or some agenda, and right-wing candidates often do so.
You think SB is a "right-wing candidate"?
No, a centrist who seems like some party apparatchik who brags about her loyalty.
 
Shahid Buttar for Congress on Twitter: "“Many observers have noted the role [of] lies promoted by establishment Democrats in…yesterday’s special election. Having faced…even more vicious and unapologetically racist…lies in our race, I share a…pattern that has repeated itself from MA to CA….” (link)" / Twitter
noting
Guest Post By Shahid Buttar: Lies Punching Left Are A Pattern
Watching Nina Turner’s defeat at the hands of the Democratic establishment’s games felt eerily familiar. Many observers have noted the role played by the various lies promoted by establishment Democrats in the weeks leading up to yesterday’s special election. Having faced a similar-- frankly, even more vicious and unapologetically racist-- set of lies in our race, I offer a warning based on a pattern that has repeated itself from Massachusetts to California in the last year alone.

In OH-11, attack ads funded by establishment Democratic PACs, and even GOP donors, flooded the airwaves in Akron and Cleveland making false claims about Nina Turner’s policy positions. The ads didn’t take issue with the policies she supported, such as universal healthcare or climate justice, but they did affirmatively mischaracterize her positions and attack her as a disingenuous voice based on her (entirely legitimately) critiques of Joe Biden.

This pattern of weaponized lies fabricated to punch left is not new, however.
A big example of such hippie-punching by mainstream Democrats is Bill Clinton slamming Sister Souljah in 1992. Dorf on Law: It's Always Hippie-Punching Time for the Supposedly Liberal Media

The only big hippie-punching I know of on the Right is William F. Buckley's attacks on the John Birch Society in the early 1960's. But I don't see any Republican politicians doing hippie-punching against Trumpies.
 
Let's not forget outside-money spending, like by DMFI.

Vast majority of NT's money came from outside too. Just say what you are really thinking: "evil Jewish money" ...

Let's imagine that the shoe was on the other foot. Like George Soros financing a PAC that spent a lot of money in support of a progressive candidate. Or some Russian troll farm.
Soros does have a pro-left superPAC. Not sure whether he employs Russian troll farms, but I would not put it past him.

For one, they know that Israel is a democracy and an important ally and they also know how the economy works, unlike the DSA congress critters. A lot of "Squad" types also want to defund police.

Joe Crowley ought to kick himself about taking his presumed seat for granted.

In hindsight, he should have done more, true, but that says nothing about being in Congress vs. running for it. You seem to be focusing on AOC's primary run - where she won with mere 17k votes - and not on what she's been doing once in power.

No, a centrist who seems like some party apparatchik who brags about her loyalty.

Pretty funny to call her a "party apparatchik" when it is NT who is the socialist ...
 

What was "racist" in that race pray tell?

A big example of such hippie-punching by mainstream Democrats is Bill Clinton slamming Sister Souljah in 1992.

Lisa Williamson is a racist who wanted to see black people kill more whites. She is scum, and Clinton rightly attacked her. Unfortunately, that kind of racism would be fully embraced in the modern Democratic Party. :rolleyes:
 
Shahid Buttar continued with the San Francisco Chronicle once "maliciously and recklessly published a series of stories about allegations from a person who had for years accused me and many other people (including an 80 year old peace activist in North Carolina) of a long litany of cartoonishly implausible crimes including murder, human trafficking, and various conspiracies."
The defamatory Chronicle stories were planted by Democratic Party operatives who I had hired in 2019, and then replaced in 2020 after we won the top-two primary that spring. In addition to bringing the false accusation of sexual misconduct to the press, the same voices also hid from journalists the further facts about my accuser that they knew, and then added false claims of their own, based on never-specified behavior that no one else beyond them ever witnessed, lacking any evidence.

Back to Nina Turner, she has been quoted out of context about her "bowl of shit" remarks. She said that Joe Biden's policies are only half a bowl of shit compared to Trump's policies' full bowl of shit.


Also, about charisma, I think that it would be hard to compare to Nina Turner in that department.
 
Shahid Buttar continued with the San Francisco Chronicle once "maliciously and recklessly published a series of stories about allegations from a person who had for years accused me and many other people (including an 80 year old peace activist in North Carolina) of a long litany of cartoonishly implausible crimes including murder, human trafficking, and various conspiracies."
The defamatory Chronicle stories were planted by Democratic Party operatives who I had hired in 2019, and then replaced in 2020 after we won the top-two primary that spring. In addition to bringing the false accusation of sexual misconduct to the press, the same voices also hid from journalists the further facts about my accuser that they knew, and then added false claims of their own, based on never-specified behavior that no one else beyond them ever witnessed, lacking any evidence.

Back to Nina Turner, she has been quoted out of context about her "bowl of shit" remarks. She said that Joe Biden's policies are only half a bowl of shit compared to Trump's policies' full bowl of shit.


Also, about charisma, I think that it would be hard to compare to Nina Turner in that department.

Well, if you read her posts and interviews, she comes across as being much more against Biden than Trump. I don't know. To me, Nina Turner seemed to be more running to be a member of the "Squad" rather than running to represent the democrats.
 
Shontel Brown's big-money PAC supporters could have made the sorts of ads that progressives often make. Like present her a Burkean conservative, a very cautious reformist.

Burkean conservative? The more highbrow of conservatives have long admired a certain Edmund Burke, who rather famously criticized the French Revolution as reckless and ideological.


That aside, Brand New Congress is now endorsing Imani Oakley NJ-10. Her district includes Newark NJ.
 
Brand New Congress – Fighting for a better America. has a nicely redesigned site. Justice Democrats - Let's Elect the Next Generation now features Jessica Cisneros.

  • Angelica Dueñas - CA-29 - C San Fernando Valley - D+50 - Tony Cárdenas - January 3, 2013 - id inc 0.22
  • Shervin Aazami - CA-30 - W San Fernando Valley - D+39 - Brad Sherman - January 3, 1997 - id inc 0.34
  • Sheila Cherfilus-McCormick - FL-20 - Ft. Lauderdale, W Palm Beach - D+55 - (open seat)
  • Melanie D'Arrigo - NY-03 - NW Long Island - D+10 - Thomas Suozzi - January 3, 2017 - id inc 0.34
  • Imani Oakley - NJ-10 - Newark - D+66 - Donald Payne Jr. - November 15, 2012 - id inc 0.22
  • Kina Collins - IL-07 - parts of Chicago, W SW suburbs - D+74 - Danny K. Davis - January 3, 1997 - id inc 0.19
  • Rana Abdelhamid - NY-12 - E Manhattan, NW Brooklyn, W Queens - D+69 - Carolyn Maloney - January 3, 1993 - id inc 0.17
  • Odessa Kelly - TN-05 - Nashville - D+23 - Jim Cooper - January 3, 1983 - id inc 0.30
  • Jessica Cisneros - TX-28 - - San Antonio suburbs to Laredo - D+4 (D+19) - Henry Cuellar - January 3, 2005 - id inc 0.57
Let's look back at the previous successes of BNC and JD.

2018:
  • AOC - NY-12 - E Bronx, N Queens - D+45 (D+58) - Joe Crowley - January 3, 1999 - id 0.09 prev 0.31
  • Ayanna Pressley - MA-07 - 3/4 of Boston - D+72 - Mike Capuano - January 3, 1999 - id 0.05 prev 0.24
  • Rashida Tlaib - MI-13 - parts of Detroit, suburbs - D+59 - (open seat) - id 0.08
  • Ilhan Omar - MN-05 - Minneapolis, some suburbs - D+63 - (open seat) - id 0.10
2020:
  • Jamaal Bowman - NY-16 - N Bronx, S Westchester Cty - D+52 - Eliot Engel - January 3, 1989 - id prev 0.22
  • Marie Newman - IL-03 - W SW Chicago suburbs - D+13 - Dan Lipinski - January 3, 2005 (succeeded father Bill Lipinski) - id prev 0.41
  • Cori Bush - MO-01 - St. Louis, some of N suburbs - D+61 - Lacy Clay - January 3, 2001 (succeeded father Bill Clay) - id prev 0.26

Ideology scores from the report cards at govtrack.us -- 0 = liberal, 1 = conservative
 
Well, this is an unusual campaign ad.

[TWEET]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Today, I’m launching my campaign for Congress here in FL-15. It’s gonna be a different kind of campaign, for a challenging moment in our country, so I made a different kind of video. <br><br>Watch it now, then chip in a buck or two to help us start strong: <a href="https://t.co/O9nBT8Ae20">https://t.co/O9nBT8Ae20</a> <a href="https://t.co/47axwgMh2q">pic.twitter.com/47axwgMh2q</a></p>— Eddie Geller (@gellered) <a href="https://twitter.com/gellered/status/1425804436425818118?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 12, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/TWEET]
 
AOC's commercials:
For the most part, both ads are very positive. She didn't make her first ad mostly about Joe Crowley and her second ad mostly about Michelle Caruso-Cabrera.

She did make a negative ad against MCC in 2020, but that ad is much less well-known. She said in it that MCC is "not one of us", saying that MCC is a Wall Street carpetbagger from Trump Tower. MCC, however, did mostly negative ads.


Yvette Simpson Schools ABC News On Nina Turner's Loss While Rahm Emanuel Squirms - YouTube - "Yvette Simpson, the CEO of Democracy for America, debated why Nina Turner lost in Ohio's 11th district with Rahm Emanuel and host George Stephanopoulos on ABC News."

YS claimed that Shontel Brown lost to Nina Turner in her own district, and that appealing to affluent voters in the Shaker Heights neighborhood is what gave SB enough votes to win.
 
Paula Jean Swearengin on Twitter: "A screenshot in hopes this won't get lost in the Twitter noise...I fully supported you @AOC ! Can you go back to fully supporting #Medicare4All again?

I'm asking for all of my friends & supporters that believed in you too. #MedicareForAll (link)" / Twitter

(on AOC tweeting less and less about M4A over the last few years)

Paula Jean Swearengin on Twitter: "@Meko4403 @AOC It's all semantics and theatrical at this point when she used #Medicare4All to enhance her career. I'm still mind blown that she considers this a career at all. She acted like she was the rest of struggling Americans to get elected." / Twitter

She got a response:
Meg Kremer on Twitter: "@paulajean2020 @AOC Theatre and culture wars are big. Maybe I am naive, but I think Bernie, AOC, and the rest do want medicare4All. Yet, it wasn't the ONLY thing she ran on. I'm not a single issue voter. I accept our system is jacked & change is slow." / Twitter

Then,
Paula Jean Swearengin on Twitter: "@Meko4403 @AOC She also campaigned on a livable wage, the green new deal and a federal jobs guarantee. *crickets*" / Twitter


Susan Sarandon, Paula Jean Swearengin Joining Action At AOC's Bronx Office Today Demanding She Fight For Medicare For All


PJS again:
Paula Jean Swearengin on Twitter: "Are we in this movement to give politicians a pass for the lies they tell or are we in it to build better & safer communities? I choose the latter. That is why I left the 2 party system. I'm tired of making excuses for people that wouldn't piss on us if we were on fire!" / Twitter

Meg Kremer on Twitter: "@paulajean2020 I would like a multi-party system also. In a way the in-fighting inside R/D show that there are at least two other possible strong parties. People need to vote in primaries , push for change, and continue to try to multip party, but I think it's kind of futile bc $" / Twitter
 
Back
Top Bottom